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Putin?1. The "Orthodox" are schismatics, not Catholics.
Without the moral values that are rooted in Christianity and other world religions, without rules and moral values that have been formed and developed over thousands of years, people inevitably lose their human dignity. As for ourselves we think it is right and natural to defend these moral values coming from Christianity. We must respect the right to self-determination of every minority, but by the same token there cannot and must not be any doubt about the rights of the majority.
Blessed are the peace makers. A strong argument can be made and certainly has been made by a good number of fairly knowledgeable people that Putin has more or less prevented World War III on more than one occasion. No small accomplishment!To equate "peace" with "world not at war" seems more that a bit sophistic.
The monthly newsletter Catholic Candle ran a big article in their October 2017 issue titled "The Fake Resistance Bishops Refer to Godless and Heretical Russia as “Holy Russia”Okay?
1. The "Orthodox" are schismatics, not Catholics.https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B49oPuI54eEGTF92S2laQVNtWFE/view (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B49oPuI54eEGTF92S2laQVNtWFE/view)
2. Non-Catholics can only be said to be "Christian" in a very loose, secular sense.
What is quoted here is not Catholic/Christian, but it 'sounds nice".
"The enemy of my enemy..." ... gets the bottom of the mag, and as much as this will tick people off, assessing a Putin to be such an enemy verges on the Pollyanna at best.
This is just more Hegel and a bagel, so don't be so hungry that you eat poison, or thirsty that you drink bleach.
When everything in the world around us is being turned upside down, it should not surprise us to find the Pope talking like a Communist politician and the leader of Russia talking like a Catholic Pope."In the country of blind men, the one eyed man is a king".
“In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, which will be converted, and a period of peace will be given to mankind.”
Fr. Denis Fahey, The Kingship of Christ and the Conversion of the Jєωιѕн Nation (1953), p. 52: “The Jews, as a nation, are objectively aiming at giving society a direction which is in complete opposition to the order God wants. It is possible that a member of the Jєωιѕн Nation, who rejects Our Lord, may have the supernatural life which God wishes to see in every soul, and so be good with the goodness God wants, but objectively, the direction he is seeking to give to the world is opposed to God and to that life, and therefore is not good. If a Jew who rejects our Lord is good in the way God demands, it is in spite of the movement in which he and his nation are engaged.”I read all of Fr. Fahey's books. I remember when I read this line, I thought "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema" Gal 1:8. It served as an example that we follow truth, not personalities.
I hope Bp. Williamson provides a follow-up to this E.C. since it seems to have caused a good deal of contention in the ranks..
1. The "Orthodox" are schismatics, not Catholics.I am trying desperately to keep a grip on my emotions. Imagine the good bishop suggesting that Putin may
2. Non-Catholics can only be said to be "Christian" in a very loose, secular sense.
What is quoted here is not Catholic/Christian, but it 'sounds nice".
I hope Bp. Williamson provides a follow-up to this E.C. since it seems to have caused a good deal of contention in the ranks
I am trying desperately to keep a grip on my emotions. Imagine the good bishop suggesting that Putin mayFeel better?
be more truly papal than the reigning pope of Rome; and that Bergoglio behaves more like a communist than a true pope. Isn't Putin, after all, "Orthodox?" He is, what is more, a (yikes) schismatic. So we really can't call him a Christian at all, except in "a very loose, secular sense." Granted , there are some of us who refuse to call Bergoglio a Christian in even the loosest sense of the word. But that's another matter. I mean, Bergoglio may not be a schismatic, but, at the very least, he seems to be an arch-heretic. Does that count for nothing?
Meanwhile, This guy Putin carries on as if he were a real Christian. Such cheek! Why, I'll bet that Putin probably doesn't even know who true traditional Catholics like us are, much less anything about our direct lineal descent from the Archbishop. Shameful!
I'm not sure a follow-up is required. I don't think there is much contention among forum members who can
manage to think themselves out of a paper bag.
https://vimeo.com/188218137 (https://vimeo.com/188218137)Fr. Kramer's report on the Putin-Francis meeting was actually a "he said, he said" story. In a court of law -- and granted we are not in a court of law -- it would be referred to as double hearsay and hence doubly unreliable as to be non-permissible as proof of that which was asserted by it. Go to the Fr. Kramer video if you have not already and listen to it for yourself if you doubt my word on this. I hope that Putin did desire to speak to the pope about Fatima, but I am certainly not going to place any stock in Fr. Kramer's double hearsay report on same. The jury is apparently out/silent on Fr. Gruner's report. If Putin is so informed about Fatima and believes in it and desires the Consecration he is certainly free to make a public request of Francis for the Consecration. He has certainly made a good number of other public requests of world leaders.
Feel better?
DZ:Great post Holly! Allow me to repeat what I said in an earlier post in this thread: "Blessed are the peacemakers. A strong argument can be made and certainly has been made by a good number of fairly knowledgeable people that Putin has more or less prevented World War III on more than one occasion. No small accomplishment!"
Do you mean, DZ: do I feel better because I've been able to get it all off my chest? Not exactly. I would like to think that I might come among you all from time to time, and get some useful direction and positive enlightenment. But that seldom happens. To be told what a real Christian is or is not is really not what I'm after. I find it disappointing when an average, uncredentialed forum member ,(a category into which I fall as well), starts to lecture us about the authenticity and quality of a very prominent world leader's Christian profession, which does not square with that forum member's own preconceived (trad) notions. It is just possible that Putin, though he is not a Catholic, though he may not know anything about 'traditional Catholicism,' or about sspx perfidy, or about the heresies of pope Francis and the New Order, or about sedevacantism, or about the so-called "Resistance," etc. he may be more truly and wholesomely Christian than many of us who are well acquainted with these matters. Just possibly, because Putin seems often to act and behave in an exemplary Christian manner, his faith may be far more than just a "secular" veneer.
(BTW, I had no control over my last post appearing in 20pt type face. I should have previewed it before posting. This post should appear normal.)
It appears that your understanding of "Blessed are the peacemakers" is of a worldly nature.Thank you GJC for the informative and spiritually edifying contribution from St. Augustine.
So, I would like to share with you and others St Augustine's angelic view of "Blessed are the peacemakers" from book one Sermon on the mount:
9. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm). It is the perfection of peace, where nothing offers opposition; and the children of God are peacemakers, because nothing resists God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm), and surely children ought to have the likeness of their father. Now, they are peacemakers in themselves who, by bringing in order all the motions of their soul (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm), and subjecting them to reason— i.e. to the mind and spirit— and by having their carnal lusts (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09438a.htm) thoroughly subdued, become a kingdom of God: in which all things are so arranged, that that which is chief and pre-eminent in man rules without resistance over the other elements, which are common to us with the beasts; and that very element which is pre-eminent in man, i.e. mind and reason, is brought under subjection to something better still, which is the truth (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm) itself, the only-begotten Son of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14142b.htm). For a man is not able to rule over things which are inferior, unless he subjects himself to what is superior. And this is the peace which is given on earth to men of goodwill; this the life of the fully developed and perfect wise man. From a kingdom of this sort brought to a condition of thorough peace and order, the prince of this world is cast out, who rules where there is perversity and disorder. When this peace has been inwardly established and confirmed, whatever persecutions (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11703a.htm) he who has been cast out shall stir up from without, he only increases the glory (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06585a.htm) which is according to God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm); being unable to shake anything in that edifice, but by the failure of his machinations making it to be known (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08673a.htm) with how great strength it has been built from within outwardly. Hence there follows: Blessed are they which are persecuted (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11703a.htm) for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08646a.htm).
Do you see how this would not be relevant to the prevention of war?
DZ:Bullshit.
Do you mean, DZ: do I feel better because I've been able to get it all off my chest? Not exactly. I would like to think that I might come among you all from time to time, and get some useful direction and positive enlightenment. But that seldom happens. To be told what a real Christian is or is not is really not what I'm after. I find it disappointing when an average, uncredentialed forum member ,(a category into which I fall as well), starts to lecture us about the authenticity and quality of a very prominent world leader's Christian profession, which does not square with that forum member's own preconceived (trad) notions. It is just possible that Putin, though he is not a Catholic, though he may not know anything about 'traditional Catholicism,' or about sspx perfidy, or about the heresies of pope Francis and the New Order, or about sedevacantism, or about the so-called "Resistance," etc. he may be more truly and wholesomely Christian than many of us who are well acquainted with these matters. Just possibly, because Putin seems often to act and behave in an exemplary Christian manner, his faith may be far more than just a "secular" veneer.
(BTW, I had no control over my last post appearing in 20pt type face. I should have previewed it before posting. This post should appear normal.)
DZ: Bullshit.
Thank you, DZ, for giving us a glimpse into the remarkable depth of your intellect, and for confirming to all your unquestioned probity. Another poster adds to your original contention that Putin's Christianity is merely on the surface and not very genuine. This forum member suggests that even Putin's peacemaking efforts are suspect. He is not a peacemaker in the Augustinian sense of the word. I think you and GLC might get along very well together. Through a joint effort you might even be able to set the good bishop straight.Whether gilding lilies or polishing turds, BS is BS as much as we'd like ours to be noble, deeply significant, and chock full of pathos.
Gilding lilies, or polishing turds, BS is BS as much as we'd like ours to be noble, deeply significant, and chock full of pathos.At least road apples and cow paddies smell a whole lot better than what comes out of humans.
It doesn't take a PhD to know which end of the horse is for apples.
At least road apples and cow paddies smell a whole lot better than what comes out of humans.By-and-large, I'd have to agree ma'am.
Absolutely and Absolutely.Are you declaring on this forum that you KNOW what the SUBJECTIVE state of Vladimir Putin's soul is and that it is the state of mortal sin? Also, do you deny the possibility that Vladmir Putin may have actually prayed to God petitioning Him for the courage and wisdom to act and or refrain from acting in such a way so as to prevent war and sustain peace and that God may have actually granted him his petition thus allowing him the courage and wisdom to act and or refrain from acting in such a way so as to prevent war and sustain peace?
Matter of fact it is the duty of every Catholic to point it out, see St. Bellarmine for more instruction.
Schismatics are not holy, not part of the Church and in mortal sin. The hope of course is for conversion.
Schismatics serve the devil, that is why they are not children of God. The hope is the same, they convert and serve God with the time they have left.
These are basis Catholic principles here, aren't they?
Feel better?.
I would ask the bishop if he agrees with St. Bellarmine?I would suggest that he does not agree, as he refuses to see Francis for what his external works judge him to be. That is a much more important question than Vladimir Putin's religious classification.
...for men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple , and condemn him as a heretic. St. Bellarmine
Schismatic can be substituted for heretic because it is of faith that neither will find life everlasting.
Yes, 100%. Not only do I declare it on this forum, but to the WHOLE world. Putin is not a Catholic.
"... The Eastern Church..."If only Holy Russia became Catholic once more,
...
:-X
It is clear that by the expression "Holy Russia", the 4 bishops wanted to say to the Blessed Virgin Mary : "Please, bring this country (Russia), by its natural inclination to religion, into the Catholic Church." A little bit like Pius XII said when he consecrated the world to the Virgin Mary : "Mother of God, please bring back Russians, who have a special devotion to You, into the Catholic Church."Thank you John XYZ, you have resonated my thoughts almost "to a T..." I wish I had a better ability to articulate my thoughts concisely.
The term "holy" doesn't express holiness in a Catholic sense (in that situation), it expresses a natural disposition of Russian people to religion. If you read the text of the Consecration, the meaning is really clear : "If only Holy Russia became Catholic once more, the Eastern Church might resurrect the Western Church, presently devastated by materialism and atheism." (Bishop Williamson, Fatima Consecration – II).
In other words, we could say : "If Russia used its natural inclination to religion to defend and follow the Catholic Church, the Eastern Church might resurrect the Western Church, presently devastated by materialism and atheism."
If Bishop Williamson believed that Russia is "holy" in the Catholic sense (he certainly doesn't), he would not pray so much for the conversion of Russia. If a country is "holy" in the Catholic sense, it doesn't need to convert. It's common sense! Therefore, it would be illogical to say that in this case, Bishop Williamson used the term 'holy' in a Catholic sense.
Also, Bishop Williamson doesn't believe a false religion can be a source of holiness. He made a conference in France, just a few days ago and he firmly condemned the errors of the Second Vatican in "Lumen Gentium".
Here are some of the statements of the good Bishop who express clearly his positions on the errors of the Second Vatican Council and the necessity of the conversion of Russia :
Bishop Williamson : the necessity of following the one true Church
"Our Divin Lord said : " I am the Way, the Truth and the Life " and he said : " I am God and if you want to get to Heaven, you must believe in Me". And that's not outrageous and Our Lord prove it wasn't outrageous by dying on the cross. He died a horrible death on the cross to prove his love for us human beings. He loved us even unto death and if we want to go to His Heaven then, we need to believe him and do what he says which is to believe, to be baptized and to be a member of His Church. And he got a right to say that because he's God." (Bishop Williamson, Window On The World part 1, starts at 10:31)
"the way to be happy for Eternity is to die in the arms of the Catholic Religion, in the arms of the Catholic Church." (Bishop Williamson, Window On The World part 1, starts at 9:50)
"if Eternity in Heaven is salvation, then you have to go through Our Lord Jesus Christ who was the one and the only incarnate God, the one only time God took human nature, become human being in order to die on the cross and open Heaven for souls (Bishop Williamson, Window On The World part 1, starts at 9:51)
Bishop Williamson : Russia need to be converted
"But if the Consecration [of Russia] is done, then the situation changes. And it's very possible, that's the moment when the Russians become Catholic, without becoming Latin, they will become Catholic without becoming Latin. The Latin form of Catholicism is not the only form of Catholicism. But the Russian Orthodox will be purged from whatever is schismatic and heretic in it and then it may well be, will lead, Russia will lead a religious revival in [...] the humiliated and chastised West." (Bishop Richard Williamson - Remembrance Sunday mass, starts at 27:46)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9FbVQTNuYo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9FbVQTNuYo)
The Church informs us that we are not even supposed to go around stating someone, other than perhaps Judas and, of course, the fallen angels, are in hell.re: The Church informs us that we are not even supposed to go around stating someone, other than perhaps Judas and, of course, the fallen angels, are in hell.
As far as I can ascertain Putin received a valid baptism, one recognized for its validity by the Roman Catholic Church. As I think we all know, sanctifying grace is gained by baptism and only lost by mortal sin.
re: The Church informs us that we are not even supposed to go around stating someone, other than perhaps Judas and, of course, the fallen angels, are in hell.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sjfd4hnE-PI
That keeps being repeated by people in the Novus Ordo, but there is no such teaching. Everyone who dies outside of the Church is in hell.
The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Pope St. Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:
“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.
Moreover, Putin is no different than all baptized heretics, he is a heretic and outside of the Church where there is no sanctifying grace. Putin is no different than Billy Graham or any other "conservative Christian, ALL on the road to hell.
I am surprised to say the least at your mind reading ability GJC, especially if you are an educated Catholic. Unlike you, I dare not make any claim to KNOW what the state of Vladimir Putin's soul is in, nor any other person's soul on this Earth is in other than my very own.Klas, I would have commented earlier on your excellent post, but, I figured, most forum members probably realized how right you were, would allow your argument to stand on its own merits, and offer no further challenges. Not so glc.
I'd be interested to know if you can state on this forum any SSPX priest or SSPX bishop or any resistance priest or bishop who would openly declare to the whole world like yourself that Vladimir Putin's soul is presently in the state of mortal sin.
klas:Klas, I would have commented earlier on your excellent post, but, I figured, most forum members probably realized how right you were, would allow your argument to stand on its own merits, and offer no further challenges. Not so glc.Thanks for the kind words Holly!
Alas, glc, as massive as his intellect may be, crumbled in the face of your reasoned and balanced remarks. Unable to help himself, I guess, he shot back with a weak, not so clever rejoinder, giving you the NO layman of the month award. Wow! Dear me!
If significant numbers of trads can do no better than this, (and I hope it is not the case), then we are in deeper trouble than I originally thought. In this period of "diabolical disorientation," we all have a right to be confused and unclear about a lot of things. But I'm not so sure that we have a similar right to be bigoted and stupid.