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Author Topic: E. Michael Jones interviews Bp. Williamson  (Read 6242 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: E. Michael Jones interviews Bp. Williamson
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2022, 06:11:51 PM »
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  • It is very interesting what Msgr. Williamson says regarding the ambiguity in the new rite of episcopal consecration (at 1:16:24 - 1:18:01), and the sedevacantist accusation of invalidity.

    He notes the principle significatio ex adjunctis (or as Msgr. Williamson states it, determinatio ex adjunctis), which basically says in sacramental theology "an ambiguity is settled by immediate context."  Meaning, it is conceded that "spiritus principalem" is ambiguous.  Nevertheless, the immediate context removes the ambiguity where the word bishop (episcopus) closely follows.  The conclusion therefore, is that, as the ambiguity does not survive, the form is valid.

    Explaining this principle, he cites Michael Davies' book The Order of Melchisedech, which in turn cites Fr. Francis Clark in Appendix I:

    "The sacramental signification of an ordination rite is not necessarily limited to one phrase or formula, but can be clearly conveyed from many parts of the rite.  These other parts could thus contribute, either individually or in combination, to determining the sacramental meaning of the operative formula in an unambiguous sense.  Thus the wording of an ordination form, even if not specifically determinate in itself, can be given the required determination from its setting (ex adjunctis) that is, from the other prayers and actions of the rite, or even from the connotation of the ceremony as a whole in the religious context of the age." 
    -The Catholic Church and Anglican Orders, F. Clark, S.J.  (CTS, 1962), p.21.

    Yes, I thought that was interesting as well. I don't recall ever having heard of ambiguity being settled by context, but it makes some sense.

    However, I don't understand how this relates to the subject of Anglican orders. Perhaps you can explain? 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: E. Michael Jones interviews Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #16 on: August 09, 2022, 06:29:48 PM »
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  • Yes, I thought that was interesting as well. I don't recall ever having heard of ambiguity being settled by context, but it makes some sense.

    However, I don't understand how this relates to the subject of Anglican orders. Perhaps you can explain?

    Apologies if sometimes I am not clear.

    Msgr. Williamson referenced a Michael Davies book in which the latter noted the new rite of ordination seemed to be a step towards a common Ordinal with the Anglican church, but which was nevertheless still valid because of the principle previously mentioned.  That book in turn extracted quotes in support of its thesis from l'Abbe Clark's book on the invalidity of Anglican orders.

    So the point of the principle is that so long as there is ambiguity, the context can serve to validate or invalidate the rite.

    Pope Leo XIII said context invalidated Anglican orders, but the same principle can serve to validate the new rite of consecration.

    Certainment, this principle is inapplicable in sacraments where God himself has given us the form (baptême, Eucharistie), but can apply in the others.

    Noblesse oblige.


    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: E. Michael Jones interviews Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #17 on: August 09, 2022, 06:36:26 PM »
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  • Yes, I thought that was interesting as well. I don't recall ever having heard of ambiguity being settled by context, but it makes some sense.

    However, I don't understand how this relates to the subject of Anglican orders. Perhaps you can explain?
    Re:
    Quote
    "The sacramental signification of an ordination rite is not necessarily limited to one phrase or formula, but can be clearly conveyed from many parts of the rite.  These other parts could thus contribute, either individually or in combination, to determining the sacramental meaning of the operative formula in an unambiguous sense.  Thus the wording of an ordination form, even if not specifically determinate in itself, can be given the required determination from its setting (ex adjunctis) that is, from the other prayers and actions of the rite, or even from the connotation of the ceremony as a whole in the religious context of the age." 
    -The Catholic Church and Anglican Orders, F. Clark, S.J.  (CTS, 1962), p.21.

    Ordination being a Sacrament, I would suppose the precise wording  is necessary. In Baptism,  the recitation of the precise words are necessary for validity. Context would hold no weight if the words were not correct, so I don't get what this guy is saying either.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: E. Michael Jones interviews Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #18 on: August 10, 2022, 07:50:51 AM »
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  • Apologies if sometimes I am not clear.

    Msgr. Williamson referenced a Michael Davies book in which the latter noted the new rite of ordination seemed to be a step towards a common Ordinal with the Anglican church, but which was nevertheless still valid because of the principle previously mentioned.  That book in turn extracted quotes in support of its thesis from l'Abbe Clark's book on the invalidity of Anglican orders.

    So the point of the principle is that so long as there is ambiguity, the context can serve to validate or invalidate the rite.

    Pope Leo XIII said context invalidated Anglican orders, but the same principle can serve to validate the new rite of consecration.

    Certainment, this principle is inapplicable in sacraments where God himself has given us the form (baptême, Eucharistie), but can apply in the others.

    I thought that there were other reasons for the invalidity of Anglican orders, but can't recall them just now. I doubt that +W himself would make a case for the validity of Anglican orders, or that he meant to do so at all, if that's what you're getting at. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: E. Michael Jones interviews Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #19 on: August 10, 2022, 10:21:49 AM »
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  • I thought that there were other reasons for the invalidity of Anglican orders, but can't recall them just now. I doubt that +W himself would make a case for the validity of Anglican orders, or that he meant to do so at all, if that's what you're getting at.

    Dear Mme-

    I apologize again, but I am saying exactly the opposite.

    Leo XIII lists defects in both form and intention as causes invalidating Anglican orders.  He lists several arguments for this (both extrinsic and intrinsic), one of which is context (see Apostolicae Curae #30 particularly, but 30-33 generally).

    Msgr. Williamson cites this use of Leo XIII in the interview to draw attention to the existence and legitimacy of the principle previously mentioned, and then uses it himself with regard to affirming the validity of the new rite of episcopal coronation (not Anglican orders).

    He also cites Michael Davies' book, which in turn quoted Fr. Clark's passage previously provided.

    I am not saying Msgr. Williamson is right on this matter episcopal coronations, but only that his argument is well founded and logically consistent.

    Nobody is accusing Msgr. Williamson of defending the validity of Anglican orders.

    Noblesse oblige.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: E. Michael Jones interviews Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #20 on: August 10, 2022, 05:00:43 PM »
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  • Dear Mme-

    I apologize again, but I am saying exactly the opposite.

    Leo XIII lists defects in both form and intention as causes invalidating Anglican orders.  He lists several arguments for this (both extrinsic and intrinsic), one of which is context (see Apostolicae Curae #30 particularly, but 30-33 generally).

    Msgr. Williamson cites this use of Leo XIII in the interview to draw attention to the existence and legitimacy of the principle previously mentioned, and then uses it himself with regard to affirming the validity of the new rite of episcopal coronation (not Anglican orders).

    He also cites Michael Davies' book, which in turn quoted Fr. Clark's passage previously provided.

    I am not saying Msgr. Williamson is right on this matter episcopal coronations, but only that his argument is well founded and logically consistent.

    Nobody is accusing Msgr. Williamson of defending the validity of Anglican orders.

    I hope that you understand my confusion in this matter, since the subject of Anglican orders does not come into the subject matter at all, regarding the content of the video featuring Bp. Williamson. Therefore, I assume that Fr. Clark's view of the matter was not impressed upon Bp. Williamson's view.

    Also, I don't believe that Bp. Williamson has a firm opinion on the matter of the new rite of ordinations. He offers some insight (and as you say, he's logically consistent) on the matter, but doesn't he require anyone to accept it.

    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: E. Michael Jones interviews Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #21 on: August 10, 2022, 05:25:01 PM »
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  • I hope that you understand my confusion in this matter, since the subject of Anglican orders does not come into the subject matter at all, regarding the content of the video featuring Bp. Williamson. Therefore, I assume that Fr. Clark's view of the matter was not impressed upon Bp. Williamson's view.

    I am sorry madame, but Msgr. Williamson broaches the matter indirectly, when he references M. Davies' book on Anglican orders, noting it discusses in that context the principle previously mentioned.

    See beginning at 1:17:00.
    Noblesse oblige.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: E. Michael Jones interviews Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #22 on: August 10, 2022, 07:25:11 PM »
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  • Nah, the NO Rites of Consecration and Ordination have defective form, and so this notion of ambiguity does not apply.


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: E. Michael Jones interviews Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #23 on: August 10, 2022, 09:48:06 PM »
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  • It is very interesting what Msgr. Williamson says regarding the ambiguity in the new rite of episcopal consecration (at 1:16:24 - 1:18:01), and the sedevacantist accusation of invalidity.

    He notes the principle significatio ex adjunctis (or as Msgr. Williamson states it, determinatio ex adjunctis), which basically says in sacramental theology "an ambiguity is settled by immediate context."  Meaning, it is conceded that "spiritus principalem" is ambiguous.  Nevertheless, the immediate context removes the ambiguity where the word bishop (episcopus) closely follows.  The conclusion therefore, is that, as the ambiguity does not survive, the form is valid.

    Explaining this principle, he cites Michael Davies' book The Order of Melchisedech, which in turn cites Fr. Francis Clark in Appendix I:

    "The sacramental signification of an ordination rite is not necessarily limited to one phrase or formula, but can be clearly conveyed from many parts of the rite.  These other parts could thus contribute, either individually or in combination, to determining the sacramental meaning of the operative formula in an unambiguous sense.  Thus the wording of an ordination form, even if not specifically determinate in itself, can be given the required determination from its setting (ex adjunctis) that is, from the other prayers and actions of the rite, or even from the connotation of the ceremony as a whole in the religious context of the age." 
    -The Catholic Church and Anglican Orders, F. Clark, S.J.  (CTS, 1962), p.21.

    How does one validate a desacralized liturgy?

    According to Chiesa Viva's analysis of Bugnini's masonic correspondence to his co-conspirators, the Novus ordo missae's Offertory contains a verse from the Kabbalah.  The purpose was to desacralize the mass.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: E. Michael Jones interviews Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #24 on: August 10, 2022, 10:15:37 PM »
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  • …He also cites Michael Davies' book…
    I understand that Davies' opinion changed from "invalid" in his first edition of Order of Melchisedech to "valid" in his second edition.  When I read that I searched for the first edition. I purchased one that was marketed as a first edition, but it was the second edition. For a time I continued looking unsuccessfully for a first edition in order to make the comparison, but I never found one and so gave up the search.

    I infer that Bp. Williamson is relying on the second edition.

    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: E. Michael Jones interviews Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #25 on: August 10, 2022, 11:19:48 PM »
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  • Nah, the NO Rites of Consecration and Ordination have defective form, and so this notion of ambiguity does not apply.

    Ambiguity is the defect, and precisely why the ex adiunctis argument arises.  Were this not the case, ex adiunctis arguments would not be relevent.
    Noblesse oblige.


    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: E. Michael Jones interviews Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #26 on: August 10, 2022, 11:24:00 PM »
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  • I understand that Davies' opinion changed from "invalid" in his first edition of Order of Melchisedech to "valid" in his second edition.  When I read that I searched for the first edition. I purchased one that was marketed as a first edition, but it was the second edition. For a time I continued looking unsuccessfully for a first edition in order to make the comparison, but I never found one and so gave up the search.

    I infer that Bp. Williamson is relying on the second edition.

    There are indeed two editions (1979 and 1993), and I am in possession of both.

    Both editions contain this statement in the foreword from l'Abbe Jan van der Ploeg, O.P.: "There can be no doubt of the validity of the New Rite but there are certain features which the author deplores."

    Therefore the explanation regarding Msgr. Williamson does not hold.
    Noblesse oblige.

    Offline Donachie

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    Re: E. Michael Jones interviews Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #27 on: August 10, 2022, 11:25:18 PM »
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  • Bp. Williamson says the significant form, it's practically the same, just one or two sentences, often just one sentence, in this case it may be two sentences, one or two sentences ... and then an et instead of an ut, and he considers that the Novus Ordo ordination form in Latin is stronger than the old form?

    I was surprised at that. He must know his texts ex adiunctis. I haven't looked at those ones. I would have guessed that the new form of ordination was more obviously off in some way.



    Offline Donachie

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    Re: E. Michael Jones interviews Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #28 on: August 11, 2022, 12:19:47 AM »
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  • Heu, audite quid, one could say in a way that it's perhaps stronger because of Latin.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: E. Michael Jones interviews Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #29 on: August 11, 2022, 08:27:57 AM »
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  • How does one validate a desacralized liturgy?

    According to Chiesa Viva's analysis of Bugnini's masonic correspondence to his co-conspirators, the Novus ordo missae's Offertory contains a verse from the Kabbalah.  The purpose was to desacralize the mass.


    This has actually been independently verified that the NO replacement for the Catholic Offertory is in fact a тαℓмυdic "blessing".  This is what I believe that Our Lord referred to as "words from the abyss" in the new Rite that He foretold to Julie Marie Jahenny.