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Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: Miseremini on March 08, 2014, 08:16:42 PM

Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: Miseremini on March 08, 2014, 08:16:42 PM
Number CCCXLVII (347)   8th March 2014

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FIFTIESISM OBSERVED
If there is, at least up till now, relatively little reaction from within the Society of St Pius X to its complete change of direction under Bishop Fellay, that is because of the desire to return to the Catholicism of the 1950’s. So observes a Catholic attending Mass at an SSPX Chapel in the English-speaking world. She wrote to me recently:--

“Why is there no "Resistance" in our part of the world ? I think I've figured it out. You've mentioned many times that most of the original leaders of the Society of St Pius X never really understood Archbishop Lefebvre. Locally, I think that that applies to many of our original chapel founders here, who are the ones clinging to the Society and to its present leaders. How come ? Why don't they take action, when what they fought so long and hard for is threatened with destruction from within?

“On Sunday, an elderly lady summed it up for me. As she and her husband see it, they strove valiantly through the 1970s into the early 80s, and the fruit of their labours is the chapel itself. The Mass with all the outward trappings, the property, the buildings, the pews, the statues, the vestments -- this is what is threatened by the mere existence of the Resistance! They fought all those years to restore for themselves the Catholicism of their youth. For them, it's NOT a question of doctrine at all. The woman is member of a Third Order, yet she believes doctrinal matters are for priests and bishops, not laity. For example, to study Papal encyclicals is meddling in affairs that God assigned to the hierarchy.

“I asked if they see a need to understand their Faith, if individual souls do not answer to God for knowing their Faith? Their response was sincere, I believe, but to me it was astonishing. They said, ‘No! The responsibility of the Catholic is to obey his superiors.’ And if the superiors are in error? ‘Obey anyway! To do otherwise is rebellion.’ It is for a Catholic ‘a sign of rebellion’ to even question his superiors ‘in matters that do not concern him,’ i.e. doctrine. If the superior is wrong, God will judge him – ‘You will never go wrong obeying the priest.’ So there you have it. The Resistants are rebels, disobedient, disrespectful. How dare they question the superior? How dare they presume to study doctrine, to ask questions of their superiors about it? The Resistants are evil, not because they are doctrinally wrong, but because their words and actions threaten the Catholicism of the 1950’s.

“But blind obedience is ridiculous! What are we lambs to do when the Shepherd is struck and the sheep are scattered ? Pretend all is well. and let ourselves be devoured by wolves in the name of obedience ? What can one say to such people? They are wilfully ignorant in the belief that wilful ignorance is a virtue! Where does such a mindset come from ? What error crept into the Church to make Catholics switch off their minds? All I can say is that if the SSPX is left with flocks of lobotomised sheep, it will be easy for Rome to wipe out the last fortress of Tradition! The SSPX chapels need only to be handed over to the jurisdiction of the local bishop by formal agreement, or by de facto cooperation with Novus Ordo priests, which we have seen locally.”

Notice her evocation of the possibility of Rome absorbing the SSPX no longer by any clear-cut agreement, but by a gradual merger. It is a real danger. I wonder if that is not what SSPX HQ is being advised to do by its “new friends” in Rome.

Kyrie eleison

A lack of resistance to the liberal slide of the SSPX is partly explained by souls only wanting to return to the 1950’s.
 
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Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: Unbrandable on March 08, 2014, 08:36:29 PM
Quote from: Miseremini
“I asked if they see a need to understand their Faith, if individual souls do not answer to God for knowing their Faith? Their response was sincere, I believe, but to me it was astonishing. They said, ‘No! The responsibility of the Catholic is to obey his superiors.’ And if the superiors are in error? ‘Obey anyway! To do otherwise is rebellion.’ It is for a Catholic ‘a sign of rebellion’ to even question his superiors ‘in matters that do not concern him,’ i.e. doctrine. If the superior is wrong, God will judge him – ‘You will never go wrong obeying the priest.’




"One must understand the meaning of obedience and must distinguish between blind obedience and the virtue of obedience. Indiscriminate obedience is actually a sin against the virtue of obedience." - Archbishop Lefebvre, July 1978 (SSPXAsia.com: Interview with Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre)



Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: Neil Obstat on March 09, 2014, 03:17:36 AM
.



As usual, the EC is food for thought.  But this time, it's a whole lot more.

This is great stuff.  And it's very timely.  

We will look back at this in years to come and wonder why we didn't pay better attention

when there was still time.............
.


(I'm going to add some formatting to make it easier to see who's talking..
+W is in blue, his author is in black, and the IDEAS of the person his author refers to are in dark red.)



Quote from: Miseremini said +W


Number CCCXLVII (347)                8th March 2014

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FIFTIESISM OBSERVED


If there is, at least up till now, relatively little reaction from within the Society of St Pius X to its complete change of direction under Bishop Fellay, that is because of the desire to return to the Catholicism of the 1950’s. So observes a Catholic attending Mass at an SSPX Chapel in the English-speaking world. She wrote to me recently:--
 


+W has touched on this theme previously over the years, and he has raised the red flag of warning, planting the seed of awareness in the minds of his listeners.  This, it seems to me, is another reason +F had it in for +W for so many years, perhaps since day one, but +F kept his differences concealed so he could first gain power before taking military action.

+W is quoting below (in black) a letter from a Catholic who has paid attention, and has learned the lesson, and now, +W would like to show us what good fruit looks like when it comes to maturity.  He doesn't say so, but he is pleased with seeing his work bearing such good fruit after so many years of labor in the vineyard.

Quote
“Why is there no "Resistance" in our part of the world ? I think I've figured it out. You've mentioned many times that most of the original leaders of the Society of St Pius X never really understood Archbishop Lefebvre. Locally, I think that that applies to many of our original chapel founders here, who are the ones clinging to the Society and to its present leaders. How come? Why don't they take action, when what they fought so long and hard for is threatened with destruction from within?


It would be nice to know:  what part of the world is it, of which she speaks?  Can anyone take a guess?  We have clues:  "SSPX chapel in the English-speaking world."  If she is from Southern California, I would be pleased to make her acquaintance!  

This theme of "never really understanding ABL" is a chilling thought, really.  It gives pause to ask:  "Do I really understand him?"  This reflects on MANY of the cccxlvi previous ECs.  

I.e., There is a LOT more to say about this!

This touches close to home for me, because I see it happening all around me.  I see founders who have labored long and hard to keep what was slipping away from them, and now, they simply refuse to think that there is some kind of danger.  "But the SSPX are very good priests," they say, and do not want to see any of the Resistance writings.  They don't want to know about the great Fr. Patrick Girouard and Sacrificium.org.  They don't want to know about the excellent letters of fine, traditional priests like Fr. Fuchs or Fr. Trauner or Fr. Violette or Fr. Hewko or Fr. Cardozo.  They turn a blind eye to the Open Letter to Fr. Themann, and refuse to think about any of the questions it raises.  

They don't want to think about it.


Quote
“On Sunday, an elderly lady summed it up for me. As she and her husband see it, they strove valiantly through the 1970s into the early 80s, and the fruit of their labours is the chapel itself. The Mass with all the outward trappings, the property, the buildings, the pews, the statues, the vestments -- this is what is threatened by the mere existence of the Resistance! ..


She spells "labours" as a Brit, so maybe she's in Scotland!  Because if she was anywhere near London, there IS a Resistance in THAT part of the world!

This is key.  When there is a fire, and your house is about to burn down, do you say that the Fire Department threatens the existence of your home?  When you have a heart attack, and you go to the hospital, do you say that the nurses and the doctors are the cause of your health problems?  When your car makes a loud banging noise in the engine and a friend tells you it sounds like you have a CONNECTING ROD problem, and it can get really serious, like you're going to need a new engine, do you blame him for being "what threatens the reliability of your transportation?"

Quote
..They fought all those years to restore for themselves the Catholicism of their youth. For them, it's NOT a question of doctrine at all.


Actually, +W has already talked about this.  It's called 'subjectivism' -- they think it's "not a question" of doctrine at all.  (Remember Fr. Themann and his definition of truth, "Truth is not firstly a question of words but of the ideas for which the words stand?")

Quote
The woman is member of a Third Order, yet she believes doctrinal matters are for priests and bishops, not laity. For example, to study Papal encyclicals is meddling in affairs that God assigned to the hierarchy.


Ah, yes, "This is much too difficult for me!  I'd like to return to my Bingo and Lawrence Welk re-runs."

So she's a member of a Third Order -- again, I'd love to know the name of the order.  Any guesses?  Franciscan?  Dominican?  Benedictine?  SSPX??

I know a CMRI priest who told a group of Catholics in my presence that to understand Pascendi (by Pope St. Pius X), "you need to have a degree in theology."  Well, if I ever hear anyone say that again in my presence, I'll tell them to their face that there are plenty of people WITH theology degrees who have no clue of what Pascendi means, and there are plenty of people WITHOUT any degree in theology who understand it quite well, so a degree in theology is neither here nor there, when it comes to understanding Modernism.  What matters is God's grace, good will, and a little bit of ELBOW GREASE.

If encyclicals were meant only for the eyes of priests and the hierarchy, then why are they made public?  Hmmmm???

Quote
“I asked if they see a need to understand their Faith, if individual souls do not answer to God for knowing their Faith?

Their response was sincere, I believe, but to me it was astonishing. They said, ‘No! The responsibility of the Catholic is to obey his superiors.’ And if the superiors are in error? ‘Obey anyway! To do otherwise is rebellion.’ It is for a Catholic ‘a sign of rebellion’ to even question his superiors ‘in matters that do not concern him,’ i.e. doctrine. If the superior is wrong, God will judge him – ‘You will never go wrong obeying the priest.’

So there you have it. The Resistants are rebels, disobedient, disrespectful. How dare they question the superior? How dare they presume to study doctrine, to ask questions of their superiors about it?

The Resistants are evil, not because they are doctrinally wrong, but because their words and actions threaten the Catholicism of the 1950’s.


Good words bear repeating:

The Resistants are EVIL, not because they are doctrinally wrong (for their doctrine is solid as a rock, but DOCTRINE IS NOT OUR CONCERN -- it's the concern of the clergy, and none of our beeswax!!) but because their words and actions threaten the Catholicism of the 1950's!!

Quote
“But blind obedience is ridiculous!  What are we lambs to do when the Shepherd is struck and the sheep are scattered?  Pretend all is well, and let ourselves be devoured by wolves in the name of obedience?  

What can one say to such people?
They are wilfully ignorant in the belief that wilful ignorance is a virtue!



Uhhh.... bowler!   Stubborn!  We have a live one here!!  


Quote
Where does such a mindset come from?


Is that a rhetorical question, or do you really want to know the answer?

Because I have the answer for you, and so does Stubborn, and so does bowler.  Maybe you will believe THEM, if you won't believe me!!

Quote
What error crept into the Church to make Catholics switch off their minds? All I can say is that if the SSPX is left with flocks of lobotomised sheep, it will be easy for Rome to wipe out the last fortress of Tradition! The SSPX chapels need only to be handed over to the jurisdiction of the local bishop by formal agreement, or by de facto cooperation with Novus Ordo priests, which we have seen locally.”

Notice her evocation of the possibility of Rome absorbing the SSPX no longer by any clear-cut agreement, but by a gradual merger.  It is a real danger.  I wonder if that is not what SSPX HQ is being advised to do by its “new friends” in Rome.

Kyrie eleison

A lack of resistance to the liberal slide of the SSPX is partly explained by souls only wanting to return to the 1950’s.

 

 
www.dinoscopus.org



I don't think we need to wonder at all.  The XSPX is being advised by its new friends in Rome, as well as the Re-branding company in Holland, and by GREC -- it's like Warsaw at the beginning of WWII, attacked by nαzιs from the north and the southwest, and by the Soviets from the east, all at the same time.  The only difference is, the XSPX seems to be ENJOYING the attack.  


.
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: Neil Obstat on March 09, 2014, 03:37:46 AM
.

This FALSE PRINCIPLE that it is the duty of Catholics to blindly obey their 'superiors' and that you "can't go wrong" when you follow your priest, is refuted by Scripture and the words of Our Lord.  

Jesus Christ never taught such a stupid doctrine.  What did He say?  


Let your yes be yes and your no, no, for anything else is from the devil.

It is for us to be respecters not of men, but of God;  and it's better to obey God rather than to obey men.  

When the blind lead the blind, they both fall into the pit (of hell).  

Hold fast to the traditions that have been handed down to you, whether by word or by epistle.  If you can't bother to read and study, then your ignorance will be your own undoing.

For there will come a time when men shall turn to fables, having itching ears, and will seek out teachers who will tell them what they want to hear.  They will seek out false doctrine so they can then blame their priests for their own errors, but in the final judgment, the whole lot of them will be damned to hell.  

We live in an age when the information is widely available, and you don't have any problem seeking out the truth.  So you have no excuse, even if your priest leads you into error.  By the grace of God you will learn where your priest has gone astray.  By the grace of God you can move mountains.  



.
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: Wessex on March 09, 2014, 07:34:30 AM
Only the elderly know the 50s. And so many were treating Sunday ceremonial as recreation while the rest of the week they were active participants in the brave new world. This juxtaposition works better when religious obligation becomes undemanding cultural belonging. Those born later have only revivalist simulation to rely upon but it continues to be a solution for contemporary Catholics needing more glamour. And Retro is big business!

The bishop again speaks through someone else. It is a clever tactic and avoids direct responsibility although he is getting a message across while perhaps posturing a neutral position airing the grievances of others. Gosh, he should have been a politician ..... he was made for today!

If he is saying ABL was never really understood, we all could be forgiven for not understanding him. He had his own logic and sense of importance which would skew the counter-movement and continue to do so. Why does he not bear some responsibility for the way the Society is today? Flirting with Rome was a policy long before his successors delighted in it. And it has to be said Bp. Williamson enjoyed his fair share over a very long period.

Rehashing what happens when an institution goes wrong becomes very boring. We know the script  ..... but let those so aggrieved go through the motions if it makes them feel better. I only hope the bish moves into positive territory before long because we are suffering from 'resistance' exhaustion! And I was never that fond of the SSPX anyway!
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: parentsfortruth on March 09, 2014, 12:09:44 PM
This illustrates the attitude of most of the Saint Michael's parishioners to an absolute T.
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: Miseremini on March 09, 2014, 01:27:43 PM
Quote from: Miseremini


 Their response was sincere, I believe, but to me it was astonishing. They said, ‘No! The responsibility of the Catholic is to obey his superiors.’ And if the superiors are in error? ‘Obey anyway! To do otherwise is rebellion.’ It is for a Catholic ‘a sign of rebellion’ to even question his superiors ‘in matters that do not concern him,’ i.e. doctrine. If the superior is wrong, God will judge him – ‘You will never go wrong obeying the priest.’ So there you have it..

.


If they truly believed this they would have obeyed their superiors in the late 1960's and '70's and they would now be Novus Ordo !
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: John Grace on March 09, 2014, 04:45:23 PM
Quote
As usual, the EC is food for thought.  But this time, it's a whole lot more.

This is great stuff.  And it's very timely.  

We will look back at this in years to come and wonder why we didn't pay better attention

when there was still time..........


Agreed. The EC is very timely. A very necessary EC.
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: hugeman on March 09, 2014, 06:36:51 PM
It has little to do with fifty-ism. For most of the bamboozled in Ridgefield, New Jersey, Hartford, NYC, Long Island, Philadelphia-- they were not around in the fifty's. They were not around in the sixty's. Most were not even around in the early seventy's! A lot of the (more mature) SSPX goers joined from the Novus Ordo in the eighty's. Nostalgia, consistency, sense of discipline, decorum and such things brought them in-- not any adherence to doctrine. If it was doctrine-- they would have revolted when Lorans, de Mallerais, Schmidberger, Williamson, Fellay,Aulangier and others were pushing Archbishop Lefebvre toward s an "agreement" in 1988. VERY FEW resisted. Almost all the priests were in favor of an agreement!!
   Rome had shown precious little of returning to Catholicism; yet, most SSPX priests wanted an agreement. What kind of adherence to doctrine is that?
    They were tired of being called "schismatic" (like the SSPX is today). Because they never fully understood Archbishop Lefebvre's great question of 1976 (I think that's the year):" Suspended by who? By what Church? By the Conciliar church--a church to which I have no desire to belong?"
   If they understood that statement (for it is a statement--he was not looking for an answer, he gave the answer in the question) they NEVER would have accepted to slide into friendship with the Vatican during the 90's and 2000's. They certainly would not have been gleeful about the 2000 pilgrimage of homage to JPII.
    Whatever brought them in (to SSPX chapels), the nice imagery helped them stay. The conciliar "heat" was turned down low, so they now accepted modern doctrines little by little.
    In the late sixty's and early seventy's , the "conservative" stalwarts still inside the diocesan parishes told us: "we know its bad-- these abuses and crazy things the priests are saying; but the 'Holy Father' (Paul VI) doesn't approve--and he does not know about it! Write him a letter and let him know!" In the late 90's and early 2000's, Fellay and Co. changed this to:'Oh its soo bad-- but the 'holy father'(sic) is conservative, and he's trying to turn it around--we only have to get into Rome and we can turn it around!"  In the early 90's, Schmidberger even bragged that  'If I had only 1,000 priests, we would turn the entire Church back to the true faith.'
    So again, they never understood the Archbishop. He had fought unbelievers and anti-christians in the jungles of Africa. And he knew you had to fight on doctrine. he knew you had to fight on the truth. he knew you had to "tear down their altars"  The Archbishop did to the unbelievers in Africa exactly what Martin Luther, Crammer, Bugnini and Ratzinger did to the believers:"Tear down their Altars!"
    When the Archbishop told Ratzinger that 'even if you give us an independence, you give us a seat at the commission, you give us a bishop-- WE WOULD STILL BE SWALLOWED UP, we would be destroyed in short order', most people in the SSPX, and most priests, have no idea what the Archbishop meant! They were following the man because of his personal piety and sanctity, his personal magnetism. They were following his priests because, for a time, they all held the aura of ABL.
    And, as they aged, their children were put into SSPX schools. Their names are on the pews. The Family names are on the windows.(Many even uprooted their entire families to move to an SSPX chapel/school) The seminarians they supported have now been ordained. The chapels and schools they built now have a seat with their form worn into them. And as the heat of conciliarism was turned up, they were unaware. they became accustomed to the higher temperature. Their minds became foggy, and their muscles became weaker. They got tired of "being on their guard". They questioned the change to the 1962 missals and were rebuffed; they questioned the change in the Calendars and were rebuffed; they questioned the changes in Holy Week and were rebuffed; they questioned the acceptance of  N.O. presbyters and were rebuffed; they questioned the placement of the popes(sic) picture next to the Archbishop's in their church , and they were rebuffed. Pretty soon they stopped questioning.
   Their grandchildren are now in the SSPX schools: you can't question the administration when the kids are in the schools. You've now given the criminals a huge tool with which to control you (The Novus Ordo learned this in the 70's!).
    Then again, many are in their twilight years. The normal things take over. Sickness sets in, thoughts suddenly change to the final days. The priest before the pews today, may be called upon tomorrow for the sacraments. How many are keen on being in the midst of a doctrinal disagreement with the priest they may call upon for a family member tomorrow?
    So, the resistance is left floundering . Only Fr. Girouard, as far as we see, has thought it all out and is maintaining  a Catholic parish life for the faithful. Maybe its the same in South America. In general,however, the faithful are left on their own.
    And the resistance insists: Francis is our pope; Benedict was our pope; we can't work with those who question how a heretic could be pope. They also don't understand the Archbishop. Of Ratzinger: "He is not Catholic!" To Ratzinger: "We cannot work with you--you are for the destruction of Christianity!" What a  terrible indictment!! The resistance  doesn't understand what the Archbishop said:
" No! No!-- These are not just words! We don't just beat our fists in the air!"  The resistance does not understand what the Archbishop meant when he said, before the last Assisi: 'We may be coming to a point where we have to say he is not pope.'
    But they want to keep the "mantra" of SSPX on their shoulders. It still feels good. They 'like it.' But they also want to get back into this perverted Rome. maybe slower, maybe with different terms, maybe with greater protection-- but they want to get back in. Fundamentally, they have not yet - and they may never- realize that ROME HAS LOST THE FAITH-- just as Our Lady said it would !
   So-- why waste time trying to analyze why more people don't join the "resistance" when we still agree with the overall objective of getting back into this  Rome? It would be better time spent building Catholicism, parish by parish-- and let the SSPX dissolve into the cesspool into which is lusts after.
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: Frances on March 09, 2014, 07:50:33 PM
Quote from: hugeman
It has little to do with fifty-ism...For most of the bamboozled in Ridgefield, New Jersey, Hartford, NYC, Long Island, Philadelphia-- they were not around in the fifty's....

 :dancing-banana:They were born in the late 40s, early 50s, therefore came of age at the cusp of Vatican II.  Most people form an attachment to the customs of their formative years.  The cultural disintegration of the 60s and 70s threatened a minority of the so-called 'Baby-boomers.' In setting up the Church, as they remembered Her, they established a cozy time-warp.  But it was based more on sentiment than doctrine.  It would account for their children NOT keeping the Faith, for they never really had it in the first place!  The adult children of these, so far as I can see, have largely lost the Faith, if they ever had it at all!  There is a 'missing generation' of traditional Catholics in many sspx chapels.  The young adults are not grandchildren, but newcomers from the novus ordo.  They aren't there for doctrine, either.  This is obvious when the teenage girls are seen wiggling out of the skirts theyve worn over their skinny jeans and leggings in the parking lot after Mass. They are largely traditional Catholics for an hour or two on Sunday morning.  The rest of the time, they're indistinguishable from the world.  
Quote from: hugeman
Only Fr. Girouard, as far as we see, has thought it all out and is maintaining  a Catholic parish life...

  :dancing-banana:Should each "Resistance" priest establish his own small parish?  Maybe.  But what of those who will be entirely abandoned? That means all those faithful who now have at least an occasional visit from a priest will have no priest at all.  Is this not the needless abandonment of souls?  Not to detract from Fr. Girouard, but what the travelling priests do is essential.  (IMO)
Quote from: hugeman
The resistance does not understand what the Archbishop meant when he said, before the last Assisi: 'We may be coming to a point where we have to say he is not pope.'

 :dancing-banana:Agree to a point.  Pope or not, he occupies the Chair, and will be judged accordingly.

What is without question is that we sheep have been abandoned.  What, then, shall we do, other than give up and offer ourselves to the wolves?  
What choice have we but to cling to the Faith as best we can, even though it necessitates a return to the times in which, "there was no king in Israel, and every one did that which seemed right in his own eyes.?" (Judges 21:24)
Comments?
Suggestions?


Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: John Grace on March 10, 2014, 08:10:50 AM
Recommended reading for certain.

'Faith and Fear in the Struggle for a Catholic Society'

It contains the essay 'Why Catholics Are Cowards'?
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: John Grace on March 10, 2014, 08:13:07 AM
A recommended introduction to Catholic Social Action is

'Catholic Action' - Liam Connolly


Quote
It has been three decades since a new, simple, yet inspirational work has been written and published on the subject of the social teaching of the Catholic Church. Praised by orthodox bishops and priests for its clarity and purpose, it is recommended to all Catholics and Christians who wish to Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's.

It acts as a handy guide to the theory and practise of Catholic Social Action.
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: soulguard on March 10, 2014, 08:20:16 AM
Excellent post by hugemaan
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: hugeman on March 10, 2014, 08:39:56 AM
John,

Neither Liam's book not the Catholic position Paper links appear to work from the post. Just so you know.
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: hugeman on March 10, 2014, 08:51:18 AM
Quote from: hugeman
John,

Neither Liam's book not the Catholic position Paper links appear to work from the post. Just so you know.


UPDATE:

You can find excerpts of the Catholic Action Book here  on Cathinfo/Traditional Catholic Faith/The Library/Catholic Action. I don't know how much is posted there-- it looks to be three or four sections of the book.

 The other (Catholic Position Paper) doesn't appear to show up in Google.
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: AJNC on March 11, 2014, 11:00:41 AM
I was a young boy in the fifties. I cannot quite grasp what Bp Williamson is saying.There were certain things we just had to do in those days. Young boys had to become altar servers and join the Legion of Mary. We had to attend Benediction every Sunday evening. The radio had to be turned off during Lent and no brightly colored clothing was used during this season. Many people did NOT like these things and wanted a way out. I myself lapsed from the Faith from 1970 to 1976. I remember my mother and the other Catholic housewives talking on the election of John XXIII to the Papacy. How what a refreshing change he was to the " strict and stern" Pius XII. So many millions quit the Church after Vatican II. They hated the "Fifties Catholicism".

Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: stgobnait on March 11, 2014, 11:18:39 AM
a reflection of our fallen nature, we are not angels. i too remember the tediousness of being called from play to attend church,the bleakness of the lenten season, and even the 'relief' of not having to search for a mantilla to go to Mass. but now, older, and a little wiser, i can see where the restrictions were necessary, to bring me to my knees, because God did not create me as an angel, fifties catholicism, is what brought me to the place i am today, and still far from being an angel.
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: Frances on March 11, 2014, 11:19:41 AM
Quote from: AJNC
I was a young boy in the fifties. I cannot quite grasp what Bp Williamson is saying.There were certain things we just had to do in those days. Young boys had to become altar servers and join the Legion of Mary. We had to attend Benediction every Sunday evening. The radio had to be turned off during Lent and no brightly colored clothing was used during this season. Many people did NOT like these things and wanted a way out. I myself lapsed from the Faith from 1970 to 1976. I remember my mother and the other Catholic housewives talking on the election of John XXIII to the Papacy. How what a refreshing change he was to the " strict and stern" Pius XII. So many millions quit the Church after Vatican II. They hated the "Fifties Catholicism".


Perhaps you hated it, but many people loved it for its stability and sentimentality.  Maybe it depended upon where you were raised?
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: Neil Obstat on March 11, 2014, 02:44:53 PM
Quote from: AJNC
I was a young boy in the fifties. I cannot quite grasp what Bp Williamson is saying.


Just reading this one EC alone doesn't give you all the background, but if you had been reading previous ECs and listening to his sermons and conferences over the past 10 years, you'd understand better.

Quote
There were certain things we just had to do in those days. Young boys had to become altar servers and join the Legion of Mary. We had to attend Benediction every Sunday evening. The radio had to be turned off during Lent and no brightly colored clothing was used during this season.


The examples you give refer to superficial practices that grew out of the Faith, but are not inherent to the Faith.  Different Catholics over the centuries have had many different specific practices.  What's important is not the trappings but the doctrine.  And +W has said time and again, we have lost the sense of how important doctrine is.  

That is the key to this:  the untouchable importance of doctrine!

Quote
Many people did NOT like these things and wanted a way out. I myself lapsed from the Faith from 1970 to 1976. I remember my mother and the other Catholic housewives talking on the election of John XXIII to the Papacy. How what a refreshing change he was to the " strict and stern" Pius XII. So many millions quit the Church after Vatican II. They hated the "Fifties Catholicism".



I was blessed to have a mother who saw through the worldliness of such talk about how "wonderful" John XXIII was.  She could see there was something very sinister afoot, and there was a grave danger for the future of the Church.  Any pope who would dare set aside his power to condemn error, and presume that the "medicine of mercy" (mercy is not medicine!) would take its place, was stepping into a world that can be described as many things, but "Catholic" is not among them!  

.
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: Neil Obstat on March 11, 2014, 03:56:59 PM
Quote from: stgobnait
a reflection of our fallen nature, we are not angels. i too remember the tediousness of being called from play to attend church,the bleakness of the lenten season, and even the 'relief' of not having to search for a mantilla to go to Mass. but now, older, and a little wiser, i can see where the restrictions were necessary, to bring me to my knees, because God did not create me as an angel, fifties catholicism, is what brought me to the place i am today, and still far from being an angel.


It's interesting you would mention mantilla.

The practice of women covering their heads may be construed as a trapping, or prudential, or usage, or circuмstantial -- that is, not essential, or arbitrary, and subject to change.  But I don't think that's accurate.  

The practice of women covering their hair (ALL of it, not just a tiny spot on top or down to the ears or to the shoulders, while the bulk of loose hair hangs out below) goes back to the very dawn of the Church, and was a most "religious" practice before that time, into the mists of antiquity.  We can be pretty sure that the women emerging from Noah's Ark covered ALL their hair, but we might suppose that those who drowned in the Flood did not cover themselves in many cases.  Nor did the women of Sodom and Gomorrah, for example (one might expect).  That is, women flaunting their hair in the face of men in church is an aspect of cultural PERVERSION, not of societal fidelity to God's will.  

Have you ever seen an image of Our Lady with her hair exposed?  The only one I know of is Mahony Square Garden in Los Angeles (aka Taj Mahony, aka The Pink Palace).

It seems to me that mantilla use is a lot more important than many realize.  

There is an Armenian Orthodox parish in town where a friend of mine invited me to attend some years ago, where I was shown something most educational.  Their longstanding tradition is for women to cover their heads in church, and you can quickly see who the hold-outs are because they wrap their heads up a lot like Moslem women do, with ears, neck and hairline over their foreheads concealed and only their faces exposed.  

Other more "Americanized" ladies use free-flowing mantillas, often somewhat diaphanous lace.  Maybe we have forgotten, but only 100 years ago even in the Roman Church, see-through lace mantillas were considered indecent, and far too reminiscent of how a streetwalker dresses to attract attention.  Those were days when the thoughts that roam about in the mind of man were recognized for the prowling lions they are, seeking whom they might devour.

But as of 15 years ago, there were Freemasons posted in this Armenian Orthodox church, as ushers.  These men were absolutely known to be Freemasons, and my friend proved it to me, so it's not questionable.  Don't be surprised if petwerp chimes in trying to contradict that.  These ushers (Freemasons) would stand in the aisles passing out mantillas to the ladies in line to receive Communion, and other Freemason ushers dutifully stood in the aisles where the same ladies would later REMOVE the mantilla in PLAIN VIEW at the front of the pews (upstaging the altar!) after having received Communion, as they walked back to their place in the pews.  One detail is missing.  Can you imagine what it was?  I'll explain it later.

The purpose of these ushers (Freemasons, every one of them) was to provide a display of women disrobing in front of everyone, and to also mock the silliness of women who still clung to the ancient custom of covering their heads, because the whole point is that only during the reception of the Sacrament is it of any use to cover one's head, and this is only because of a silly, old, dusty practice that nobody really understands anyway, and besides, protestants don't do this, so what's the big deal?  They did not speak this way openly, but in private they would crack jokes outside of the liturgical setting -- jokes they likely were informed about by other Freemasons.

The missing detail is as follows.  Years previously, the Freemasons stood at the entrance to the church and handed veils to women as they walked in the door.  But they were few because most women at the time already had veils on as they came into the church.  The same Freemasons would stand at the exits after Divine Liturgy, dutifully collecting the veils, perhaps getting their "service hours in."  Then later, the Freemasons gradually abandoned the entrance doors at the beginning of the Liturgy and moved into the aisles, proffering veils to women there, as they would approach their pew, but after having already walked from the door entrance to the pew without head covering.  This was a subtle promotion of the practice of not bothering to bring your own veil, or during the week of bothering to keep track of where you had put it.  Then later, the Freemasons waited until the Sermon was about to begin before they passed out the veils, and did a second 'wave' of distribution during the Offertory, and while the collection was taking place.  It was only years later that they eventually abandoned these early opportunities to distribute mantillas and waited until the "last moment" (just before Communion) to pass out the veils, while women were standing in line to receive.  The last change was for the Freemasons to start collecting the veils from women who had just received Communion, as they walked back to their pews.  

Still no missing detail, but perhaps you have thought of it by now:  When a particular woman accepts a veil while she is standing in line for Communion, she can do one of two things -- she can put it on immediately, or she can wait for later.  Many put it on right away, but others started delaying until they were say 20 steps from the altar, then 10 steps, then two or three steps.  Eventually, there were women putting on a veil within SECONDS of receiving their Communion, and then immediately after reception of the Sacrament, they would whisk that veil off their heads before having so much as turned to walk away, and then the dutiful Freemason would be standing there to bow and scrape in their general direction, to impart a feeling of appreciation that they had done the "right thing."  

The Freemasons were there, quietly promoting the corruption of the custom of wearing mantillas in church, and they did it by providing mantillas.  The "missing detail" is that the Freemasons actively promoted the wearing of a veil for only the BARE MINIMUM of time, that is, while the woman is receiving Communion.  

This whole approach IGNORES the fact that men are distracted by seeing women's hair exposed in church, and they are ESPECIALLY distracted by seeing women putting veils ON and TAKING THEM OFF.  The latter, you may well imagine, is the cause of many mortal sins in the hearts of men who see a nonstop parade of women "taking it off."


.
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: holysoulsacademy on March 11, 2014, 11:51:00 PM
The Fiftiesm that goes around among the so-called traditional parishes is a romanticized version of the fifties, kinda like the Hollywood fifties.
Interestingly, at least from the insight of a woman, the women in these parishes, especially those who uproot themselves and move in right next door to these parishes, end up being brainwashed.
I have observed many women who do not quite grow into the role of motherhood and have a warped sense of brain drain where they cannot think for themselves beyond "what the priest says".  

The priest cannot possibly be infallible!

And the poor husbands!
If they cannot make enough money to sustain the suburban middle-class baby boomer lifestyle that these women envision themselves as living - they are sent to Fr. for chastisement!
A wife is supposed to take her husbands earnings and budget household and childcare expenses to the level of her husbands earnings.
Not, conjure a lifestyle, and make the husband work anywhere - even if it could be detrimental to his soul - just to support this lifestyle these women conjure up.
How many times I see them treat their husbands like second rate citizens - no respect at all!  
Especially if he cannot sustain the outlandish and impractical lifestyle they imagine that they have to have.
They are feminists underneath their mantillas!
They just happen to have a lot of children and attend the TLM!
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: awkwardcustomer on March 12, 2014, 05:49:24 AM
Neil Obstat asks -

"Have you ever seen an image of Our Lady with her hair exposed?"

Well, yes I have.

Medieval Books of Hours frequently show images of Our Lady with her hair exposed.

http://www.art.co.uk/products/p22114188448-sa-i7646541/master-of-the-aix-annunciation-the-virgin-mary-reading-from-a-book-of-hours-c-1445-detail.htm?isPLAItem=true&plaSearchText=virgin%20mary%20books%20of%20hours

If this link doesn't work, then a glance through any collection of images from Medieval illuminated manuscripts will show that Our Lady is quite often shown without her head covered.

 
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: Frances on March 12, 2014, 12:40:28 PM
 :dancing-banana:
Whether the cause be "Fiftiesism" or something else,
Quote from: Frances

What is without question is that we sheep have been abandoned.  What, then, shall we do, other than give up and offer ourselves to the wolves?  
What choice have we but to cling to the Faith as best we can, even though it necessitates a return to the times in which, "there was no king in Israel, and every one did that which seemed right in his own eyes.?" (Judges 21:24)
Comments?
Suggestions?


What next?  So far, nobody has answered.
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: Frances on March 14, 2014, 07:39:56 PM
Quote from: Frances
:dancing-banana:
Whether the cause be "Fiftiesism" or something else,
Quote from: Frances

What is without question is that we sheep have been abandoned.  What, then, shall we do, other than give up and offer ourselves to the wolves?  
What choice have we but to cling to the Faith as best we can, even though it necessitates a return to the times in which, "there was no king in Israel, and every one did that which seemed right in his own eyes.?" (Judges 21:24)
Comments?
Suggestions?


What next?  So far, nobody has answered.


Any takers?
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: Frances on March 31, 2014, 01:56:00 PM
NOW HAPPENING AT YOUR LOCAL PRIORY?

Quote from: Miseremini
Number CCCXLVII (347)   8th March 2014

FIFTIESISM OBSERVED
... it will be easy for Rome to wipe out the last fortress of Tradition! The SSPX chapels need only to be handed over to the jurisdiction of the local bishop by formal agreement, or by de facto cooperation with Novus Ordo priests, which we have seen locally.”

Notice her evocation of the possibility of Rome absorbing the SSPX no longer by any clear-cut agreement, but by a gradual merger. It is a real danger. I wonder if that is not what SSPX HQ is being advised to do by its “new friends” in Rome.


They got it switched around in 2012.  Implement the changes, THEN sign the deal?
Has anyone noticed anything?
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: Matto on March 31, 2014, 02:24:56 PM
Quote from: holysoulsacademy

They are feminists underneath their mantillas!
They just happen to have a lot of children and attend the TLM!


I don't have enough experience in traditional Catholicism to know how often what you describe happens. "They are feminists underneath their mantillas!" sounds like something Telesphorus would say.
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: Frances on March 31, 2014, 02:58:09 PM
l
Quote from: Frances
NOW HAPPENING AT YOUR LOCAL PRIORY?

Quote from: Miseremini
Number CCCXLVII (347)   8th March 2014

FIFTIESISM OBSERVED
... it will be easy for Rome to wipe out the last fortress of Tradition! The SSPX chapels need only to be handed over to the jurisdiction of the local bishop by formal agreement, or by de facto cooperation with Novus Ordo priests, which we have seen locally.”

Notice her evocation of the possibility of Rome absorbing the SSPX no longer by any clear-cut agreement, but by a gradual merger. It is a real danger. I wonder if that is not what SSPX HQ is being advised to do by its “new friends” in Rome.


They got it switched around in 2012.  Implement the changes, THEN sign the deal?
Has anyone noticed anything?
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: hugeman on April 01, 2014, 09:56:42 AM
Don't know WHY you would ask has anyone noticed anything? It's just us dumb sheep here,
kneeling in the pews, being lied to over and over again-- getting dumber and dumber.  "Oh, how
Wonderful!", we exclaim as Fr. Goldady announced that an( ahem) "Monsignor" from the New York Archdiocese will be " in Residence" at St. Ignatius Retreat House in Ridgefield. "Whoopee!"'we all e claim! " See? We TOLD you there's no agreement! Who needs a stinkin' agreement??"  We'll just let these pres-by-ters move in wholesale!

Of COURSE, Fr. Goldady said" he will have no mission here."
WHAT??? Another priest without a mission?? Cardinal Mueller , archbishop DeNoia and all of Rome says NONE of the SSPX priests have a mission!! Is this another one of Fellay's
Verbal twists of the to tongue? "Let's just say he has no mission since we have no jurisdiction or power to incardinate him into the SSPX---and then we won't step on "Cardinal" Dolan's
Delicate little toes!"

Well, mr no mission 'mondignor' Burns' first meeting was with the ladies of the chapel. ( sorry , ladies, but somebody has to be the canary-- you really aren't any more gullible than the
Men folk!). 'Msgr' Burns announced he became a pres-by-ter in 1986
by 'cardinal' O'Connor. He used the word 'ordained', but , of course, everybody knows the Conciliar church no longer ordains men. The archbishop included their 'ordination' rite of 1969 as one of the "bastard" rites of their new religion.
    'Msgr' Burns (I believe that's his name) stated that Fr. Rostand has decreed that "I am a priest, and perfectly valid, so will not be conditionally re-ordained!"

    Well, how-de-do!!

Father Rostand determines that pres-by-ters, never ordained Catholic priests, are
A-OK in his book, and can be let loose on the Catholic faithful-- who have been fighting for forty five years against  exactly this creeping modernism! Nineteen Eighty Six--exactly the very same year that archbishop Lefebvre lamented that, because of the heresies of  JPII, his continuing dalliance with the super religion of Assisi, and his un Catholic theology, "we may have to say he is not the pope!"  Nineteen Eighty six- some seventeen years AFTER the conciliar
Church abandoned the ordination rites, and adopted the rites of Martin Luther for its pres-by-ters-- rites which were soundly CONDEMNED by Pope Leo XIII-- these are the rites that Rostand now hangs his hat on!!!
     Do you see now why LeRoux maintained in Auriesville in 2012 that  "Our priests
Get their mission from the local ordinary?" These men are modernists! They are not Catholics! They have absolutely no connection to the Roman Catholic Church of Archbishop Lefebvre, St. PiusX, and Our Lord Jesus Christ, except they have now hijacked the SSPX!

Under the guise of tradition ( because tradition sells) they are stealing the chapels of the SSPX, and they are twisting your faith !
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: Frances on April 02, 2014, 11:24:47 PM
Quote from: hugeman
Don't know WHY you would ask has anyone noticed anything? It's just us dumb sheep here,
kneeling in the pews, being lied to over and over again-- getting dumber and dumber.  "Oh, how
Wonderful!", we exclaim as Fr. Goldady announced that an( ahem) "Monsignor" from the New York Archdiocese will be " in Residence" at St. Ignatius Retreat House in Ridgefield. "Whoopee!"'we all e claim! " See? We TOLD you there's no agreement! Who needs a stinkin' agreement??"  We'll just let these pres-by-ters move in wholesale!

Of COURSE, Fr. Goldady said" he will have no mission here."
WHAT??? Another priest without a mission?? Cardinal Mueller , archbishop DeNoia and all of Rome says NONE of the SSPX priests have a mission!! Is this another one of Fellay's
Verbal twists of the to tongue? "Let's just say he has no mission since we have no jurisdiction or power to incardinate him into the SSPX---and then we won't step on "Cardinal" Dolan's
Delicate little toes!"

Well, mr no mission 'mondignor' Burns' first meeting was with the ladies of the chapel. ( sorry , ladies, but somebody has to be the canary-- you really aren't any more gullible than the
Men folk!). 'Msgr' Burns announced he became a pres-by-ter in 1986
by 'cardinal' O'Connor. He used the word 'ordained', but , of course, everybody knows the Conciliar church no longer ordains men. The archbishop included their 'ordination' rite of 1969 as one of the "bastard" rites of their new religion.
    'Msgr' Burns (I believe that's his name) stated that Fr. Rostand has decreed that "I am a priest, and perfectly valid, so will not be conditionally re-ordained!"

    Well, how-de-do!!

Father Rostand determines that pres-by-ters, never ordained Catholic priests, are
A-OK in his book, and can be let loose on the Catholic faithful-- who have been fighting for forty five years against  exactly this creeping modernism! Nineteen Eighty Six--exactly the very same year that archbishop Lefebvre lamented that, because of the heresies of  JPII, his continuing dalliance with the super religion of Assisi, and his un Catholic theology, "we may have to say he is not the pope!"  Nineteen Eighty six- some seventeen years AFTER the conciliar
Church abandoned the ordination rites, and adopted the rites of Martin Luther for its pres-by-ters-- rites which were soundly CONDEMNED by Pope Leo XIII-- these are the rites that Rostand now hangs his hat on!!!
     Do you see now why LeRoux maintained in Auriesville in 2012 that  "Our priests
Get their mission from the local ordinary?" These men are modernists! They are not Catholics! They have absolutely no connection to the Roman Catholic Church of Archbishop Lefebvre, St. PiusX, and Our Lord Jesus Christ, except they have now hijacked the SSPX!

Under the guise of tradition ( because tradition sells) they are stealing the chapels of the SSPX, and they are twisting your faith !
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 01, 2014, 07:46:12 PM
Quote from: hugeman
Don't know WHY you would ask has anyone noticed anything? It's just us dumb sheep here,
kneeling in the pews, being lied to over and over again-- getting dumber and dumber.  "Oh, how
Wonderful!", we exclaim as Fr. Goldady announced that an( ahem) "Monsignor" from the New York Archdiocese will be " in Residence" at St. Ignatius Retreat House in Ridgefield. "Whoopee!"'we all e claim! " See? We TOLD you there's no agreement! Who needs a stinkin' agreement??"  We'll just let these pres-by-ters move in wholesale!

Of COURSE, Fr. Goldady said" he will have no mission here."
WHAT??? Another priest without a mission?? Cardinal Mueller , archbishop DeNoia and all of Rome says NONE of the SSPX priests have a mission!! Is this another one of Fellay's
Verbal twists of the to tongue? "Let's just say he has no mission since we have no jurisdiction or power to incardinate him into the SSPX---and then we won't step on "Cardinal" Dolan's
Delicate little toes!"

Well, mr no mission 'mondignor' Burns' first meeting was with the ladies of the chapel. ( sorry , ladies, but somebody has to be the canary-- you really aren't any more gullible than the
Men folk!). 'Msgr' Burns announced he became a pres-by-ter in 1986
by 'cardinal' O'Connor. He used the word 'ordained', but , of course, everybody knows the Conciliar church no longer ordains men. The archbishop included their 'ordination' rite of 1969 as one of the "bastard" rites of their new religion.
    'Msgr' Burns (I believe that's his name) stated that Fr. Rostand has decreed that "I am a priest, and perfectly valid, so will not be conditionally re-ordained!"

    Well, how-de-do!!

Father Rostand determines that pres-by-ters, never ordained Catholic priests, are
A-OK in his book, and can be let loose on the Catholic faithful-- who have been fighting for forty five years against  exactly this creeping modernism! Nineteen Eighty Six--exactly the very same year that archbishop Lefebvre lamented that, because of the heresies of  JPII, his continuing dalliance with the super religion of Assisi, and his un Catholic theology, "we may have to say he is not the pope!"  Nineteen Eighty six- some seventeen years AFTER the conciliar
Church abandoned the ordination rites, and adopted the rites of Martin Luther for its pres-by-ters-- rites which were soundly CONDEMNED by Pope Leo XIII-- these are the rites that Rostand now hangs his hat on!!!
     Do you see now why LeRoux maintained in Auriesville in 2012 that  "Our priests
Get their mission from the local ordinary?" These men are modernists! They are not Catholics! They have absolutely no connection to the Roman Catholic Church of Archbishop Lefebvre, St. PiusX, and Our Lord Jesus Christ, except they have now hijacked the SSPX!

Under the guise of tradition ( because tradition sells) they are stealing the chapels of the SSPX, and they are twisting your faith !



If hugeman was in this state of mind on April second, no wonder he was so quiet by the time "Divine Mercy Sunday" rolled around.  


.
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: Viva Cristo Rey on July 27, 2014, 07:23:04 PM
The 4 Marks of The Church is one, holy Catholic Apostolic
Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: Viva Cristo Rey on July 27, 2014, 07:25:02 PM
Some of you may know the faith but you don't live the faith.

Title: ELEISON COMMENTS (347) 8th March 2014 A.D.
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 28, 2014, 03:27:51 AM
Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey

The 4 Marks of The Church [are] one, holy Catholic Apostolic[.]

Some of you may know the faith but you don't live the faith.



.......... And your point is ... ?