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Author Topic: Eleison Comments 450 - Bishops Valid? II  (Read 2738 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Eleison Comments 450 - Bishops Valid? II
« on: February 27, 2016, 12:09:40 PM »
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  • Bishops Valid? – II

    The Newchurch is ambiguous, through and through,
    But innocent souls within it still we view.

    A recent study by a competent Society of St Pius X theologian concerning the validity of the Newrite of Consecration of Newbishops introduced in 1969, provides remarkable confirmation of the second point of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ’s three-point plan to destroy the Catholic Church, which the dying Cardinal Liénart (1884–1973) allegedly revealed on his death-bed. The Cardinal was a leading neo-modernist at Vatican II, and surely a Freemason himself. Before quoting from the summary of the Cardinal’s testimony which appeared in these “Comments” (#121 of October 31, 2009), let us remind readers that the validity of a Catholic sacrament requires, besides a valid Minister, a valid Form and Matter (words and actions at the heart of the ceremony) and the sacramental Intention to do what the Church does. All other words to be spoken at the ceremony constitute the Rite, surounding and framing the Form. Now from EC 121:—

    According to the Cardinal, Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ’s first objective at the Council was to break the Mass by so altering the Catholic Rite as to undermine in the long run the celebrant’s Catholic Intention: “to do what the Church does.” Gradually the Newrite was to induce priests and laity alike to take the Mass rather for a “memorial” or “sacred meal” than for a propitiatory sacrifice. Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ’s second objective was to break the Apostolic Succession by a Newrite of Consecration that would eventually undermine the bishops’ power of Orders, both by a Newform not automatically invalidating but ambiguous enough to sow doubt, and above all by a Newrite which as a whole would eventually dissolve the consecrating bishop’s sacramental Intention. This would have the advantage of breaking the Apostolic Succession so gently that nobody would even notice ( . . . )

    Do not today’s Newrites of Mass and Episcopal Consecration correspond ex actly to the Masonic plan as unveiled by the Cardinal? Ever since these Newrites were introduced in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s, many serious Catholics have refused to believe that they could be used validly. Alas, they are not automatically invalid. How much simpler it would be, if they were. They are worse. Their sacramental Newform is Catholic enough to persuade many a celebrant that they can be validly used, but the Newrite and Newform are designed as a whole to be so ambiguous and so suggestive of a non-Catholic interpretation as to invalidate the sacrament over time by corrupting the catholic Intention of any celebrant who is either too “obedient,” or is not watching and praying enough. Newrites thus valid enough to get themselves accepted by nearly all Catholics in the short term, but ambiguous enough to invalidate the sacraments in the long term, constitute a trap satanically subtle.


    There is no room left in this week’s “Comments” to do justice to the recent article of Fr Alvaro Calderón, but let us present its grand lines (whose justification will have to wait for another issue of these “Comments”): the Newrite of episcopal Consecration is an entirely new Rite. As such, is it valid? It is certainly illegitimate, because no Pope has the right to make such a break with Catholic Tradition. On the other hand in the context of the Newrite and its institution, the Newmatter, Newform and Newintention are very probably valid, because they signify what needs to be signified and most of their elements come from Rites accepted by the Church. But the validity is not certain because the break with Tradition is not legitimate, and because the Newrite is only similar to Rites approved by the Church, and all the changes go in a modernist direction. Therefore the absolute need for certain validity in sacramental Rites applies: until the restored Magisterium of the Church pronounces that the Newrite of Consecration is valid, then to be safe, Newbishops should be reconsecrated conditionally, and Newpriests ordained only by Newbishops should be re-ordained conditionally.

    Neo-modernism is “uniquely slippery.” It was designed to be so.

    Kyrie eleison.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline drew

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    Eleison Comments 450 - Bishops Valid? II
    « Reply #1 on: February 27, 2016, 01:26:16 PM »
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  • This post of Bishop Williamson's makes a very important point.  Catholics are dogmatically bound to the “received and approved rites customarily used in the solemn administration of the sacraments” (Trent).  It is in the use of these rites whereby the minister demonstrates his intention of “doing what the Church does” irrespective of his personal virtue.  This is the reason faithful Catholics do not have to ask a priest what his “intention” was after offering the traditional Roman rite of Mass to know that it was valid.  This cannot be said about Novus Ordo sacramental rites.

    Drew


    Offline Gerard from FE

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    Eleison Comments 450 - Bishops Valid? II
    « Reply #2 on: February 27, 2016, 11:41:47 PM »
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  • I would think that a distinction needs to be made about the right of a Pope to break with Tradition or introduce new rites.  

    In the case of St. Gelasius, he broke with Tradition by forcing the faithful to take Holy Communion under both species of bread and wine in order to flush out heretics that denied the wine was the body of Christ and wine was intrinsically evil.  

    In that case the Pope had the legal right and the moral right and obligation to break with Tradition.  This is because he was doing it for the good of souls.  

    Paul VI had the legal right as Pope to introduce new rites. His stated intention was to make the Latin rites closer to the Eastern rites in order to foster unity within the Church.  This of course is hard to believe with the establishment of the Novus Ordo which while borrowing a few things from the East, bears far less resemblance to the Eastern Liturgies than the TLM does.  

    But considering the growing problem of modernism and the laxity and unrest that was growing in the faithful, I think it can be argued that Paul VI didn't have the moral right to introduce new forms/rites.  So, it's legitimate to resist these innovations.  

    Offline Matthew

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    Eleison Comments 450 - Bishops Valid? II
    « Reply #3 on: February 28, 2016, 01:45:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: Gerard from FE

    Paul VI had the legal right as Pope to introduce new rites. His stated intention was to make the Latin rites closer to the Eastern rites in order to foster unity within the Church.  


    That's a laugh!

    Didn't six *protestants* help craft the Novus Ordo Missae? Why didn't they involve Eastern Rite Catholics instead, if this was the aim?

    Indeed, the final result brought the Catholic Church VERY CLOSE to the protestants in their liturgy...

    Quote


    http://archives.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q5_novus_ordo_missae.htm

    5. WHO made up the Novus Ordo Missae?

    It is the invention of a liturgical commission, the Consilium, whose guiding light was Fr. Annibale Bugnini (made an archbishop in 1972 for his services), and which also included six Protestant experts. Fr. Bugnini (principal author of Vatican II’s Sacrosanctum Concilium) had his own ideas on popular involvement in the liturgy (La Riforma Liturgia, A. Bugnini, Centro Liturgico Vincenziano, 1983), while the Protestant advisors had their own heretical ideas on the essence of the Mass.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Eleison Comments 450 - Bishops Valid? II
    « Reply #4 on: February 28, 2016, 01:48:55 AM »
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  • April 10, 1970: Paul VI thanks the 6 Protestant ministers who assisted with creation of New Mass.

    (Call me simple-minded, but if I wanted to attend a service crafted by protestants I'd go to a protestant church! It's not like they're hard to find...)
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    Offline Guardian Angel

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    Eleison Comments 450 - Bishops Valid? II
    « Reply #5 on: February 28, 2016, 06:37:23 AM »
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  • Quote from: Gerard from FE
    I would think that a distinction needs to be made about the right of a Pope to break with Tradition or introduce new rites.  

    In the case of St. Gelasius, he broke with Tradition by forcing the faithful to take Holy Communion under both species of bread and wine in order to flush out heretics that denied the wine was the body of Christ and wine was intrinsically evil.  

    In that case the Pope had the legal right and the moral right and obligation to break with Tradition.  This is because he was doing it for the good of souls.  

    Paul VI had the legal right as Pope to introduce new rites. His stated intention was to make the Latin rites closer to the Eastern rites in order to foster unity within the Church.  This of course is hard to believe with the establishment of the Novus Ordo which while borrowing a few things from the East, bears far less resemblance to the Eastern Liturgies than the TLM does.  

    But considering the growing problem of modernism and the laxity and unrest that was growing in the faithful, I think it can be argued that Paul VI didn't have the moral right to introduce new forms/rites.  So, it's legitimate to resist these innovations.  

    How could a pope have a legal right, but not a moral one?

    Offline Gerard from FE

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    Eleison Comments 450 - Bishops Valid? II
    « Reply #6 on: February 28, 2016, 09:03:43 AM »
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  • Quote from: Guardian Angel


    How could a pope have a legal right, but not a moral one?


    Because the authority given by God can be abused.

    The Scribes and Pharisees still sat on the chair of Moses even though they were nasty characters.  





    Offline Gerard from FE

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    Eleison Comments 450 - Bishops Valid? II
    « Reply #7 on: February 28, 2016, 09:10:38 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: Gerard from FE

    Paul VI had the legal right as Pope to introduce new rites. His stated intention was to make the Latin rites closer to the Eastern rites in order to foster unity within the Church.  


    That's a laugh!

    Didn't six *protestants* help craft the Novus Ordo Missae? Why didn't they involve Eastern Rite Catholics instead, if this was the aim?

    Indeed, the final result brought the Catholic Church VERY CLOSE to the protestants in their liturgy…


    Two different things: 1) the introductions of new rites for the sacraments, confession, confirmation, holy order, extreme unction etc.  much of what was changed was altered to conform to the Eastern rites.  

    2) The Novus Ordo goes against that stated intention by making a play to appeal to Protestants.  

    That conflict between 1) and 2) indicates the inconstancy and the bi-polar behavior that was one of the major problems with Paul VI.  

    Paul VI wrote one of the greatest defenses of Communion on the tongue and in the same docuмent gave permission for Communion in the hand on an experimental basis, which became the abuse we see today.  




    Offline Wessex

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    Eleison Comments 450 - Bishops Valid? II
    « Reply #8 on: February 28, 2016, 03:19:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: Gerard from FE
    Quote from: Guardian Angel


    How could a pope have a legal right, but not a moral one?


    Because the authority given by God can be abused.

    The Scribes and Pharisees still sat on the chair of Moses even though they were nasty characters.  







    And yet there are sanctions against those that disobey/question the law, abused or not. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    Offline Guardian Angel

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    Eleison Comments 450 - Bishops Valid? II
    « Reply #9 on: February 28, 2016, 05:30:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: Gerard from FE
    Quote from: Guardian Angel


    How could a pope have a legal right, but not a moral one?


    Because the authority given by God can be abused.

    The Scribes and Pharisees still sat on the chair of Moses even though they were nasty characters.  





    If the authority given by God can be abused, then when it is abused the legal right does not exist, especially when it comes to matters regarding God's Church.

    Offline Gerard from FE

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    Eleison Comments 450 - Bishops Valid? II
    « Reply #10 on: February 29, 2016, 01:02:29 AM »
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  • Quote from: Guardian Angel
    Quote from: Gerard from FE
    Quote from: Guardian Angel


    How could a pope have a legal right, but not a moral one?


    Because the authority given by God can be abused.

    The Scribes and Pharisees still sat on the chair of Moses even though they were nasty characters.  



    If the authority given by God can be abused, then when it is abused the legal right does not exist, especially when it comes to matters regarding God's Church.


    That's a convoluted way of trying to say the authority given by God cannot be abused.  

    But that's not what Christ said about the Scribes and Pharisees, they had all of he legal authority and Christ never denied them that authority, though he had the power to.  He instead condemned them on moral grounds.  Pontius Pilate had legal authority over Jesus, but Jesus reminded him of his moral failing and the failing of those that delivered him to Pilate.  

    A Pope doesn't lose his right to govern the Church because he's abusive.  He loses the moral right to be obeyed if the abuse is bad enough and consequently loses his effectiveness as a leader.  



    Offline Guardian Angel

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    Eleison Comments 450 - Bishops Valid? II
    « Reply #11 on: February 29, 2016, 06:42:46 AM »
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  • Quote from: Gerard from FE
    Quote from: Guardian Angel
    Quote from: Gerard from FE
    Quote from: Guardian Angel


    How could a pope have a legal right, but not a moral one?


    Because the authority given by God can be abused.

    The Scribes and Pharisees still sat on the chair of Moses even though they were nasty characters.  



    If the authority given by God can be abused, then when it is abused the legal right does not exist, especially when it comes to matters regarding God's Church.


    That's a convoluted way of trying to say the authority given by God cannot be abused.  

    But that's not what Christ said about the Scribes and Pharisees, they had all of he legal authority and Christ never denied them that authority, though he had the power to.  He instead condemned them on moral grounds.  Pontius Pilate had legal authority over Jesus, but Jesus reminded him of his moral failing and the failing of those that delivered him to Pilate.  

    A Pope doesn't lose his right to govern the Church because he's abusive.  He loses the moral right to be obeyed if the abuse is bad enough and consequently loses his effectiveness as a leader.  


    I am not saying or implying that a particular instance of abuse of authority in the papal office results in the loss of all the authority of that office.  I am saying that if you state that a particular act is morally not legitimate, then that act cannot be legally legitimate either because the moral law takes precedence over human law.

    Offline Gerard from FE

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    Eleison Comments 450 - Bishops Valid? II
    « Reply #12 on: February 29, 2016, 11:50:39 AM »
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  • Quote from: Guardian Angel
    Quote from: Gerard from FE
    Quote from: Guardian Angel
    Quote from: Gerard from FE
    Quote from: Guardian Angel


    How could a pope have a legal right, but not a moral one?


    Because the authority given by God can be abused.

    The Scribes and Pharisees still sat on the chair of Moses even though they were nasty characters.  



    If the authority given by God can be abused, then when it is abused the legal right does not exist, especially when it comes to matters regarding God's Church.


    That's a convoluted way of trying to say the authority given by God cannot be abused.  

    But that's not what Christ said about the Scribes and Pharisees, they had all of he legal authority and Christ never denied them that authority, though he had the power to.  He instead condemned them on moral grounds.  Pontius Pilate had legal authority over Jesus, but Jesus reminded him of his moral failing and the failing of those that delivered him to Pilate.  

    A Pope doesn't lose his right to govern the Church because he's abusive.  He loses the moral right to be obeyed if the abuse is bad enough and consequently loses his effectiveness as a leader.  


    I am not saying or implying that a particular instance of abuse of authority in the papal office results in the loss of all the authority of that office.  I am saying that if you state that a particular act is morally not legitimate, then that act cannot be legally legitimate either because the moral law takes precedence over human law.


    Legality involves procedure. ie. legislation.  A Pope can give a command to "stand down" on an action.  It's a legal command.  But a command can be legal and still be resisted.   A Pope has supreme authority, there is no legal overriding of his decrees.  But an illegal act may not be sinful and a legal act may be sinful.  



    Online Pax Vobis

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    Eleison Comments 450 - Bishops Valid? II
    « Reply #13 on: February 29, 2016, 12:06:16 PM »
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  • I agree, Guardian Angel,
    The Pope may have authority as pope, but it doesn't mean that he has authority for any/all acts.  Just because he's the legal pope, doesn't mean whatever he does is legal.  If an act is immoral, it's also illegal, by definition.

    If people PERCEIVE something to be legal (i.e. novus ordo) it doesn't make it legal, even if every vatican official says it is.  The law is the law and it all started with Christ, and cannot be changed, except for minor details.

    Finally, a pope can abuse his authority but he sins in doing so.  It would also be illegal, which is why we can't follow his order.  

    Gerard,
    Quote
    But an illegal act may not be sinful and a legal act may be sinful.

    Please provide examples.  

    Offline Gerard from FE

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    Eleison Comments 450 - Bishops Valid? II
    « Reply #14 on: March 01, 2016, 12:21:27 AM »
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  • Quote from: Pax Vobis

    Gerard,
    Quote
    But an illegal act may not be sinful and a legal act may be sinful.

    Please provide examples.  


    The law in the Latin Church states that a bishop may not consecrate another bishop without the permission of the Pope.  It was illegal for Archbishop Marcel LeFebvre to consecrate bishops, but due to the circuмstances in the Church, his act was moral.  

    A bishop has the legal authority to reassign priests in his diocese. He may assign a priest who is orthodox away from a liberal parish because the people complain about his orthodoxy and the bishop does not want the collection plate to be reduced.  The bishop's exercise of his power is completely legal.  His motivations for taking those actions are immoral.  

    King David had the legal authority to send Uria to the front lines of battle.  The fact that he did it because he wanted him to die was sinful.