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Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: Miseremini on August 29, 2020, 11:22:41 AM

Title: ELEISON COMMENTS #685 Vigano to be Diluted? Aug 29 A.D.3030
Post by: Miseremini on August 29, 2020, 11:22:41 AM

Number DCLXXXV (685)

August 29, 2020

Viganò to Be Diluted? The Shepherds have from God free-will to fail? Sheep then have Catholic sense still to prevail. In a series of recent statements in public, notably on June 9 the Italian Archbishop Carlo Viganò, still today member of the Church’s official hierarchy, has stood out from the mass of his colleagues in that hierarchy by taking a severe view of Vatican II. Now comes an Italian theologian, Fr. Alfredo Morselli, who seeks to moderate Archbishop Viganò’s severity not exactly by defending the Council, but by arguing for instance that it is not alone responsible for the crisis that has come over the Church in the years following the Council. Let us look at his “Thesis on the Council” which he has made public in nine main points and eight sub-points, here abbreviated:— 1 The present crisis is of unprecedented gravity, essentially neo-modernist, but much graver than the original modernist crisis at the beginning of the 20th century. 2 However, Vatican II is not simply the cause of the present crisis, because: 2.1 The crisis began long before 1960, 2.2 its neo-modernism would never have taken root without the deep corruption of modern man, and 2.3 similarly the pontificate of Pope Francis was prepared long before the 21st century. 3 We must distinguish between the Council itself and the post-Council, or aftermath of the Council: 3.1 The Council cannot be blamed for all errors attributed to it, even if they were done in its name, 3.2 The Holy Spirit was at the Council, so that one cannot say there was no good at all in the Council. 4 The Council texts do include ambiguous formulae, which give the neo-modernists an opening. 5 Almost all these problems have been solved subsequently by official Church Declarations. 6 The problems represent not so much errors as the desire to be inclusive rather than exclusive. 7 A tragic example of that desire is the Council’s refusal to condemn Communism. 8 Calling the Council “pastoral” does not mean that there is nothing dogmatic in its pronouncements. 9 One may only criticize the Council in accordance with Church teaching on the Faith. Hence 9.1 Faith means believing God, i.e. accepting and not choosing what truths one will believe. 9.2 The Catholic Church’s Magisterium is the prime decider of which are those truths to believe. 9.3 That Magisterium is not open to private interpretation. It alone can interpret its own decisions. And now the briefest of comments on each of these positions of Fr Morselli:— 1 This introductory point lays down how far Fr Morselli agrees with Archbishop Viganò. Bravo! 2 Who would blame an explosion exclusively on the detonator? Of course there must be explosives.< br />2.1 Indeed Vatican II had a long ancestry, notably the Protestant “Reformation” and 1789’s Revolution. 2.2 Absolutely true. The deep corruption of modern man has been centuries in the making. 2.3 Also true. Five Popes neo-modernist in principle prepared the sixth, merely blatantly so in practice. 3 Beware! – is he who unbolts the stable-door not to be blamed for the horse running away? 3.1 “I never meant for the horse to run away. I only wanted for it to be free to gallop in the sunshine!” 3.2 The Holy Spirit stopped the Council from being even worse, but left the Bishops their free-will . . . 4 The deadly ambiguities were planted by the neo-modernists, allowed to pass by the “Catholics.” 5 These “clarifications” in which Fr Morselli believes usually do not clarify, but maintain the problem. 6 Alas, it is the very desire to be inclusive that makes doors once firmly shut, open again to error. 7 Archbishop Lefebvre said, the refusal to condemn Communism will stigmatise this Council for ever. 8 Dreadful ambiguity: the “pastoral” Council was not dogmatic, but had to be followed like dogma! 9 “The poison is in the tail” – at the end, Fr Morselli falls back on the argument of Authority! – 9.1 Of course we must believe what truly comes from God, and not choose ourselves what to believe. 9.2 And of course, if God demands belief, as He does, He owes us an infallible Magisterium to decide. 9.3 But that Magisterium consists of fallible Church officials with free-will, which God will not take away, and if, exceptionally, they fail in their duty, He expects the sheep to judge them by their fruits. In brief, Archbishop Viganò’s severity, judging Vatican II by its fruits, surpasses Fr. Morselli’s Authority. Kyrie eleison.

Title: Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #685 Vigano to be Diluted? Aug 29 A.D.3030
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 29, 2020, 02:18:44 PM

It’s a good sign that they are trying to dilute Vigano.  

Perhaps the likes of Burke and Schneider will wake up.

Title: Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #685 Vigano to be Diluted? Aug 29 A.D.3030
Post by: Kazimierz on August 29, 2020, 03:50:02 PM

Wow, is it 3030 already? Gracious how those centuries just pass incredibly quickly. :( :laugh1:

I feel positively ancient now. ;)

Title: Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #685 Vigano to be Diluted? Aug 29 A.D.3030
Post by: RomanCatholic1953 on August 30, 2020, 01:05:03 PM

 The Council texts do include ambiguous formulae, which give the neo-modernists an opening.
5 Almost all these problems have been solved subsequently by official Church Declarations.
6 The problems represent not so much errors as the desire to be inclusive rather than exclusive.

I was not aware that there was any Church Declarations on the ambiguous formulae on any
Council Docuмents.
Are there any examples?  This is news to me.
Fr. Alfredo Morselli,  You need to foot note your declarations. 

Title: Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #685 Vigano to be Diluted? Aug 29 A.D.3030
Post by: John2020 on August 31, 2020, 07:51:27 PM

Archbishop Vigano uses strong language about Vatican II but I doubt whether he really understands the doctrinal issues involved; he never goes into much detail. What doesn't seem to have got much attention were his heretical opinions about what he called the "sons of light" and "children of the Woman". These apocalyptic phrases have always been understood to mean the Church, but Vigano says it now refers to the majority of mankind.He has subsctribed to the Bible Belt Protestant belief that we are at the end of the world, and the anti-Christ is somewhere between Bill Gates and the Pope. He is openly asking Catholics to surrender their independent political role and jump into bed with anti-Catholic nutters of all kinds, just because they hate Biden and the Pope. The children of the light apparently now means those aligned Trump's way in the upcoming elections.

Then there is The Remnant, which is Vigano's main mouthpiece. It has developed, over several recent issues of its print edition, a new and heretical doctrine about the See of Peter. The Church is no longer built upon the Rock of Peter, but the faith of Peter (just as in the Lutheran doctrine), or even upon all of us "little rocks".
There's much more going on than meets the eye.
Then of course, there's the fact that Vigano has never, ever, mentioned Archbishop Lefebvre, the one who opposed the errors of the Council from the start. Vigano was a fairly contented Vatican II style apparatchik for decades until he fell out with Pope Francis. But hating the Pope does alone not a real traditionalist make...

Title: Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #685 Vigano to be Diluted? Aug 29 A.D.3030
Post by: Struthio on August 31, 2020, 08:04:28 PM

Quote from: John2020 on August 31, 2020, 07:51:27 PM

Archbishop Vigano uses strong language about Vatican II but I doubt whether he really understands the doctrinal issues involved; he never goes into much detail. What doesn't seem to have got much attention were his heretical opinions about what he called the "sons of light" and "children of the Woman". These apocalyptic phrases have always been understood to mean the Church, but Vigano says it now refers to the majority of mankind.

Yes, and Viganò wants to dump what he himself calls a General Council. He is a manifest heretic. No true Catholic would want to dump a General Council of the Church.

Viganò is a clown to call Schneider's approach heretical (modernist) to belatedly reinterpret propositions of the robber council, and then on the other hand he himself proposes to dump what he (again) himself calls a General Council.

Furthermore, Viganò has a self-admitted record of 50 years of support of a "parallel church" (as he calls it) and doesn't even express any sort of regret for the hundreds of millions of souls which were lead astray by the shepherds of doom, one of which he was. Well, obviously, he still is.

Title: Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #685 Vigano to be Diluted? Aug 29 A.D.3030
Post by: DecemRationis on September 01, 2020, 07:00:39 AM

Quote from: John2020 on August 31, 2020, 07:51:27 PM

He has subsctribed to the Bible Belt Protestant belief that we are at the end of the world . . .

Well, where exactly are we when the duly-elected and appointed popes and bishops of the Church have revolted from the Gospel and the faith of Christ and seek to set up a humanitarian, pan-religious nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr? This is the post-Enlightenment equivalent under the New Covenant in the "last age" of Israel turning to worship Baal or Moloch or Mammon (take your pick) and rejecting the LORD.

Everything the Church has been through the last 50 plus years makes this appear to be the revolt/apostasy (Latin discessio) said by St. Paul to precede the "day of the Lord" in 2 Thessalonians 2:

(http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=60&ch=2&l=2-#x)

Quote

[2] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=60&ch=2&l=2-#x) That you be not easily moved from your sense, nor be terrified, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by epistle, as sent from us, as if the day of the Lord were at hand.
ut non cito moveamini a vestro sensu, neque terreamini, neque per spiritum, neque per sermonem, neque per epistolam tamquam per nos missam, quasi instet dies Domini.

[3] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=60&ch=2&l=3-#x) Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
Ne quis vos seducat ullo modo : quoniam nisi venerit discessio primum, et revelatus fuerit homo peccati filius perditionis,

[4] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=60&ch=2&l=4-#x) Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God.
qui adversatur, et extollitur supra omne, quod dicitur Deus, aut quod colitur, ita ut in templo Dei sedeat ostendens se tamquam sit Deus.

[5] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=60&ch=2&l=5-#x) Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
Non retinetis quod cuм adhuc essem apud vos, haec dicebam vobis?

http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/60002.htm

Title: Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #685 Vigano to be Diluted? Aug 29 A.D.3030
Post by: John2020 on September 01, 2020, 08:14:04 AM

Well, a modernist Pope, terrible though it is (and Archbishop Lefebvre had a lot to say about this), is not the anti-Christ or the end of the world. Not withstanding the Protestant determination to see the See of Peter as the seat of the anti-Christ, there is nothing in the Bible or any Catholic prophecy which predicts such a thing.

Instead we have the First Vatican Council, which defined as doctrine that the Papacy will be with us to represent Christ until the end of the world. A lot of things need to occur before the end. The Church has done a lot to encourage Fatima, which tells us that in the end Russia will be converted. It's a world away from the Bible belt idiots.

Title: Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #685 Vigano to be Diluted? Aug 29 A.D.3030
Post by: Ladislaus on September 01, 2020, 09:33:20 AM

Quote from: Struthio on August 31, 2020, 08:04:28 PM

Yes, and Viganò wants to dump what he himself calls a General Council. He is a manifest heretic. No true Catholic would want to dump a General Council of the Church.

Very few people become sedevacantists overnight.  It's a very shocking conclusion to someone who believed all this time that this was the Church.

Every sedevacantist I know spent some time transitioning through R&R.  Once you realize that the Council was positively defective and unsalvageable, then one must ponder how that fits with the indefectibility of the Church.  +Vigano is still early on his thinking process.  Perhaps some of those in the NO who have criticized him for this stance will cause him to reflect.

Basically, +Vigano's position is similar to that of The Resistance right now, and to Father Chazal in particular, that the entire thing is garbage.  So do you accuse The Resistance also of being manifest heretics?

You and many sedevacantists abuse the term "manifest" heresy and make no room for lack of pertinacity and material error.  Not only the heresy, but also the pertinacity in heresy must be "manifest".  I fail to detect anything pertinacious on the part of +Vigano; he appears to be quite sincere in his desire to keep the Catholic faith.

Title: Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #685 Vigano to be Diluted? Aug 29 A.D.3030
Post by: Meg on September 01, 2020, 10:43:38 AM

Quote from: John2020 on August 31, 2020, 07:51:27 PM

Then there is The Remnant, which is Vigano's main mouthpiece. It has developed, over several recent issues of its print edition, a new and heretical doctrine about the See of Peter. The Church is no longer built upon the Rock of Peter, but the faith of Peter (just as in the Lutheran doctrine), or even upon all of us "little rocks".
There's much more going on than meets the eye.
Then of course, there's the fact that Vigano has never, ever, mentioned Archbishop Lefebvre, the one who opposed the errors of the Council from the start. Vigano was a fairly contented Vatican II style apparatchik for decades until he fell out with Pope Francis. But hating the Pope does alone not a real traditionalist make...

Can give the name of the articles in the print editions of the Remnant where this is stated? Thanks.

Yes, it is a problem that Vigano has not mentioned +ABL. He has, however, mentioned, 'Lefebvrists,' so he knows about +ABL. I've assumed that he doesn't want to offend his Opus Dei contacts by referring to +ABL. Just a guess though.

I've not seen where Vigano has indicated that he hates the Pope. Can you provide some context for your assertion regarding this?

Title: Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #685 Vigano to be Diluted? Aug 29 A.D.3030
Post by: John2020 on September 01, 2020, 10:07:31 PM

Yes. The Remnant's heretical views were published in a series of articles under the name Toni McCarthy:
30/4/2020: “Not dependent on a Worldly Hierarchy in times of crisis. As the above Scripture passages clarify, God’s people are not all those who belong to the specific organisation of the Church”.

This ties in with Vigano's heresy that most of mankind are "the children of Light", an Assisi-like ecuмenism if ever there was.Vigano does not believe the Papacy to be among "the children of Light", but members of other religions apparently are, for he believes (Vigano letter to Trump) that most of the world's population are the "children of light" and "offspring of the woman", i.e., the Church. In the Trump letter, Vigano doesn't state the "offspring of the Woman" or "sons of light" is the Catholic Church, yet he says he borrowed these terms from the Bible, where they have always been understood to mean the Church. He now sees most of mankind (but not the institutional Church) engaged in an end-times battle with the sons of the "serpent". This is a Protestant eschatology that Catholics have always rejected.

The Remnant 15/5/2020:  “It is therefore imperative to reconsider a commonly-held interpretation of Christ’s promise of indefectibility…”...
“… one must reason that if Peter, the man, is the rock on which the true Church is built, which appears to be a commonly-held belief, then confused and disheartened Catholics must believe that the gates of hell will not prevail against the errant Church of Vatican II… If, on the other hand, Christ himself is the rock on which the true Church is built – if He promised to built his indefectible Church upon the faith of St. Peter, then He is our living leader.”

31/5/2020:  “… if Christians believe the promise of indefectibility belongs to the chair of Peter, they will surely feel betrayed confused and disheartened… If, on the other hand, one believes that Christ is the rock… and that the living church is composed of all the faithful throughout the ages, one can draw near to the Lord”
The notion that the Rock upon which Christ built his Church is not Peter, but Christ, or the faith of Peter, is a Lutheran interpretation. The Remnant and Vigano need prayers.

As for Vigano hating Pope Francis, where doesn't he speak of the Pope except in terms of contempt? No comparison with Archbishop Lefebvre. Vigano is a Vatican functionary who fell out with Francis. He rarely criticises other Conciliar Popes, and never with contempt. The issue is personal, not doctrinal. Vigano's doctrinal issues are many times worse than those of Pope Francis.

Title: Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #685 Vigano to be Diluted? Aug 29 A.D.3030
Post by: Meg on September 02, 2020, 04:15:57 PM

Thank you for providing the Remnant quotes. It seems that the Remnant is okay with the Protestant idea that Jesus is the Rock, instead of Peter. That is a problem, but not all that surprising. The Remnant itself seems somewhat ecuмenical, in that it tries to please several sides of tradition (maybe like Opus Dei pretends to do?)

I didn't read the 'children of Light' piece by Vigano. I missed that one. Which of his communications is it from?

I don't recall detecting that Vigano has personal animosity toward Francis. But then, I'm not a fan of Francis. He's the Pope, but a poor specimen to be sure.

As was posted in another thread, +ABL was very critical of JP2's actions at Assisi. +ABL also said later that Rome is in apostasy. He didn't single out the Popes (which the Sedes wanted him to have done) in his accusation of apostasy. For him, the problem of Modernism is systemic in the conciliar church.

It is troubling that Vigano does not implicate B16 or JP2; both of whom were/are Modernists. Not sure what's up with that.

Title: Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #685 Vigano to be Diluted? Aug 29 A.D.3030
Post by: SeanJohnson on September 02, 2020, 04:48:03 PM

Quote from: Meg on September 02, 2020, 04:15:57 PM

It is troubling that Vigano does not implicate B16 or JP2; both of whom were/are Modernists. Not sure what's up with that.

He implicated them all:

In his various letters he has rejected the Council of John XXIII/Paul VI, the Mass of Paul VI, Assisi and the “excommunication” of Lefebvre under JPII, the hermeneutic of continuity of BXVI, and the entire counterfeit church all of them established.

He’s harder on Francis because as he explains in his June 10 letter, there has been an acceleration of the revolution under his pontificate.

Title: Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #685 Vigano to be Diluted? Aug 29 A.D.3030
Post by: John2020 on September 02, 2020, 08:04:23 PM

In his latest letter, Vigano talks about the "globalist apostasy" of "this pontificate". He has never referred to the other post-conciliar Popes in that way. But then, in the same breath he praises the SSPX, he clearly does not accept the legitimacy of this pontificate, thus contraditing the SSPX. Read his latest letter. It's way beyond sedevacantism, because, like The Remnant, he questions the Papacy itself as traditionally understood. i.e., the "People of God" and "Children of Light" (in Vigano's letter to Trump) thesis versus what he calls the "institutional" Church. However, that institutional Church, corrupt as it may be in so many areas, was the ONLY one recognised by Archbishop Lefebvre.

Vigano's next move: to start criticising the SSPX for recognising the Papacy of Pope Francis. This is why he has never mentioned the SSPX or Archbishop Lefebvre till now. He doesn't like them because they are in the Church.

Title: Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #685 Vigano to be Diluted? Aug 29 A.D.3030
Post by: John2020 on September 02, 2020, 08:49:44 PM

Vigano, in the same breath he praises the SSPX and Archbishop Lefebvre, refutes their position of loyalty to the Papacy. He tries to implicate Bishop Tissier de Mallerais in his Protestantism. Vigano's next move: to start attacking the SSPX for continuing to be members of the Church he clearly has rejected (his latest letter makes it too clear he does not accept the legitimacy of the Papacy of today).

Here's Bishop Tissier de Mallerais in an interview he have to La Porte Latine, published by the US district of the SSPX on its online news bulletin, 25/3/2016:

"It was this devotion, this respect for the popes, not for their person, but because of their function, that always kept Marcel Lefebvre from any offensive reaction or words against the conciliar popes. And it was the consideration of the permanence of the supreme pontifical function under the errors of these equivocal popes that kept him from falling into sedevacantism, that error of those who, rightly scandalized by the errors of these pontiffs, wrongly conclude that they have lost their function of pope. He continued to go to Rome, to visit the liberal or modernist prelates, “to try to convert them,” he would say, or at least to get them “to tolerate us at least” and again to recognize canonically the Priestly Society of St. Pius X (after its supposed suppression on May 6, 1975), and to “recognize us as we are”, he used to say. Those were his politics with Rome for 15 years: from the supposed "suppression" of the Society in 1975 until his death in 1991."

Title: Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #685 Vigano to be Diluted? Aug 29 A.D.3030
Post by: DecemRationis on September 03, 2020, 04:15:34 PM

Quote from: John2020 on September 01, 2020, 08:14:04 AM

Well, a modernist Pope, terrible though it is (and Archbishop Lefebvre had a lot to say about this), is not the anti-Christ or the end of the world. Not withstanding the Protestant determination to see the See of Peter as the seat of the anti-Christ, there is nothing in the Bible or any Catholic prophecy which predicts such a thing.

The Bible prophecies about the anti-Christ and end of the world certainly have enough play in them to allow an anti-pope sitting in Rome as the Anti-Christ. By way of quick Biblical shorthand, he's referred to as the "Son of Perdition," a title only otherwise used in Scripture of the apostate false apostle, Judas. It would be wise to see that as a "hint." 

If by "Catholic prophecy" you mean the Magisterium, well, no . . . for the Magisterium to say that a false magisterium and an anti-pope would appear as the real pope and Magisterium before Christ's return would be like a lumberjack hacking away at a tree and before it fell climbing up on a high branch and yelling "timber." 

It would be like a High Priest of Israel prophesying that a successor was to have the Messiah killed. 

Not happening . . . but true nonetheless. 

If by "Catholic prophecy" you mean Catholic prophets - Fathers of the Church, saints and mystics, you're wrong. 

Start reading this thread:

https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/ (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/)

Title: Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #685 Vigano to be Diluted? Aug 29 A.D.3030
Post by: John2020 on September 03, 2020, 08:40:46 PM

Sorry, that's the Protestant interpretation of the Bible.
And, no. There are no Catholic prophecies announcing the anti-Christ in the See of Peter.

Title: Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #685 Vigano to be Diluted? Aug 29 A.D.3030
Post by: John2020 on September 03, 2020, 08:44:53 PM

As defined by the First Vatican Council:

“That which our lord Jesus Christ, the prince of shepherds and great shepherd of the sheep, established in the blessed apostle Peter, for the continual salvation and permanent benefit of the church, must of necessity remain for ever, by Christ’s authority, in the church which, founded as it is upon a rock, will stand firm until the end of time.”

Title: Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #685 Vigano to be Diluted? Aug 29 A.D.3030
Post by: richard on September 07, 2020, 05:17:40 AM

Quote from: John2020 on September 03, 2020, 08:40:46 PM

Sorry, that's the Protestant interpretation of the Bible.
And, no. There are no Catholic prophecies announcing the anti-Christ in the See of Peter.

« Rome will loose the Faith, it will become the seat of the anti-Christ. »
Our Lady Of LaSallete

Title: Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #685 Vigano to be Diluted? Aug 29 A.D.3030
Post by: DecemRationis on September 07, 2020, 07:00:34 AM

Quote from: richard on September 07, 2020, 05:17:40 AM

Quote from: John2020 on September 03, 2020, 08:40:46 PM (https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/eleison-comments-685-vigano-to-be-diluted-aug-29-a-d-3030/msg713432/#msg713432)

Quote

Sorry, that's the Protestant interpretation of the Bible.
And, no. There are no Catholic prophecies announcing the anti-Christ in the See of Peter.

« Rome will loose the Faith, it will become the seat of the anti-Christ. »
Our Lady Of LaSallete

Richard,

Years of discussing these things on the internet have shown me that often a point is reached where continuing a discussion is pointless. You simply make your point, and move on and leave the rest up to the LORD and His infallible will, part of which is the use of His Word for judgment (as well as salvation) - 2 Cor. 2:14-17. 

Quote

Psalm 24


[14] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=21&ch=24&l=14-#x) The Lord is a firmament to them that fear him: and his covenant shall be made manifest to them.
Firmamentum est Dominus timentibus eum; et testamentum ipsius ut manifestetur illis.

http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/21024.htm

I am not saying this with particular relevance to John2020, just noting the overarching principle.