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Author Topic: Eleison Comments 275 - by Bishop Williamson  (Read 22891 times)

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Offline curioustrad

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Eleison Comments 275 - by Bishop Williamson
« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2012, 11:20:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat


    Q:  How can H.E. tell when his EC's satire has been a success?

    A:  When H.E. goes to CI and sees the discussion going like this -- It's satire.
            No, it's not satire.
            No, no, it's satire.
            No, no, it's not satire.
            Yes, it is, see here?
            No, it's not: see there?  
            ETC.



     


    I would think that at a point like this Bishop Williamson would say in a mock American accent: "You got it !"

    Please pray for my soul.
    +
    RIP

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Eleison Comments 275 - by Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #46 on: October 23, 2012, 12:06:08 AM »
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  • Quote from: MauricePinay
    "Neil Obstat," the misunderstanding is on your part. I'm referencing not only this most recent endorsement of "The Poem" from Bp. Williamson but all of the countless endorsements of this Midrash that he's made throughout his entire ministry, most of which go much farther than this most recent Eleison Comments.

    Bp. Williamson has gone so far as to say that he stakes his theological reputation on "The Poem of the Man God" being entirely free of error. He has said explicitly in another Eleison Comments (CCI May 21, 2001, "Two Repentances") that he believes "The Poem" is from God.


    Thank you for your reply.  Your measured reaction is to your credit, and I hope
    you can forgive me for my invective.  For the record, could you post the text of
    this stake where he put 'his theological reputation' on the line?  I've never seen
    that.  

    My point was, in the end, that our principle criticism of Vatican II has long been
    its ambiguity, and that this EC is an example of just such a thing, where one
    reader sees one meaning, and another reader reasonably can see quite the
    opposite meaning.  The Church does not write that way, in saner times and
    under virtuous leadership.  Oh, I have to be careful now saying "virtuous,"
    because that's one of the words the Modernists have managed to embezzle
    for their own use.  


    Quote from: And then Nadir
    This is a strange thing: (apart from the alleged literary qualities mentioned on this post)
    that the Archbishop did not approve of it,
    that it contains countless doctrinal errors
    which any of the faithful parents are supposed to censor out, without theological qualifications;
    the romanticizing and sentimentalizing of the Gospel events (filling in the gaps in God's word!):

     - in spite of the all these bad or impossible things, Bishop Williamson still says

    Quote from: H.E.
    I can imagine almost no end to how much they could learn about Our Lord and Our Lady.


    Think of the "Time Bombs of Vatican II."  What things seem to mean at first
    glance can later be taught to mean quite the opposite, when the language of the
    thing is vague.  

    In spite of all these bad or impossible things, Bishop Williamson still says that
    he can imagine almost no end (in which direction, good or bad?) to how much
    they could learn about Our Lord and Our Lady (if learning good things, fine, but
    if learning BAD things, NOT fine).

    The words, "how much they could learn about Our Lord and Our Lady" mentions
    absolutely no moral gauge of the quality of the learning, only the quantity of same.  

    Example:
    A young man believes he has a vocation, so he sets off for the seminary, and his
    father says, "I can imagine almost no end to how much he might learn
    there about Christian morality."
    But the seminary is a Novus Ordo seminary,
    where most of the seminarians are either ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ or those that are not
    'habitually exhibit no discrimination against them.'  Was his father wrong?  Is the
    youth going to learn a lot about Christian morality while rubbing elbows with fαɢs?  
    Or, perhaps he's going to learn a lot more about the effects of the absence of
    Christian morality, which is really something about morality as well, is it not?  But
    if the father had said, "...learn there about good Christian morality," he would
    be taking a more solid stand, just by the addition of one word.  


    Oh, and
    Quote from: Nadir
    in spite of the all these bad or impossible things, Bishop Williamson still says
    Quote:
    I can imagine almost no end to how much they could learn about Our Lord and Our Lady.


    What should children learn about Our Lord and Our Lady that can't be found in the Holy Bible and other reputable souces, such as the saints and Church approved visionaries?

    That H.E. should write such a EC makes one wonder if his drinks have been laced. I cannot judge his intent, but there is definitely something amiss here.



    What SHOULD the children learn?  They "should" learn the truth, but read the
    Poem of the Man God to them and they'll learn something else.  

    Stick with the Bible, and stick with holy saints' writings, NOT Valtorta!  

    And if you can't decipher satire, don't take the advice of +Williamson!
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Eleison Comments 275 - by Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #47 on: October 23, 2012, 12:26:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: curioustrad
    Quote from: Neil Obstat


    Q:  How can H.E. tell when his EC's satire has been a success?

    A:  When H.E. goes to CI and sees the discussion going like this --

            It's satire.
            No, it's not satire.

            No, no, it's satire.
            No, no, it's not satire.

            Yes, it is, see here?
            No, it's not: see there?  

            ETC.



     


    I would think that at a point like this Bishop Williamson would say in a mock American accent: "You got it !"



    Well I must admit, I'm not his biggest fan, but it would be a great honor to have
    him bestow his best mockery of an American accent on me.  I might be able to
    guess which region of the States most influenced him!  HAHAHAHA

    I know a Filipino woman who speaks English with an Irish accent.  She was
    raised by Irish nuns.  She has black hair, dark eyes and generally Polynesian
    appearance from head to toe.  It's a trip to close your eyes and hear her talk,
    then open them and see who's talking.  Surreal!

    But H.E. ought to be very careful about demonstrating impersonations of Americans,
    for look what happened to Steve Bridges at the peak of his career!
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    Offline subpallaeMariae

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    Eleison Comments 275 - by Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #48 on: October 23, 2012, 02:02:55 AM »
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  • Quote from: magdalena

    MP-

       I think +Williamson knows exactly what he's doing.  He could have chosen any number of books, but he chose that one.  You're not giving him the credit he's due.  The real question is:  Why?  And, BTW, I like +Williamson, so this isn't a criticism, just an observation.  

     :idea:  


    I know +W has praised this book in the past (and it has been a scandal to many and a tool of his enemies) but it is really bad timing to do so now, when we were all awaiting a good word! Could EC be in the hands of others, already and now being used to distance the flock- from the shepherd? I cannot think of any other explanation!

    Offline curioustrad

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    Eleison Comments 275 - by Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #49 on: October 23, 2012, 10:04:46 AM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat


    And if you can't decipher satire, don't take the advice of +Williamson!


    Not just satire but hyperbole as well: "I can imagine no end of things they would learn..." etc.)
    Please pray for my soul.
    +
    RIP


    Offline guitarplucker

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    Eleison Comments 275 - by Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #50 on: October 23, 2012, 11:20:50 AM »
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  • I was reading a thread about this on Fisheaters (http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3454387.10.html) and came across these quotes about the Poem:

    His Holiness Pope Pius XlI, February 26 1948:
    "Publish this work as it is. there is no need to give an opinion about its origin, whether it be extraordinary or not. Who reads it, will understand."  

    [Someone mentioned that this quote was falsely attributed to Pius XII.]

    Archbishop Alfonso Carinci, Secretary of the Congregation of the Sacred Rites (1946):
    " There is nothing therein which is contrary to the Gospel. Rather, this work, a good complement to the Gospel, contributes towards a better understanding of its meaning."

    "Fr. Leo, a personal chaplain of Mother Theresa, also admitted to carrying the Poem of Man God with him at all times."

    Msgr. Ugo Lattanzi, dean of the Faculty of Theology of the Lateran Pontifical University, adviser to the Holy Office (1951)
    "The author could not have written such an abundant amount of material without being under the influence of a supernatural power."

    "M. Pisani published the first volumes of Valtorta’s Life of Christ, The Poem of the Man-God, without the approval of the local bishop. Zealous ecclesiastics brought this to the attention of their superiors. The Poem of the Man-God was placed on the index of forbidden books, not because of doctrinal errors, but because it was printed without the required nihil obstat and imprimatur."

    "Fr. Gabriel M. Roschini, Mariologist adviser to Pope Pius XII and the Holy Office, professor of Pontifical Faculty of Theology in Rome,  and founder of the Marianum( a prestigious journal of Marian theology)  wrote of Valtorta:

    'I must candidly admit that the Mariology found in Maria Valtorta's writings, whether published or not, has been for me a real discovery. No other Marian writing, not even the sum total of all the writings I have read and studied were able to give me as clear, as lively, as complete, as luminous, or as fascinating an image, both simple and sublime, of Mary, God's masterpiece.'"

    In providing his imperimatur in 2002, Ukrainian Catholic Bishop Danylak commented: "Is there anything against faith or morals in her writings? All her critics begrudgingly have acknowledged that there is nothing against faith and morals… there is nothing objectionable in The Poem of the Man-God and all the other writings of Valtorta."

    Novus Ordo Bishop Roman Danylak supports Medjugorje.

    What MauricePinay posted earlier is good enough reason for me to avoid it.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Eleison Comments 275 - by Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #51 on: October 23, 2012, 12:14:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: subpallaeMariae
    Quote from: magdalena

    MP-

       I think +Williamson knows exactly what he's doing.  He could have chosen any number of books, but he chose that one.  You're not giving him the credit he's due.  The real question is:  Why?  And, BTW, I like +Williamson, so this isn't a criticism, just an observation.  

     :idea:  


    I know +W has praised this book in the past (and it has been a scandal to many and a tool of his enemies) but it is really bad timing to do so now, when we were all awaiting a good word! Could EC be in the hands of others, already and now being used to distance the flock- from the shepherd?

    I cannot think of any other explanation!



    You can't think of any other explanation?
    You can't think of any other explanation?
    You can't think of any other explanation?


    Are you more dense than 'MauricePinay'??????

    ( no offense, "Maurice" )




    Are you paying attention?

    Hello?

    Is this going over your head?



    Bishop Williamson is trying, as best he can in one lousy page of text,
    to drag you, kicking and screaming, to the brink of the future,
    which will be here any minute now..... There. The future just arrived.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    But seriously........

    We are standing today on the brink of an age when all the norms of the past
    are like piles of straw, about to be BURNED.  And if you don't like to have me
    tell a joke at a time like this, just remember that St. Lawrence was being
    roasted alive on a gridiron like a side of BEEF, and he joked to his executioners:

    "Hey, DUDE! I'M DONE ON THIS SIDE! WHY DON'T YOU TURN ME OVER?

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA"

    The echo of his satire, hyperbole and derision filled the halls of the palace,
    wafted down the streets of erstwhile Pagan Rome, resounded in the head of
    everyone present, including the pagan emperor, and it forthwith
    EXTINGUISHED PAGANISM.




    Let that sink in.




    We are traditional Catholics, who face a most uncertain future, when
    we will be chastised for trying to keep the Faith of our Fathers.

    We have been spoiled by decades upon decades of having the True Mass
    and Sacraments, which are today becoming quite rare, in case you didn't notice.

    And if the Menzingen-denizens get their way, they'll become overnight
    all the more rarer -- have no doubt about that!  You'll first have a 'deal with Rome'
    then you'll have Communion in the hand, Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers,
    altar girls, Novordien sermons, Mahony Square Garden Red Turkish Marble Tables
    Altars, Reconciliation rooms with a secret entrance in the back wall, clown masses
    and Novordien Liturgy first under the guise of the 'New 1962 missal.'

    "Doubt it not!"
    (Albert Pike's Morals and Dogma - handbook for Freemasons)








    If you cannot make sense of this EC, you're going to have a really hard time
    making sense of the local police knocking on your door and telling you
    you have to leave your home now because someone heard you say
    something that offended them.
     

    Or WHATEVER.








    He's trying to shake you from your slumber.  Awaken you from complacency.
    Alert you to the imminent danger of being Catholic when
    keeping the faith is seen as a 'negative' - a 'crime' - and unforgivable.

    It requires being able to think around the ostensible message
    and see something that is not plainly visible.

    It is Scriptural.  "Beware, I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves.
    Be ye therefore wise as serpents and simple as doves" (Mt. x. 16).


    Be ye therefore simple as doves and read to your dear children every day,
    to teach them the love of reading non-electronic media: a book in hand is
    better than two ipods in the pocket! And wise as serpents: do not read to
    your children from Vatican II docuмents, DICI.com, Fr. Rostand's latest
    gibberish or worse, that of Fr. Pfluger!   :barf:  and likewise do not read
    the Poem of the Man God to your dear children
    , lest they learn 'no end' of
    heresies and Modernism, under your loving care...................

    - and furthermore-

    Don't read to them this EC cclxxv!


    (But it's fine if you teach them that 'cclxxv' is 275 in Roman Numerals)


     :dancing:





    Quote from: curioustrad
    Quote from: Neil Obstat


    And if you can't decipher satire, don't take the advice of +Williamson!


    Not just satire but hyperbole as well: "I can imagine no end of things they would learn..." etc.)


    Sorry.  Satire and hyperbole.  Right...................


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Eleison Comments 275 - by Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #52 on: October 23, 2012, 12:27:16 PM »
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  • ...........And if your child says, "But mommy, CD isn't "400" -- it's a recording!"


    ............................have you done your homework yet? ...............................




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    Offline Incredulous

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    Eleison Comments 275 - by Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #53 on: October 24, 2012, 02:25:10 AM »
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  • Quote from: MauricePinay
    Single-issue traditionalists who don't care about Augustine Bea's shepherding of the Midrash "of the Man God" past any criticism or his shepherding of Nostra Aetate through Vatican II or his shepherding of textual and historical criticism of Scripture into the Church may be interested to know of his role in shepherding the Novus Ordo Mass into Catholic parishes. Augustin Bea, along with Annibale Bugnini and others, was a member of the secretive Commission for Liturgical Reform from its very beginning in 1948. As we know, the first target of attack was the Holy Week liturgy.

    There is a clear trajectory to his treachery for anyone with eyes to see. The Judaizing "Poem of the Man God" is very much in alignment with it.




    Here's the Poem's history from the the Valtorta website (below),

    Around 1947, Father Berti , Professor of Dogmatic Sacramental Theology, was "channeled" by unnamed Vatican officials to bring the poem directly to Pope Pius XII.

    Pope Pius XII had the poem for a year and then verbally approved it be published "as is".

    Cardinal Ottaviani was the one who pursued putting it on the book ban.

    It sounds like during all the controversy multiple versions of the Poem were published.


    http://www.maria-valtorta.net/
    Introduction

     The history surrounding Maria Valtorta’s “The Poem of the Man-God” seems to be one of the more complex and elusive topics among Catholics today. This becomes immediately evident whenever a discussion broaches this topic. On the one side, there are those who claim that the book is simply a work of fiction, written by a delusional woman, and denounced by the Church (often, a common strand of arguments are repeated, i.e., the book contains various “blunders” like the use of screwdrivers, or the Blessed Mother asking to become a sinner, etc.). On the other side, there are those who claim that the book is a 5th gospel equal to Scripture, and that the Holy Office was involved in one of the greatest scandals of our time (equally as disconcerting).

        In the interest of remaining objective, the first section of this website presents, quite simply, the historical facts surrounding “The Poem”, drawn from only credible sources (content without references, or content mixed with emotion, are omitted as dubious). The author of this website hopes that, armed with the right information, readers may be equipped to bring clarity to discussions on this topic.



    A Brief History of Events
    *in-line notes in blue

    1944~47: Maria Valtorta reportedly received visions and dictations regarding the life of Jesus, which were recorded into notebooks. These eventually became known in english as “The Poem of the Man-God”. [1]

    [1] Maria Valtorta wrote over ten-thousand hand-written pages in three years, averaging about sixty-four pages per week (an additional five thousand pages were written and composed into other books and meditations until 1954, including an autobiography. All of her writings were done in obedience to her confessor's request. We note this final point because Church norms require obedience as a necessary condition for authenticity. Historically, a disobedient visionary almost guarantees falsity.).

    1946: Archbishop Alfonso Carinci, Secretary of the Congregation of the Sacred Rites, reviewed the manuscripts and stated; "There is nothing therein which is contrary to the Gospel. Rather, this work, a good complement to the Gospel, contributes towards a better understanding of its meaning"  1

    1946~47: Maria Valtorta’s spiritual director, Fr. Migliorini, began reading the manuscripts with enthusiastic devotion. Convinced of the divine origin of the writings, he desired to seek publication (despite Valtorta’s reluctance to do so), and proceeded to draft them into typescripts and distributed them in small pamphlets. [2a]Fr. Migliorini was then transferred to Rome, and was replaced by Fr. Berti as Maria Valtorta’s spiritual director. Fr. Berti [Professor of Dogmatic Sacramental Theology], who, likewise became convinced of the divine origin of the writings 2, sought publication by contacting amiable Vatican representatives.

    3 Fr. Berti was advised to submit type-written copies directly to Pope Pius XII, through a prelate of the Secretary of State. [2b] Bed ridden, Maria Valtorta reluctantly agreed to the pursuit of publication, but agreed only on the stipulation that she remain anonymous. [2c]

    [2a] It is uknown whether Fr. Migliorini sought approval from the local bishop (ordinary) prior to distributing the pamphlets. If not, then it was an imprudent oversight on his part, as open communication with one's bishop should always be the first line of action in seeking Church approval. Maria's reulctance against his wishes may give further indication of this (as well as her level of spiritual maturity).

    [2b] It is not known why the Vatican officials channeled Fr. Berti directly to the pope. Ordinarily, all apparitions must be reviewed by the local ordinary first, then if necessary, the Holy Office (today known as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith). However, the pope, having universal jurisdiction over the whole Church, was well within his authority to review the typescripts himself, if he so chooses.
     [2c] We felt it worth mentioing Valtorta's desire to remain anonymous, as the Holy See can consider this an indication of the visionary's character.

    1947~48: Pope Pius XII reviewed the writings over the course of a year (or, at least had them in his posession), 4 and in February of 1948, agreed to a special audience with Fr. Berti and two other priests. 5 According to the three eye witnesses—who gave signed testimony to the event [3]—the Holy Father gave the following verbal permission [4]; "Publish this work as is; he who reads will understand. One hears talk of so many visions and revelations. I do not say that all are true; but some of them could be true." [5] Father Berti then asked if the inscriptions: "Visions" and "Dictations" should be removed from the Poem before publishing it. The pope responded that nothing should be removed.

    [5] This statement to publish "as is" by pope Pius XII is perhaps the most compelling evidence on this matter. Some critics have attempted to discredit its authenticity, however without citing any real evidence to the contrary. Thus, we have not found any reason for rejecting the testimonies of these three priests as a mistake or a lie, especially given their distinguished repute (Prior of the Servites of Mary in Rome, Professor of Dogmatic Theology, and Prefect Apostolic in Africa). It may also be worth mentioning, in a court of law in the United States, only two eye witnesses are necessary to convict someone with the Death Penalty.

    [3] The signed testimonies of these three priests are located in Isola del Liri Italy. Further docuмentation may be obtained at The Basilica of the Annunciation in Florence Italy, where Maria Valtorta is buried.

     [4] Permission to print is known as an Imprimatur, Latin for "let it be printed". It is “a license to print or publish”.


    194?: Archbishop Montini (soon to be Pope Paul VI), reads one volume of The Poem, and orders the complete type-written work to be added to his seminary library in Milan. [7]

    [7] Although the precise year when Paul VI read the Poem is not known, this event has been corroborated by two witnesses, 6 and supported by an authorized letter from Pope Paul VI himself [see 1974].

    1949: The Holy Office, under Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani (then Pro-Prefect) summoned Fr. Berti through two commissioners, Msgr. Pepe and Fr. Berruti, who ordered that he turn over all manuscripts and typescripts of the work. [8] Msgr. Pepe, who read the judgment, added; "Here they will remain as in a tomb" (This effectively discouraged any further efforts towards publication). Fr. Berti handed over the typescripts in his posession, but kept the original manuscripts. [9]

    [8] There is reasonable evidence to suggest that the Holy Office's sudden reprimand was triggered by the Vatican officials channeling Fr. Berti directly to the pope rather than through the Holy Office (in other words, it may have been caused by external events--beyond Maria Valtorta's control--rather than the writings themselves). The strongest evidence of this fact is the explanation of the condemnation of 1959, which placed the Poem on the Index of Forbidden books [see 1959]. Surprisingly, this letter becomes its own worst critic, demonstrating its own non-conformity to the Church’s criterion for judging alleged apparitions (not even an investigation into the life visionary was conducted at the time—a necessary prerequisite for determining authenticity), 7 and does not convey a sense sober analysis, but rather, evokes the opposite impression.

    [9] Perhaps if Fr. Berti was more oebedient in this instance, he would have avoided many of the difficulties that insued from this point forward. When Venerable Mary of Agreda was commanded by a priest to burn all her writings, she did so without hesitatation, as did Saint Faustina. If Maria had been asked, it is likely she too would have readily handed over everything. But Fr. Berti evidently felt he needed to protect Maria Valtorta, and in doing so may have underestimated the value of obedience.

    1952: Rev. Bea (future Cardinal), spiritual director to Pope Pius XXII states; "I have read in typed manuscripts many of the books written by Maria Valtorta [...] As far as exegesis is concerned, I did not find any errors in the parts which I examined."  8

    1956~1959: Six years after the Holy Office's prohibition, Vatican consultant and renown Mariologist, Fr. Roschini, encourages Fr. Berti to continue seeking publication through an Italian publisher, Michele Pisani. The publisher enthusiastically took up the cause of publication, feeling confident of the Church’s benevolence [9]. The first edition of the Poem was then published, one volume each year from 1956 to 1959. 9 However this was done as an anonymous work at Valtorta's request, and without revision, theological notes, or introduction.

    [9] Pisani writes; “and we seemed to be sufficiently guaranteed by the very high judgment of the Pope and by the recorded certifications granted by indisputably competent and authoritative persons”. 10 Pisani may have been overconfident at the time, evidently unaware of the brewing tension within the Vatican due to the devastating cultural revolution that was about to take place throughout the world.

    1958~1959: Pius XII dies, who is suceeded by Pope John XXIII as pope. The new pope takes immediate actions to begin reorganization of curial offices, including the Holy Office (he would soon convene Vatican II). Cardinal Ottaviani replaces Cardinal Pizzardo as Secretary.

    1959: Spearheaded by the newly appointed Cardinal Ottaviani as Prefect, the Holy Office passes a decree placing the first edition of the Poem on the Index of Forbidden Books [10], signed by Pope John XXIII. Published in the Vatican newspaper (L'Osservatore Romano), on the same page as the decree of condemnation, was an [anonymous] letter detailing the reasons for the condemnation (January 1960). A Critical Analysis of the Decree of Condemnation of “The Poem of the Man-God” may be viewed, here.

    [10] For proper context, it may be worth mentioning that Saint Faustina’s diary was also placed on the Index at the same time as The Poem. Other persons who had previously been placed on the Index were Victor Hugo (Les Miserables, The Hunchback of Notre Dame), Alexander Dumas (Three Musketeers, Count of Monte Cristo), and Galileo for his writings on celestial bodies. Furthermore, in 1961, Padre Pio was reprimanded by the Holy Office under Cardinal Ottaviani, placing numerous restrictions on his priestly functions. We point this out, not to suggest incompetence within the Holy Office, but to provide a clearer context of the significance of this condemnation; which is sometimes permitted by Our Lord to give further proof of the holiness of the individual, or, in other cases, may suggest possible human error.).

    1960: Perplexed and devastated at the decree, Maria Valtorta’s health continued to degrade (she would be dead the following year, 1961). Nonetheless, the publisher, M. Pisani, and Fr. Berti, resolve themselves to present a second edition to the Holy Office. [11]

    [11] The Pisani publishing company writes; “we found a system for resuming the publication of the Work with such criteria as would not exclude the respect due toward the authority of the Church.”  11 Evidently, Fr. Berti and Pisani are now beginning to wise up to the proper protocals in use at the time.

    1960-1962: Fr. Berti was summoned to the Holy Office on various occasions, who was received by Vice-Commissioner of the Holy Office, Father Mark Giraudo O.P. The dialog this time was more amiable. Fr. Berti was able to convey Pope Pius XII’s permission to publish in 1948, as well as explain/clarify other concerns. Vatican representatives were sent to visit Maria Valtorta to ask her questions directly—apparently to their satisfaction. Things appeared to be finally turning in favor of Maria Valtorta, and the second edition of the Poem seemed to be received well. Various Vatican officials submitted to the Holy Office signed certifications of their support of the second edition [12]. At the close of this informal investigation, Fr. Giraudo, under the direction of Cardinal Pizzardo, seemed to give tacit permission, stating; "Continue to publish this second edition. We will see how the Work [The Poem] will be welcomed."  12

    [12] The certifications were submitted by Cardinal Augustine Bea, S.J., Msgr. Alfonsus Carinci, and Fr. Gabriele Roschini, O.S.M., which favorably impressed Cardinal Pizzardo (Secretary of the Holy Office, 1951-1959). It is also interesting to note that this sudden turn in favor of Maria Valtorta began immediately after her death.

    1963: Pope John XXIII dies, who succeeded by Pope Paul VI (who notably favored the Poem. [see 194?, 1974] The sessions of Vatican II continue until 1965.

    1964-1966: The second edition of The Poem was printed, with the permission granted by top officials of the Holy Office in 1962. [13]

    [13] This edition was significantly revised from the first, and included clarifications by Maria Valtorta, edits of poorly worded passages, and extensive theological commentary by Fr. Berti, which further clarified ambiguous passages. 13  This edition was released only in Italian.

    1966: Pope Paul VI abrogates the Index of Forbidden Books, effectively liberating the first edition of the Poem from the Holy Office’s censure.

    June, 1966: Cardinal Ottaviani authors a letter declaring that “the Index retains its moral force, inasmuch as it warns the Christian conscience to be on guard, as the natural law itself requires, against those writings which can endanger the faith or good morals” [14]14

    [14] This statement by Cardinal Ottaviani seems to have been widely circulated by critics of Valtorta, who use it to effectively reinstate the Index. A few points should be noted; 1) The proper understanding of “moral force” is defined in the very next sentence, i.e., to be “on guard”. It is no longer a blanket act of condemnation -- It cannot be, since Saint Faustina’s diary was never removed from the Index, and yet we now celebrate Divine Mercy Sunday because of it.

    2) The statement is further restricted to "those writings which can endanger the faith or good morals". Not every book on the Index fell into this category. The Poem itself was placed on the Index due to a legal principle--the lack of an Imprimatur--not because it was deemed to "endanger faith or good morals". No Bishop or Cardinal, in print, has ever found a single doctrincal error in the Poem.

    3) If "moral force" really meant what critics of the Poem interpret it as, then one would expect the Vatican to make the Index readily available to the faithful to help protect souls from harm (and also discourage seeing such plays as Les Miserable, the Hunchback of Notre Dame, etc.). However, the Vatican has all but buried the Index--releasing its archives only to historians in 1998--and does not publically list its contents. 4) It should also be recalled that the first edition of the Poem was placed on the Index, whereas the second [substantially revised] edition was granted verbal permission to publish in 1962, according to the testimony of Fr. Berti.


    1974: Pope Paul VI authorizes a letter of appreciation [15] to Fr. Gabriele Roschini, for his book; “The Virgin Mary in the Writings of Maria Valtorta” [16]. A photographic copy of the letter is posted in the inside cover of every edition. To view this letter, please click here.

    [15] This letter, penned by the Secretariat of State 15 and authorized by the pope , undoubtedly conveys a positive tone, praising the author for his "piety and his zeal, for which this publication is the obvious result". It is illogical to conclude that the pope would authorize such a letter, if he thought the writings were condemned or contained error.
     [16] This event falls naturally in line with the Holy Father’s action decades earlier of sending the complete writings to the Milan Seminary library.

    1985: A priest writes a letter to Cardinal Ratzinger, then Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, inquiring about the distribution of the writing once placed on the Index. Eight months later, Cardinal Ratzinger sends a response to Cardinal Siri, in which he diplomatically recapitulated the history of events, and concludes noting the condemnations necessity to “neutralize the damages which such a publication could bring to the more unprepared faithful”. [16] 16

    [16] There appears to be multiple English translations of this docuмent circulating on the Internet, some of which contain significant errors in key statements [ex. see; Response to Colin B. Donovan]. Upon reading an accurate translation [see Apendix I], it becomes immediately evident that Cardinal Ratzinger avoids passing judgment—either positively or negatively—by restating the history of events. Far from being a negative judgment, the Cardinal simply highlights events of history, and states that diffusion of the Poem, at the time, was "not held to be opportune". The final statement, as quoted above, restricts the range of the condemnation further, limiting it to the “more unprepared faithful” (of which one interpretation could refer to those who lack good catechesis, who would attach themselves too strongly to the Poem, effectively elevating a private revelation above public revelation). At most, this text could be interpretted as a cautionary caveat; however a negaitve judgment it is not.
                   
    1992: Multiple Bishops and Archbishops (one of whom is a Major Archbishop, Padiyara of Ernakulam, head of the Syro-Malabar rite) write letters of approval for the Malayalam translation of the Poem. Among them include; Archbishop Gregorous of Trivandrum, Bishop Benjamin of Darjeeling, Bishop D'souza of Pune, Bishop Kundukulam, Bishop Kureethara, and Bishop Soosa of Trivandrum. Bishop Soosa is later promoted to Archbishop by pope John Paul II.

    1992: A layperson inquires to bishop Boland, who writes to the Holy Office on the status of the Poem. Cardinal Ratzinger reportedly responds to the bishop, who then in turn summarizes the Cardinal's letter [17], stating that the Poem may be published on the stipulation that it is "clearly indicated from the very first page that the 'visions' and 'dictations' referred to in it are simply the literary forms used by the author to narrate in her own way the life of Jesus. They cannot be considered supernatural in origin." 17   [full text see Appendix II]
    [17] The implications of the above statement are monumental. What is veiled behind a negative sounding wording, is actually a complete reversal of the Holy Office's previous prohibition from 1959. Implicit in the above statement is full permission to freely publish, promote, and distribute the Poem, so long as it is not promoted at supernatural in origin. The is a great leap forward from 30 years prior. This means that laity and priests can in good conscience read the Poem, promote the Poem, and distribute the Poem, without the fear of being censored. No longer can critics say; "The CDF forbids you!"

    But let us also examine the part of this statement; "They cannot be considered supernatural in origin". At first glance, this English translation may seem like a definitive negative statement. But is it really? The Church has a very precise terminology for judging apparitions. According to the norms of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, alleged apparitions are classified in one of three categories;
                     1. Constat de supernaturalitate -- It is certain/confirmed of supernatural origin.
                    2. Constat de non supernaturalitate -- It is certain/confirmed of no supernatural origin.
                    3. Non-constat de supernaturalitate -- It is not (or cannot be) certain/confirmed of supernatural origin.

        If one examines Cardinal Ratzinger's letter carefully, they will see that he classifies the Poem into the third category (non-constat de supernaturalitate). What has been translated into English to read; "cannot be considered supernatural origin" simply means that the events have not been confirmed by the Church to be of supernatural origin. The Cardinal was only ordering the publishers at the time to tell their readers that they cannot yet consider it a proven fact that the Poem is of supernatural origin (which the publishers complied with, posting it on the back cover of the 1993 edition).
       
     In light of historical context, we find the statement to make sense too, considering the Holy Office never initiated an investigation into the life of the visionary. Without an investigation, it could neither positively confirm supernatural origin, nor negatively disprove supernatural origin (as outlined by the norms for investigating alleged apparitions). Thus, since neither classification #1 or #2 apply, then by default we must conclude; "it cannot be confirmed supernatural", classification #3.


    1994: Pope John Paul II opens the beatification process for Venerable Fr. Gabriel Allegra--an outspoken supporter of Maria Valtorta [18] and renowned Scripture scholar--who is then declared Venerable. The decree of beatification was promulgated in 2002.

    [18] Venerable Fr. Allegra writes; "When completed the Poem makes us better understand the Gospel, but does not contradict it….. I find no other works of eminent scripture exegetes which complete and clarify the Canonical Gospels so naturally, so spontaneously, with such liveliness as does The Poem of Valtorta." 18

    2001: Bishop Roman Danylak grants an additional written Imprimatur of the Poem. 19

    To read parts of the Poem online, you may do so at the following address; www.valtorta.org


     NOTES & REFERENCES:

     1. Bollettino D'Informazione Valtortiana [Edizioni Pisani, no. 19, June 1979, p.74]
    2. Cf. Signed testimony of Rev. Corrado Berti, OSM, [ link1, link2 ]
    3. His Excellency Msgr. Alphonse Carinci [Secretary of the Sacred Congregation of Rites and vicar for the Causes of the Saints] and Rev. Augustin Bea, S.J. (later Cardinal) [confessor of Pope Pius XII, and rector and professor of the Pontifical Biblical Institute of Rome]
     4. opt. cit., Section III. See aslo, The Valtorta Newsletter (Box 492, Sherbrooke, Ouebec, Canada, JIH 5K2), no.6, Winter, 1992, p.4. The word chosen by Pope Pius Xll was actually "Publicate," an imperative form, stronger than "Imprimatur". [referenced footnote]
     5. Father Corrado Berti [Professor of Dogmatic Sacramental Theology], Father Romualdo M. Migliorini [Prefect apostolic in Africa], and Father Andrew M. Cecchin [Prior of the international College of the Servites of Mary in Rome]. The papal audience was historically docuмented the next day, February 27, 1948, in L’Osservatore Romano  
     6. opt. cit. Signed testimony of Rev. Corrado Berti, OSM, Section IX. See also; Interview of Msgr.  Macchi, private secretary of Pope Paul VI, to Fr. C. M. Berti OSM [ link ]
     7. Norms in Proceeding in Judging Alleged Apparitions, promulgated by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith [link]. See also; Private Revelation, Catholic Encyclopedia [link]
     8. Maria Valtorta Her Life and Her Work, Bishop Roman Danylak [link]
     9. The Church and Maria Valtorta’s Poem of the Man-God, Emilio Pisani [publisher], Section I. [link]
     10. Ibid., Section I
     11. opt. cit., Pisani, [link]
     12. opt. cit. Bishop Roman Danylak, [link]  (see also; Pisani, link)
     13. p.21, Note 17. Cf.
     14. June 14, 1966; AAS vol. 58, 445, Signed Alfredo card. Ottaviani, June 14th 1966
    15.The Secretariat of State is highest ranked curial official next to the pope, and is considered the popes "right arm". Those who question whether the letter was written with the popes authorization are advised to look up the job description for the Secretariat of State, for this is what he does. Even though the pope may not have put the pen to the paper, the implication is the same. [link] [link]
     16. opt. cit., Pisani, [link]
    17. The CDF also required this same disclaimer to be placed on the inside cover of Blessed Catherine Emmerich's writings.
     18. Critique, Notes, and Letters on the Poem of the Man-God, Venerable Fr. Gabriele Allegra, [link]
     19. See note 12. [also see link, link]
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Ethelred

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    Eleison Comments 275 - by Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #54 on: October 24, 2012, 04:35:22 AM »
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  • It's disturbing to see how many traditional Catholics here eat our good Bishop Williamson alive, because on a rare occasion he dares to recommend a controversial book -- which was published in 10 or more volumes, so who can bear all its details in mind.

    Folks, that's no way to treat an earned senior bishop -- our last one I'd like to add, as far as we Ex-(?)-SSPX'ers are concerned. Please show respect to this good bishop who's our friend, even when he writes something you don't agree with! And so please say your criticism carefully and with dignity, if it's criticism at all and not just hot air.
    Otherwise the brave Bishop Richard "Lionheart" Williamson would have to think: With friends like these, who needs enemies?

    I haven't read Valtorta and I just decided not to read it because my spiritual father says it's rather boring despite a few good passages. Yes, the good bishop recommended Valtorta in his writings sometimes, but remember that this "sometimes" is equal to very seldom.
    Maybe it was in God's plan that this now controversial EC reaches those souls who liked Valtorta but who weren't aware of the EC? I would hope so... :-)

    As a simple layman I can't judge if the good bishop is mistaken in recommending this controversial book. Yes, the brave bishop is having a soft spot for private-revelations. And we all have soft spots. I know however for sure that Bishop Williamson is an extremely good shepherd, and it's not right when traditional Catholics eat him alive here, and several times with "very, very limited intelligence" attacks (*).


    Well, indeed the whole world and in particular we Catholics are in need of God's Chastisement, bringing a purification to the global and nearly total mess we are in. We're all doing just too fine, which feeds our arrogance. The burden to oppose bad popes and their hierarchy for 50+ years starts to be just too much for most of us. In the end we would trust no one anymore, not even the best clerics who're still there, because we would deny any authority...  

    Many here forgot that this EC's main point was the pedagogical aspect, i.e. parents reading out religious books to their children and then having a discussion round, with good questions from the children and even better answers from the parents. And I'm very thankful for that.  

    Many also forgot the circuмstances when this EC has been written: during the expulsion procedure of Bishop Williamson, when to had to fight the Menzingen betrayers tooth and nail. I heard one result of this fight is a longer and very hard hitting letter to the liberal Bp. Fellay, probably the "open letter" which Bp. Fellay mentioned. Hopefully this open letter will soon be in the open.


    P.S. It's interesting to see how few of you commented the excellent Eleison-Comments during the last years... They've all been published here on Cathinfo. Still the echo was mostly very, very limited. Why so? We take it for granted that the good shepherd is publishing high-quality Eleison-Comments in five world languages week after week? We shouldn't.




    (*) Like indirectly accusing him of Judaizing, or "Could EC be in the hands of others, already and now being used to distance the flock- from the shepherd?", or "Not just satire but hyperbole as well", or That H.E. should write such a EC makes one wonder if his drinks have been laced., I am not accusing +Williamson of being an infiltrator, but pointing to some facts which should make us to be cautious, to observe and to avoid trusting blindly in anyone..., etc. Oh dear.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Eleison Comments 275 - by Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #55 on: October 24, 2012, 02:02:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ethelred
    It's disturbing to see how many traditional Catholics here eat our good Bishop Williamson alive, because on a rare occasion he dares to recommend a controversial book -- which was published in 10 or more volumes, so who can bear all its details in mind.

    Folks, that's no way to treat an earned senior bishop -- our last one I'd like to add, as far as we Ex-(?)-SSPX'ers are concerned. Please show respect to this good bishop who's our friend, even when he writes something you don't agree with! And so please say your criticism carefully and with dignity, if it's criticism at all and not just hot air.
    Otherwise the brave Bishop Richard "Lionheart" Williamson would have to think: With friends like these, who needs enemies?

    I haven't read Valtorta and I just decided not to read it because my spiritual father says it's rather boring despite a few good passages. Yes, the good bishop recommended Valtorta in his writings sometimes, but remember that this "sometimes" is equal to very seldom.
    Maybe it was in God's plan that this now controversial EC reaches those souls who liked Valtorta but who weren't aware of the EC? I would hope so... :-)

    As a simple layman I can't judge if the good bishop is mistaken in recommending this controversial book. Yes, the brave bishop is having a soft spot for private-revelations. And we all have soft spots. I know however for sure that Bishop Williamson is an extremely good shepherd, and it's not right when traditional Catholics eat him alive here, and several times with "very, very limited intelligence" attacks (*).


    Well, indeed the whole world and in particular we Catholics are in need of God's Chastisement, bringing a purification to the global and nearly total mess we are in. We're all doing just too fine, which feeds our arrogance. The burden to oppose bad popes and their hierarchy for 50+ years starts to be just too much for most of us. In the end we would trust no one anymore, not even the best clerics who're still there, because we would deny any authority...  

    Many here forgot that this EC's main point was the pedagogical aspect, i.e. parents reading out religious books to their children and then having a discussion round, with good questions from the children and even better answers from the parents. And I'm very thankful for that.  

    Many also forgot the circuмstances when this EC has been written: during the expulsion procedure of Bishop Williamson, when to had to fight the Menzingen betrayers tooth and nail. I heard one result of this fight is a longer and very hard hitting letter to the liberal Bp. Fellay, probably the "open letter" which Bp. Fellay mentioned. Hopefully this open letter will soon be in the open.


    P.S. It's interesting to see how few of you commented the excellent Eleison-Comments during the last years... They've all been published here on Cathinfo. Still the echo was mostly very, very limited. Why so? We take it for granted that the good shepherd is publishing high-quality Eleison-Comments in five world languages week after week? We shouldn't.




    (*) Like indirectly accusing him of Judaizing, or "Could EC be in the hands of others, already and now being used to distance the flock- from the shepherd?", or "Not just satire but hyperbole as well", or That H.E. should write such a EC makes one wonder if his drinks have been laced., I am not accusing +Williamson of being an infiltrator, but pointing to some facts which should make us to be cautious, to observe and to avoid trusting blindly in anyone..., etc. Oh dear.




    Great post Ethelred!

    We needed to be reminded of the rich letters of insight and wisdom coming fro Kyrie Elieson.  This has been our guide during the last three years of turmoil.

    Bishop Williamson, IS lion-hearted and not afraid to speak about the Book of the Apocalyse, as is Father Gruner.

    His Excellency has studied and endorsed Our Lady of Akita and Garabandal.  Many people do not agree and Msgr. Williamson, but he always gives his reasons why he thinks the way he does.

    I hope Bp. Williamson's letter to Bp. Fellay is made public soon.
    In the meantime, we can expect a new campaign of "Uranium" villification coming from Menzingen.

    As Max, the legal, financial, politcal consultant knows, its good politics to demean your critics when you have them down.




    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Eleison Comments 275 - by Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #56 on: October 29, 2012, 11:37:50 PM »
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  • I just posted this on another thread (without the RED FLAG paragraph) but it
    really has more in common with this thread, so I thought it would be a good
    idea to plunk it in here as well for anyone who wants to read these topics
    organized-like......................




    Quote from: Adolphus
    Quote from: MiserereMeiDeus
    Quote from: Adolphus
    His recommendation to read Valtorta's book, which was disapproved by the Church en 1949 and then included in the Index in 1959.  Bp. Williamson has recommended this book at least two times.


    In 1948 Pope Pius XII gave verbal permission for the book to be published according to three credible witnesses who signed a statement to that effect. When it was put on the index, the stated reason was that it hadn't been issued an imprimatur. Apparently the reason for that was that the publisher was in a big hurry to get it published and sent it straight to Rome without getting the local ordinary to sign off on it first. Anyway, it's not a straightforward story, with much more than meets the eye, and Vatican politics involved.


    I'm sorry, but the verbal permission is unacceptable.  Who says so?  Those interested in publishing the book.  It is hard to believe that the pope, without having read the whole writing would have ordered to be printed.  You call three credible witnesses, but I wonder what makes you qualify them as credible.

    What has been docuмented is that, in 1949 the Holy Office refused to give the Imprimatur.  The book was printed anyway and then included in the Index.

    The book contains confusing ideas, to say the least.  Why to recommend it?  Aren't there many other books without confusing ideas?

    +Williamson said that even Maria Valtorta wasn't sure about who had inspired her the writings: God or Satan.



    Dear Adolphus,

    You are obviously not a native English speaker.  I agree with you inasmuch as
    sometimes the writings of +Williamson in English (a language in which he is most
    eminently accomplished) are not that easily understood in English by other native
    English speakers.  But when you translate them into other languages, it can only
    get worse, as you probably know.  This applies to everything he writes, as it
    applies to everything everyone else writes as well, but for +W, whose words are
    not arranged as any pedestrian author would do, it is even more challenging.

    Most readers of the EC 275 saw and heard it pretty much as you did, and so I
    must admit, I did as well -- at first.  

    I put it aside for a day, and came back to it, and lo, I saw quite a horse of
    quite a different color.
      Does that mean there had been a brown horse before,
    and now there is a white horse, instead?  This is an example of how words can
    mean quite something different from what they mean at first glance.  

    I can offer two examples right away.

    Quote
    ...a few readers wrote in to ask just how homes might be fortified. In fact various spiritual and material means of defending home and family have been suggested in previous numbers of the “Comments”, notably of course the Holy Rosary, but one fortification has gone unmentioned which I think I would try in place of television if I had a family to defend: reading aloud each night to the children selected chapters from Maria Valtorta’s Poem of the Man-God. And when we had reached the end of the five volumes in English, I imagine us starting again from the beginning, and so on, until all the children had left home !


    Did he suggest reading this Poem in its entirety to children of all ages? No.
    Did he recommend that it is better than the Rosary?  No.
    What did he recommend?  He said that INSTEAD of Television, to "defend" your
    family (from modern worldliness and associated attacks of the devil) selected
    chapters (!) of the Poem could be read aloud.
     Did he say which chapters? No.

    Did he explain how you can know if a given chapter is appropriate for YOUR age?
    No, he did not.

    So how are Catholic families supposed to use this advice to their benefit if they
    don't know which parts of the Poem to read and which parts they should NOT
    read???

    ECs are not meant for those who are entirely disconnected from the current
    challenges to the Faith.  If you live in a remote place and don't want to be up
    with the times, then fine, read your Bible, pray your Rosary and keep the TV off.
    But most of us are not like that.  We who are keeping up with the news know that
    Bishops Fellay and DiNoia and Mueller all agree that Vatican II has many
    redeeming qualities and we should line up like lemmings to avail ourselves of
    the fabulous new 'plenary indulgence' for contemplating Vatican II docuмents
    this year.  Does the 'plenary indulgence' say which parts of the Vat.II docs are
    not decent material for the faithful to read? No, it does not.

    If you are familiar with the style of +Williamson, you would know immediately,
    or at least upon due reflection, that what he is actually saying here is that
    Reading Vat.II docs because they say you can get an indulgence is just about
    as safe as reading Valtorta's Poem of the Man God to your children because a
    bishop says it can "fortify your home" -- for you know that there are DANGEROUS
    parts of Vat.II docs and there are DANGEROUS parts of the Poem, but you are
    not qualified to judge which parts those are!!   So how can you know when not
    to read a sentence or two in either one?  You CAN'T!

    Finally, his last sentence above begins with "I imagine...," which is actually a
    sentence all by itself.  It has a subject and a verb, like "I walk." or "You know."
    But whenever +W prefaces his words to come with saying, "I imagine," he is
    telling you, "This is a red flag to warn you there is a cliff coming up, so take
    care and don't fall off the cliff, okay?  He is basically asking you to be HIGHLY
    SUSPECT of what he is about to say, because if you
    have been reading his critical epistles on the Modern Age, his NUMBER ONE
    beef is against subjectivism.  And subjectivism is ALL ABOUT what "I"
    have in "my mind," because "I create my own reality," and it's all about "my
    own imagination," basically.  So for him, he actually feels PAIN when he has
    to write the words, "I imagine," because he knows there will be some who
    simply miss the RED FLAG and go right off the cliff anyway.


    Quote
    From the reading of chapters of the Poem selected according to the children’s age, I can imagine almost no end to how much they could learn about Our Lord and Our Lady. And the questions they would ask ! And the answers that the parents would have to come up with !


    Does he say here that what they would 'learn' about Our Lord and Our Lady
    would necessarily be all 'good' things by your reading of even "selected chapters"
    that MAY be appropriate for their age group (and then again, maybe not!)?
    No, he does not.  

    And the questions they would ask -- would be all nice, easy questions, right?
    No, that is incorrect: he did not say they would.

    And the answers the parents would have to come up with would always be the
    kind of answers that lead their children TOWARD the faith, instead of AWAY from
    it, correct?  No, that is INCORRECT.

    In summary, if you do start reading the Poem to your family, you may:
    ~ be reading material inappropriate for their age, if you guess wrong;
    ~ be better off just praying the Rosary together;
    ~ likely select inappropriate chapters for any age, even your OWN age;
    ~ soon discover that you just never know when any sentence will scandalize you;
    ~ find your children learning EVIL things about Our Lord and Our Lady from the Poem;
    ~ be faced with difficult challenges to answer your children well;
    ~ discover your reading is pushing your children away from the faith.

    Does it still look like he is recommending that you read the Poem to your family?


    Now, I don't know how this EC looks to a Frenchman in French or a Spaniard
    in Spanish, but I do know that you don't have to depend on Googlebabbleator
    to get French or Spanish versions.  They're available on the EC website.

    And furthermore, it is now evident that this EC 275 was a warm-up to his
    OPEN LETTER TO BISHOP FELLAY ON AN "EXCLUSION" which is not quite as
    cryptic as EC 275, but it does have its own hurdles to share.  In other words,
    if you could make it through the Poem (poetry often does not say what it seems
    to say by looking only at the words it contains!) EC 275, and know that he is
    NOT really expecting you to read that drivel to your children, then you would
    most likely be able to read the OPEN LETTER and know that you are not
    misunderstanding that too.  

    However, if you read EC 275 and come away miffed that he's recommending
    that you corrupt your family by following his advice, then perhaps you ought to
    just take a powder* on the OPEN LETTER, because it's most likely it will go right
    over your head.  




    *take a powder is an American English idiom that has nothing to do with
    moving finely ground substances, used for dusting purposes, from one place
    to another.










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    Offline Nadir

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    Eleison Comments 275 - by Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #57 on: October 30, 2012, 05:00:41 AM »
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  • Marian T. Horvat's book review of Valtorta’s Poem of the Man-God published in response to

    Quote
    an e-mail asking about Maria Valtorta and her Poem of the Man-God.... (from a friend who) received a recent issue of Kyrie Eleison comments of Bishop Richard Williamson titled “Home Reading” (October 20, 2012). In it, he recommends parents read selected chapters of the Poem of the Man-God to children every night.


    here: http://www.traditioninaction.org/bkreviews/A_042_Valtorta.htm
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Eleison Comments 275 - by Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #58 on: October 30, 2012, 07:05:17 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nadir
    Marian T. Horvat's book review of Valtorta’s Poem of the Man-God published in response to

    Quote
    an e-mail asking about Maria Valtorta and her Poem of the Man-God.... (from a friend who) received a recent issue of Kyrie Eleison comments of Bishop Richard Williamson titled “Home Reading” (October 20, 2012). In it, he recommends parents read selected chapters of the Poem of the Man-God to children every night.


    here: http://www.traditioninaction.org/bkreviews/A_042_Valtorta.htm


    Well, that was really something else.  Horvat in her article answering the e-mail
    question from a reader, picked out several passages from the Poem that
    specifically meet none of the bishop's requirements.  

    Horvat found things to quote that are not appropriate for readers of any age,
    much less children.  Did +W say that such passages do not exist? No, he did not.

    Did +W recommend reading the passages Horvat quotes on her answer page?
    No, he did not.

    In fact, +W indicates that there may well be inappropriate passages (such as
    the ones Horvat quotes) and seems to say they should be avoided!  And so
    what does Horvat do?  She does NOT avoid them, and claims "he defends
    Valtorta’s massive tome... The Bishop supports it, despite the objections he
    lists: that it is riddled with doctrinal errors, that it humanizes Our Lord Jesus
    Christ, and that the work was placed on the Church’s Index of Forbidden Books
    in the 1950s."

    So Marian T. Horvat, in answer to her reader's question on whether or not it's a
    good idea to follow her subjective interpretation of +W's EC 275, proceeds to
    demonstrate how NOT to do what the bishop recommends, and then practically
    blames the bishop for making the wrong recommendation?  

    And no mention of the analogy to Vat.II docuмents.  

    I will admit, +W made no specific reference to the Vat.II docs.  IMHO it would be
    an improvement if he could do so in this coming EC 277, to perhaps clear up
    some of the confusion left in the wake of EC 275.  We shall see.

    The overall effect of this EC 275 has been negative.  I cannot disagree that it is
    all too easy to interpret it in a way that makes the reader think less of the
    soundness of the author's advice.  And I do place it squarely in his lap to step
    forward and explain what he had in mind for writing what he did.  I have tried to
    show how NOT to interpret his words, but in all fairness, readers looking for
    sound advice should not have to think that it is all too possible to accidentally
    get the whole meaning of his advice wrong, backwards and upside-down.  

    He could have ended it by saying NOT to read the Poem, but I'll leave it up to
    him to explain why he did not.  I'm sure there is a reason, but I would have to
    speculate even FURTHER to arrive at one.





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    Offline Ethelred

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    Eleison Comments 275 - by Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #59 on: October 30, 2012, 07:51:43 AM »
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  • Me thinks that you people tend to make a mountain out of a dust speck.

    What about real sorrows? The "Sandy" hundred-year storm is a sign for the global "dikes of lies" collapsing soon. Hang tight, everybody. We are in for one “helluva” ride. Let’s just make that a ride to Heaven!