Author Topic: ELEISON COMMENTS #535 PUTIN SPEAKS Oct. 18 A.D. 2017  (Read 2823 times)

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Offline hollingsworth

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Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #535 PUTIN SPEAKS Oct. 18 A.D. 2017
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2017, 12:45:58 PM »
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  • glc:
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    Yes, 100%. Not only do I declare it on this forum, but to the WHOLE world. Putin is not a Catholic.

    Wow, this is serious.  glc does not merely confine his remarks to this little forum.  He declares them to the whole world!!!!!!!!
    This is serious stuff.  The earth is teetering on its axis.  Now if dz comes along and makes a similar declaration, it could mean the end of Western Civilization as we know it. :o

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #535 PUTIN SPEAKS Oct. 18 A.D. 2017
    « Reply #46 on: October 21, 2017, 12:54:03 PM »
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  • It's like "Noel Coward" going on about scene chewing...
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline John XYZ

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #535 PUTIN SPEAKS Oct. 18 A.D. 2017
    « Reply #47 on: October 21, 2017, 02:34:36 PM »
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  • It is clear that by the expression "Holy Russia", the 4 bishops wanted to say to the Blessed Virgin Mary : "Please, bring this country (Russia), by its natural inclination to religion, into the Catholic Church." A little bit like Pius XII said when he consecrated the world to the Virgin Mary : "Mother of God, please bring back Russians, who have a special devotion to You, into the Catholic Church."


    The term "holy" doesn't express holiness in a Catholic sense (in that situation), it expresses a natural disposition of Russian people to religion. If you read the text of the Consecration, the meaning is really clear : "If only Holy Russia became Catholic once more, the Eastern Church might resurrect the Western Church, presently devastated by materialism and atheism." (Bishop Williamson, Fatima Consecration II).

    In other words, we could say : "If Russia used its natural inclination to religion to defend and follow the Catholic Church, the Eastern Church might resurrect the Western Church, presently devastated by materialism and atheism."

    If Bishop Williamson believed that Russia is "holy" in the Catholic sense (he certainly doesn't), he would not pray so much for the conversion of Russia. If a country is "holy" in the Catholic sense, it doesn't need to convert. It's common sense! Therefore, it would be illogical to say that in this case, Bishop Williamson used the term 'holy' in a Catholic sense.

     
    Also, Bishop Williamson doesn't believe a false religion can be a source of holiness. He made a conference in France, just a few days ago and he firmly condemned the errors of the Second Vatican in "Lumen Gentium".

     
    Here are some of the statements of the good Bishop who express clearly his positions on the errors of the Second Vatican Council and the necessity of the conversion of Russia :

     
    Bishop Williamson : the necessity of following the one true Church

     
    "Our Divin Lord said : " I am the Way, the Truth and the Life " and he said : " I am God and if you want to get to Heaven, you must believe in Me". And that's not outrageous and Our Lord prove it wasn't outrageous by dying on the cross. He died a horrible death on the cross to prove his love for us human beings. He loved us even unto death and if we want to go to His Heaven then, we need to believe him and do what he says which is to believe, to be baptized and to be a member of His Church. And he got a right to say that because he's God." (Bishop Williamson, Window On The World part 1, starts at 10:31)

     
    "the way to be happy for Eternity is to die in the arms of the Catholic Religion, in the arms of the Catholic Church." (Bishop Williamson, Window On The World part 1, starts at 9:50)

     
    "if Eternity in Heaven is salvation, then you have to go through Our Lord Jesus Christ who was the one and the only incarnate God, the one only time God took human nature, become human being in order to die on the cross and open Heaven for souls (Bishop Williamson, Window On The World part 1, starts at 9:51)

     


    Bishop Williamson : Russia need to be converted




    "But if the Consecration [of Russia] is done, then the situation changes. And it's very possible, that's the moment when the Russians become Catholic, without becoming Latin, they will become Catholic without becoming Latin. The Latin form of Catholicism is not the only form of Catholicism. But the Russian Orthodox will be purged from whatever is schismatic and heretic in it and then it may well be, will lead, Russia will lead a religious revival in [...] the humiliated and chastised West." (Bishop Richard Williamson - Remembrance Sunday mass, starts at 27:46)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9FbVQTNuYo

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #535 PUTIN SPEAKS Oct. 18 A.D. 2017
    « Reply #48 on: October 21, 2017, 02:48:30 PM »
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  • "... The Eastern Church..."

    ...

    :-X
    If only Holy Russia became Catholic once more,
    it would then be the Eastern Church ...


    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #535 PUTIN SPEAKS Oct. 18 A.D. 2017
    « Reply #49 on: October 21, 2017, 04:53:21 PM »
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  • I am surprised to say the least at your mind reading ability GJC, especially if you are an educated Catholic.  Unlike you, I dare not make any claim to KNOW what the state of Vladimir Putin's soul is in, nor any other person's soul on this Earth is in other than my very own.

    I'd be interested to know if you can state on this forum any SSPX priest or SSPX bishop or any resistance priest or bishop who would openly declare to the whole world like yourself that Vladimir Putin's soul is presently in the state of mortal sin.  The Church informs us that we are not even supposed to go around stating someone, other than perhaps Judas and, of course, the fallen angels, are in hell.  (The children of Fatima, for example, saw many souls falling into hell, but even if they identified any of them which I doubt they did, they certainly would not be free to pass that information on to us.)

    As far as I can ascertain Putin received a valid baptism, one recognized for its validity by the Roman Catholic Church.  As I think we all know, sanctifying grace is gained by baptism and only lost by mortal sin.

    There are 3 things, of course, which are necessary to make a sin mortal.  First, the matter must be grave, something very important.  (Being a schismatic fills the bill!)  Second, the individual must be mindful of the serious wrong.  That is to say, he must have full knowledge and reflection or attention, and know that what he does is seriously wrongThird, the individual must fully consent to it.  As one can readily see, two of the necessary elements for a sin to be mortal have to do with a person's state of mind.  I would submit that there is absolutely no way short of some divine revelation given directly to us from God or via another with God's permission that we can KNOW that Vladimir Putin's soul is in the state of mortal sin.  For goodness sake, even angels can't read a person's mind unless God were to allow them to!  (Has God allowed you to read Mr. Putin's mind, to scan as it were his interior forum?)  And if you do not know the interior state of Mr. Putin's mind then you are not in any position to declare/judge him to be in the state of mortal sin.

    Matthew 7: 1-3  "Judge not, that you may not be judged,   For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again.   And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye?"  We are simply not free to pass judgment on another person's interior forum, his subjective state of mind and thus we are not free to simply go around declaring whether someone is in the state of mortal sin or not.


    Offline St Ignatius

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #535 PUTIN SPEAKS Oct. 18 A.D. 2017
    « Reply #50 on: October 21, 2017, 04:58:11 PM »
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  • It is clear that by the expression "Holy Russia", the 4 bishops wanted to say to the Blessed Virgin Mary : "Please, bring this country (Russia), by its natural inclination to religion, into the Catholic Church." A little bit like Pius XII said when he consecrated the world to the Virgin Mary : "Mother of God, please bring back Russians, who have a special devotion to You, into the Catholic Church."


    The term "holy" doesn't express holiness in a Catholic sense (in that situation), it expresses a natural disposition of Russian people to religion. If you read the text of the Consecration, the meaning is really clear : "If only Holy Russia became Catholic once more, the Eastern Church might resurrect the Western Church, presently devastated by materialism and atheism." (Bishop Williamson, Fatima Consecration II).

    In other words, we could say : "If Russia used its natural inclination to religion to defend and follow the Catholic Church, the Eastern Church might resurrect the Western Church, presently devastated by materialism and atheism."

    If Bishop Williamson believed that Russia is "holy" in the Catholic sense (he certainly doesn't), he would not pray so much for the conversion of Russia. If a country is "holy" in the Catholic sense, it doesn't need to convert. It's common sense! Therefore, it would be illogical to say that in this case, Bishop Williamson used the term 'holy' in a Catholic sense.

     
    Also, Bishop Williamson doesn't believe a false religion can be a source of holiness. He made a conference in France, just a few days ago and he firmly condemned the errors of the Second Vatican in "Lumen Gentium".

     
    Here are some of the statements of the good Bishop who express clearly his positions on the errors of the Second Vatican Council and the necessity of the conversion of Russia :

     
    Bishop Williamson : the necessity of following the one true Church

     
    "Our Divin Lord said : " I am the Way, the Truth and the Life " and he said : " I am God and if you want to get to Heaven, you must believe in Me". And that's not outrageous and Our Lord prove it wasn't outrageous by dying on the cross. He died a horrible death on the cross to prove his love for us human beings. He loved us even unto death and if we want to go to His Heaven then, we need to believe him and do what he says which is to believe, to be baptized and to be a member of His Church. And he got a right to say that because he's God." (Bishop Williamson, Window On The World part 1, starts at 10:31)

     
    "the way to be happy for Eternity is to die in the arms of the Catholic Religion, in the arms of the Catholic Church." (Bishop Williamson, Window On The World part 1, starts at 9:50)

     
    "if Eternity in Heaven is salvation, then you have to go through Our Lord Jesus Christ who was the one and the only incarnate God, the one only time God took human nature, become human being in order to die on the cross and open Heaven for souls (Bishop Williamson, Window On The World part 1, starts at 9:51)

     


    Bishop Williamson : Russia need to be converted




    "But if the Consecration [of Russia] is done, then the situation changes. And it's very possible, that's the moment when the Russians become Catholic, without becoming Latin, they will become Catholic without becoming Latin. The Latin form of Catholicism is not the only form of Catholicism. But the Russian Orthodox will be purged from whatever is schismatic and heretic in it and then it may well be, will lead, Russia will lead a religious revival in [...] the humiliated and chastised West." (Bishop Richard Williamson - Remembrance Sunday mass, starts at 27:46)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9FbVQTNuYo
    Thank you John XYZ, you have resonated my thoughts almost "to a T..." I wish I had a better ability to articulate my thoughts concisely.
     
     I believe most members here are not going to whole heartily agree with your assessment, but as for me, I agree completely with you...

    Online Last Tradhican

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #535 PUTIN SPEAKS Oct. 18 A.D. 2017
    « Reply #51 on: October 21, 2017, 09:32:57 PM »
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  • The Church informs us that we are not even supposed to go around stating someone, other than perhaps Judas and, of course, the fallen angels, are in hell.

    As far as I can ascertain Putin received a valid baptism, one recognized for its validity by the Roman Catholic Church.  As I think we all know, sanctifying grace is gained by baptism and only lost by mortal sin.
    re:  The Church informs us that we are not even supposed to go around stating someone, other than perhaps Judas and, of course, the fallen angels, are in hell.

    That keeps being repeated by people in the Novus Ordo, but there is no such teaching. Everyone who dies outside of the Church is in hell.


    The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Pope St. Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:



    “It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.




    Moreover, Putin is no different than all baptized heretics, he is a heretic and outside of the Church where there is no sanctifying grace. Putin is no different than Billy Graham or any other "conservative Christian, ALL on the road to hell.

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #535 PUTIN SPEAKS Oct. 18 A.D. 2017
    « Reply #52 on: October 21, 2017, 09:41:24 PM »
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  • re:  The Church informs us that we are not even supposed to go around stating someone, other than perhaps Judas and, of course, the fallen angels, are in hell.

    That keeps being repeated by people in the Novus Ordo, but there is no such teaching. Everyone who dies outside of the Church is in hell.


    The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Pope St. Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:



    “It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.




    Moreover, Putin is no different than all baptized heretics, he is a heretic and outside of the Church where there is no sanctifying grace. Putin is no different than Billy Graham or any other "conservative Christian, ALL on the road to hell.

    "Lord, have mercy".


    Online GJC

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #535 PUTIN SPEAKS Oct. 18 A.D. 2017
    « Reply #53 on: October 27, 2017, 11:19:38 AM »
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  • I am surprised to say the least at your mind reading ability GJC, especially if you are an educated Catholic.  Unlike you, I dare not make any claim to KNOW what the state of Vladimir Putin's soul is in, nor any other person's soul on this Earth is in other than my very own.

    I'd be interested to know if you can state on this forum any SSPX priest or SSPX bishop or any resistance priest or bishop who would openly declare to the whole world like yourself that Vladimir Putin's soul is presently in the state of mortal sin.  The Church informs us that we are not even supposed to go around stating someone, other than perhaps Judas and, of course, the fallen angels, are in hell.  (The children of Fatima, for example, saw many souls falling into hell, but even if they identified any of them which I doubt they did, they certainly would not be free to pass that information on to us.)

    As far as I can ascertain Putin received a valid baptism, one recognized for its validity by the Roman Catholic Church.  As I think we all know, sanctifying grace is gained by baptism and only lost by mortal sin.

    There are 3 things, of course, which are necessary to make a sin mortal.  First, the matter must be grave, something very important.  (Being a schismatic fills the bill!)  Second, the individual must be mindful of the serious wrong.  That is to say, he must have full knowledge and reflection or attention, and know that what he does is seriously wrong.  Third, the individual must fully consent to it.  As one can readily see, two of the necessary elements for a sin to be mortal have to do with a person's state of mind.  I would submit that there is absolutely no way short of some divine revelation given directly to us from God or via another with God's permission that we can KNOW that Vladimir Putin's soul is in the state of mortal sin.  For goodness sake, even angels can't read a person's mind unless God were to allow them to!  (Has God allowed you to read Mr. Putin's mind, to scan as it were his interior forum?)  And if you do not know the interior state of Mr. Putin's mind then you are not in any position to declare/judge him to be in the state of mortal sin.

    Matthew 7: 1-3  "Judge not, that you may not be judged,   For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again.   And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye?"  We are simply not free to pass judgment on another person's interior forum, his subjective state of mind and thus we are not free to simply go around declaring whether someone is in the state of mortal sin or not.
    I guess I shouldn't be surprised by your response...

    For that, I give you the Novus Ordo "layman" of the month award




    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #535 PUTIN SPEAKS Oct. 18 A.D. 2017
    « Reply #54 on: October 27, 2017, 12:52:32 PM »
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  • klas:
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    I am surprised to say the least at your mind reading ability GJC, especially if you are an educated Catholic.  Unlike you, I dare not make any claim to KNOW what the state of Vladimir Putin's soul is in, nor any other person's soul on this Earth is in other than my very own.

    I'd be interested to know if you can state on this forum any SSPX priest or SSPX bishop or any resistance priest or bishop who would openly declare to the whole world like yourself that Vladimir Putin's soul is presently in the state of mortal sin.
    Klas, I would have commented earlier on your excellent post, but, I figured, most forum members probably realized how right you were, would allow your argument to stand on its own merits, and offer no further challenges.   Not so glc.
    Alas, glc, as massive as his intellect may be, crumbled in the face of your reasoned and balanced remarks.  Unable to help himself, I guess, he shot back with a weak, not so clever rejoinder, giving you the NO layman of the month award.  Wow!  Dear me!
    If significant numbers of trads can do no better than this, (and I hope it is not the case), then we are in deeper trouble than I originally thought.  In this period of "diabolical disorientation," we all have a right to be confused and unclear about a lot of things.  But I'm not so sure that we have a similar right to be bigoted and stupid.

    Online GJC

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #535 PUTIN SPEAKS Oct. 18 A.D. 2017
    « Reply #55 on: October 27, 2017, 01:45:56 PM »
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  • klas:Klas, I would have commented earlier on your excellent post, but, I figured, most forum members probably realized how right you were, would allow your argument to stand on its own merits, and offer no further challenges.   Not so glc.
    Alas, glc, as massive as his intellect may be, crumbled in the face of your reasoned and balanced remarks.  Unable to help himself, I guess, he shot back with a weak, not so clever rejoinder, giving you the NO layman of the month award.  Wow!  Dear me!
    If significant numbers of trads can do no better than this, (and I hope it is not the case), then we are in deeper trouble than I originally thought.  In this period of "diabolical disorientation," we all have a right to be confused and unclear about a lot of things.  But I'm not so sure that we have a similar right to be bigoted and stupid.
    All Klas is defining is his acceptance/ advancement of the "anonymous  christian" false doctrine of the modernists/ Novus Ordo

    You do the same by defending him.





    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS #535 PUTIN SPEAKS Oct. 18 A.D. 2017
    « Reply #56 on: October 30, 2017, 07:09:18 PM »
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  • klas:Klas, I would have commented earlier on your excellent post, but, I figured, most forum members probably realized how right you were, would allow your argument to stand on its own merits, and offer no further challenges.   Not so glc.
    Alas, glc, as massive as his intellect may be, crumbled in the face of your reasoned and balanced remarks.  Unable to help himself, I guess, he shot back with a weak, not so clever rejoinder, giving you the NO layman of the month award.  Wow!  Dear me!
    If significant numbers of trads can do no better than this, (and I hope it is not the case), then we are in deeper trouble than I originally thought.  In this period of "diabolical disorientation," we all have a right to be confused and unclear about a lot of things.  But I'm not so sure that we have a similar right to be bigoted and stupid.
    Thanks for the kind words Holly!

     

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