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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Against Sedevacantism (no. 911)  (Read 15612 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Eleison Comments - Against Sedevacantism (no. 911)
« on: December 28, 2024, 06:49:20 AM »
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  • December 28th, 2024EC No. CMXI (911)
    AGAINST SEDEVACANTISM
    How men behave must be by law refined,
    But law must follow reality close behind.
    The controversy over the resignation by Benedict XVI from the Papacy in February of 2013 continues to feed the argument over the vacancy of the Apostolic See – was that resignation valid or not? If it was valid, then the ensuing election of Pope Francis was not invalidated by Benedict still being in any way the valid Pope. But if Benedict’s resignation was doubtfully valid, then a doubt is left hanging over all Francis’ subsequent papacy, because Benedict only died in 2022 after Francis had acted as Pope for the space of nearly ten years. In the autumn of last year Bishop Athanasius Schneider wrote a most interesting article, accessible on the Internet, giving precious principles on the whole dispute of whether the Apostolic See (Latin “sedes”) is vacant or not.
    It may seem an idle dispute, but it is not. The Catholic Church is a worldwide organisation, strictly hierarchical, in which all parish priests depend upon valid diocesan bishops for their valid appointment to parishes, and those bishops depend in turn upon a valid Pope for their valid appointment to their dioceses. For the Church to be able to function, its head must be really existent, clearly identified and universally accepted. Of course several times in Church history the identity of the Pope has been disputed, notably during the Great Western Schism from 1378 to 1417, which saw at its end not just two but three candidates all claiming to be Pope. However, all Catholics knew that more than one Pope was most harmful to the Church, so the Schism lasted only 39 years.
    In that dispute, it is precious to observe how the Church judged of the validity of the popes in question. On the one hand Urban VII was duly elected in Rome in the papal conclave of 1378 amid huge pressure and threats, but he was accepted and recognised as Pope by all the cardinals who had elected him. The Church has come to see in him and in his successors the line of true and valid Popes. On the other hand, a few months later, French cardinals counter-elected a Frenchman as Pope Clement VII, who set up the Avignon papacy in Southern France. This line of “Popes” the Church has come to condemn as anti-popes. What is to be observed from this example and several others, especially in the Middle Ages, is that for a Pope to be valid the letter of the law is less important than the absolute need for the Church to have a single, visible, recognised and certain head.
    Thus Gregory VI bought his papacy in 1045 for a large sum of money, so that his election was strictly invalid, yet the Church has always recognised him as a valid Pope. In 1294 Pope Celestine V doubtfully resigned and Boniface VIII disputedly succeeded him, yet both events were “healed at the root,” or made valid afterwards, by their being universally accepted by Catholics, clergy and laity. This doctrine of an event, illegal at the time but being made legal afterwards, the Church applies to marriages and to papal elections, under certain conditions. For papal elections those conditions are that the new Pope should be immediately accepted as Pope by the Universal Church. This was surely the case of Pope Francis, when he greeted the crowd from a Vatican balcony overlooking St Peter’s Square just after his papal election, with all the election’s possible canonical faults.
    As for the disputed or doubtful resignation of Benedict XVI, opinions may differ, and the Church may decide with Authority what it meant, only after the Church emerges at last from the unprecedented crisis brought about by the splitting of Catholic Authority from Catholic Truth at the Second Vatican Council. However, based on the realistic principles laid out by Bishop Schneider in his article, it does not seem difficult to conclude that that resignation was both doubtful in itself and harmful in practice to the Church.
    Doubtful in itself, because God designed His Church as a monarchy, or rule of one, and not as a diarchy, or rule of two. God obviously meant His Vicar, or stand-in, to have at his disposal in Rome a whole aristocracy of officials to help him to rule the worldwide Church, but of that aristocracy he is the undisputed sole king. And harmful in practice, because Benedict’s distinction between “munus” (office) for himself and “ministerium” (ministry or work) for Francis, did not clearly exclude his own continuing to participate in the rule of the Church. However, who did rule the Church from Benedict’s resignation to his death? Not Benedict. And when Benedict died – was there a papal conclave? No. It is Francis who has been Pope, from 2013 until now.
    Kyrie eleison.

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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Against Sedevacantism (no. 911)
    « Reply #1 on: December 28, 2024, 06:59:06 AM »
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  • Bishop Williamson:
    so the Schism lasted only 39 years.

    ONLY 39 years ... just a trifle.

    Of course, if you're a Siri theorist like myself, we're ONLY on year 35 since the death of Pope Gregory XVIII in 1989.  :laugh1:

    Bishop Williamson also does not address the sedeprivationist position, which doesn't labor under these criticisms, nor the position of his own Fr. Chazal, one which is for all practical intents and purposes identical to that of sedeprivationism.

    AND, Bishop Williamson simply ingores, and doesn't even address, the main problem of the SVs.  OK, his contention is that the Church cannot function without ordinary jurisdiction (appointments, etc.) ... and yet somehow he's functioned for all these years without such ... but the Church CAN function when there's a free-for-all in terms of interpreting Tradition?  OK, we have a clown (or two clowns at one point) running around Rome in white cassocks?  So the Church CAN properly function when the Popes are spewing heresy, punishing actual Catholics, and promoting heretics?

    If the lack of a visible hierarchy (to which of course they only pay lip service ... "Yep, your'e valid.", but then do nothing consistent with their being said hierarchy -- in fact, the Resistance CRITICIZE the SSPX for attempting to work with said valid/legitimate hierarchy) causes problems for the Church, how about when the visible hierarchy is so badly undermining the Catholic faith and the public worship of the Church so as to make refusing submission to and communion with such a hierarchy not only permissible but even required, in ordert o keep the faith?  That doesn't cause problems?  What, then, is the point of having such a hierarchy?  Answer:  absolutely nothing.  We'd be better off without it.  So, Lord, this "rock" upon which you founded your Church ... well, thanks, but no thanks.


    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Against Sedevacantism (no. 911)
    « Reply #2 on: December 28, 2024, 07:25:50 AM »
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  • December 28th, 2024EC No. CMXI (911)
    In the autumn of last year Bishop Athanasius Schneider wrote a most interesting article, accessible on the Internet, giving precious principles on the whole dispute of whether the Apostolic See (Latin “sedes”) is vacant or not.

    8 critical flaws in Bishop Schneider's defense of a Francis papacy - LifeSite

    Benedict XVI’s own words prove that his resignation was invalid: a reply to Bishop Schneider - LifeSite

    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Against Sedevacantism (no. 911)
    « Reply #3 on: December 28, 2024, 09:44:16 AM »
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  • People can intend to be, think they are, and desire to be 100% for the truth and still fall into error.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Against Sedevacantism (no. 911)
    « Reply #4 on: December 28, 2024, 09:59:38 AM »
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  • @ 27:17 Padre says, the Sedevacantists are 100% for truth (though he catches himself before finishing) and Williamson nods in agreement and does not rebuff him - just reflect on that. If someone is 100% for Truth - then that is where the Church is.

    If the laity has the ability to know 100% what Truth is, then why would a Pope even be necessary? 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Against Sedevacantism (no. 911)
    « Reply #5 on: December 28, 2024, 10:13:04 AM »
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  • If the laity has the ability to know 100% what Truth is, then why would a Pope even be necessary?
    Agreed. I like the way Fr. Wathen considers it....

    "...So, what is so burdensome about all this (pope's duties)? Who, it might be asked, has an easier assignment? Everything has been instituted with incomparable wisdom. After almost two thousand years, the Church has developed into an organization of excellent structure. The doctrine is certain; the moral code is incontrovertible in the main; the divine liturgy has been (had been) refined to a perfection; the code of laws worked. In a word, the spiritual doctrine, the tradition, the authority, the experience, the customs, the supernatural objectives all have been established. With a little prudence and a little caution on the part of the pope, Holy Church will practically run itself..."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Against Sedevacantism (no. 911)
    « Reply #6 on: December 28, 2024, 10:17:50 AM »
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  • Exactly! "People" can err, the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Catholic Church cannot err - it is infallible. So that is what makes Bishop Williamson's assertion above problematic - to say the least.
    Not problematic at all if you actually believe "the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Catholic Church cannot err."

    "If these two Doctrines (infallibility and indefectibility) be true, then whatever the popes have said or done, whatever  they ever say or do, will not be a violation of the Church's attribute of infallibility. And no matter what anyone does, whether from within or without, he will not succeed in destroying the Church. The enemies of Christ's Church do not believe this, which explains why they will  never cease to try."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Against Sedevacantism (no. 911)
    « Reply #7 on: December 28, 2024, 12:21:18 PM »
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  • “Sede-vacantism” is a magical, talismanic word not unlike “anti-semitism”.

    For you see, the deadliest modern sin is to believe the Church was infiltrated & hijacked by ʝʊdɛօ-masons who implemented an internal schism against Roman Catholicism.

    This is why the SSPX’s duplicitous philosophy of “Recognize & Resist” has de-masculinated a good portion of remnant Catholics.

    And if you pay close attention to the “funded” trad Marrano media, you’ll understand that they are also attacking the sedes.

    Why?  Because ultimately, discounting the post 1958 fake popes and refusing to dialogue with the schism is “end game” for them.

    “Them” is the controlled opposition, just another tentacle of the Revolution.



    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Oldyank

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Against Sedevacantism (no. 911)
    « Reply #8 on: December 28, 2024, 12:55:46 PM »
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  • I am neither for or against the Sede position,  I kinda ignore the man.  The Lord said" If you love me, Keep my commandments". I think that is most important in the time we live.

    If we were to right a story about the church, Wouldn't it be more dramatic if the actual pope is the one crucifying the church instead of some imposter?  Like the high priest killing Christ.  Isn't this the worst punishment God can send us?
    And well deserved.  

    can anyone confirm this? Padre Pio said " In a short while, The pope will be in complete control of the devil and he will rule a false church.  I thought I read this somewhere.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Against Sedevacantism (no. 911)
    « Reply #9 on: December 28, 2024, 02:06:55 PM »
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  • I’m not even sure if Ratzinger was a valid pope, except in name only. 

    But I’m 100% sure that “Benedict” resigned in the way he did, to sow discord and confusion, like the heretic Modernist that he is.  

    So was Benedict the pope until his death?  Or is Francis the pope now?  Who cares, because they are both Modernist. 

    Whether we have a temporal-only, Modernist pope or no pope at all - practically speaking, it makes no difference, because either way, the Church is without a true Shepherd.  Bad pope or no pope - the end result is chaos, either way.  

    Offline songbird

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Against Sedevacantism (no. 911)
    « Reply #10 on: December 28, 2024, 02:57:18 PM »
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  • IMO PopePius XI was validly nominated and elected.  Then he went wrong in his pontificate.  He did not consecrate Russia, Our Lady was known to have said this, after the vision Lucia was told that the hour was then to consecrate Russia, 1927-29 about, after the vision of Tuy.  Our Lady was known to say to Lucia, "The pope did not heed the request, request of GOD!  Therefore She said, he (pope) will be like King Louis XIV.  The King refused to consecrate France to the Sacred Heart, he was dethroned and beheaded.  Hm?  Pope Pius XI lost his authority and the result was the Church without a head.  IMO this could have been the time for the 100 years permitted to Satan.

    Cardinal Manning wrote on that a pope can lose authority, can go wrong in their pontificate.


    Offline Oldyank

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Against Sedevacantism (no. 911)
    « Reply #11 on: December 28, 2024, 04:04:46 PM »
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  • I keep forgetting only sedes go to Heaven.
     

    Thank you Johannes for illuminating us little people who belong to a false religion. I am truly blessed for your wisdom and of course your humility,  God does really need you to spread His truth.    

    First, as St Augustine observes, The prophets spoke more plainly and openly of the church than of Christ, foreseeing that on this a much greater number may err and be deceived than on the mystery of the Incarnation. For in after ages there would not be wanting wicked men who, like an ape would fain to pass for a man, would claim that THEY ALONE WERE CATHOLICS, AND WITH NO LESS IMPIETY THAN EFFRONTERY ASSERT THAT WITH THEM ALONE IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

    Trent!

    Does this sound like Johannes?

    Offline Twice dyed

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    Pope under the power of devil
    « Reply #12 on: December 28, 2024, 04:43:29 PM »
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  • Quote:
    ....can anyone confirm this? Padre Pio said " In a short while, The pope will be in complete control of the devil and he will rule a false church.  I thought I read this somewhere....

    This is not Padre Pio  but good stuff.  ChatGPI or something. 
    ..


    The other article mentioned that in mid 1960's, Padre Pio would have told Karol Wojtila   in Poland , that he would become pope. 
    Is satan at work???!
    !!:incense:
    La mesure de l'amour, c'est d'aimer sans mesure.
    The measure of love is to love without measure.
                                     St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD)

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Against Sedevacantism (no. 911)
    « Reply #13 on: December 28, 2024, 05:24:37 PM »
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  • “Sede-vacantism” is a magical, talismanic word not unlike “anti-semitism”.

    For you see, the deadliest modern sin is to believe the Church was infiltrated & hijacked by ʝʊdɛօ-masons who implemented an internal schism against Roman Catholicism.

    This is why the SSPX’s duplicitous philosophy of “Recognize & Resist” has de-masculinated a good portion of remnant Catholics.

    And if you pay close attention to the “funded” trad Marrano media, you’ll understand that they are also attacking the sedes.

    Why?  Because ultimately, discounting the post 1958 fake popes and refusing to dialogue with the schism is “end game” for them.

    “Them” is the controlled opposition, just another tentacle of the Revolution.
    As something of a sede myself I think there is a much bigger issue than the Pope question, and that is the dogma of EENS being repeatedly denied by all trad groups 'officially'. (By 'group' I am only counting those with Priests/Bishops)

    The sede groups deny Vatican 2, but at the same time accept a docuмent that vatican 2 uses to teach salvation outside the Church because that same docuмent was used against Fr Feeney. 

    The SSPX is more CONSISTENT in this manner. Because they accept vatican 2.

    Somehow non-Catholics can actually be members of the Church without being members of the Body of Christ and can be saved outside the Church in some "exceptions". This is why 'Pope Francis' believes that all paths lead to God, he is simply being consistent with vatican 2. 

    Consistency is very important, it's why the SSPX's position on the new rites bothers me. If the Anglican rite and the Novus Ordo rite of ordination have the same problems, yet the Church already decreed the Anglican rite utterly null and void, then we should hold the Novus Ordo rite to the same standard.


    A deceitful balance is an abomination before the Lord: and a just weight is his will.
    [Proverbs 11:1]

    Weight and balance are judgments of the Lord: and his work all the weights of the bag.
    [Proverbs 16:11]

    Diverse weights and diverse measures, both are abominable before God.
    [Proverbs 20:10]

    Diverse weights are an abomination before the Lord: a deceitful balance is not good.
    [Proverbs 20:23]

    Ultimately I cannot say that I have the same faith as the person who is supposed to be the Pope, this is a problem.

    If he is in heresy, schism or apostasy then he would be automatically outside the Church as per Pope Pius 12th.
    Did he not also make heretical statements in his works before he became 'Pope', same as Ratzinger?
    If he doesn't have the Catholic faith how is he a member of the Church?
    If he isn't Catholic then how can he be the Pope?
    Can someone who isn't even a priest let alone a bishop be the Pope?

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Against Sedevacantism (no. 911)
    « Reply #14 on: December 28, 2024, 11:21:07 PM »
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  • I keep forgetting only sedes go to Heaven.
     

    Thank you Johannes for illuminating us little people who belong to a false religion. I am truly blessed for your wisdom and of course your humility,  God does really need you to spread His truth.   

    First, as St Augustine observes, The prophets spoke more plainly and openly of the church than of Christ, foreseeing that on this a much greater number may err and be deceived than on the mystery of the Incarnation. For in after ages there would not be wanting wicked men who, like an ape would fain to pass for a man, would claim that THEY ALONE WERE CATHOLICS, AND WITH NO LESS IMPIETY THAN EFFRONTERY ASSERT THAT WITH THEM ALONE IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

    Trent!

    Does this sound like Johannes?

    It does sound like Johannes. Well said. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29