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Author Topic: Dr. Lamont vs Siscoe/Salza on St. Bellarmine  (Read 4564 times)

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Offline Nishant Xavier

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Re: Dr. Lamont vs Siscoe/Salza on St. Bellarmine
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2019, 03:28:03 PM »
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  • Siscoe's and Salza's work has some merits, and moreover was endorsed by several Society Bishops and Priests prior to its publication.

    Now, let's look at the question more carefully, especially considering a certain famous text of Fr. Ballerini, of St. Robert's school,

    Step 1: The Cardinals (or at least a handful, say 10% of them) rebuke the Pontiff. The Pope rejects this first admonition of the Church

    Step 2[a]: The Bishops (or at least a handful, say 10% of them) rebuke the Pontiff. The Pope [Alternative 1] does not reject this second admonition.

    In such a case, the day is saved, the Pontiff retracts, the heresy is corrected - something like a solemn anathema of it should be instituted, or some kind of dogmatic profession of Faith, or Creedal requirement etc, in future, for the Pope - and the Church goes on.

    But otherwise, suppose,

    Step 2[ b ]: The Bishops (or at least a handful, say 10% of them) rebuke the Pontiff. The Pope [Alternative 2] rejects this second admonition also, and no longer universally accepted, at this point of time, openly and publicly declares and manifests himself as a formal heretic.

    Then, as mentioned here, the Pope would fall from the Pontificate. And the vacancy of the Apostolic Throne of St. Peter can be declared.

    "“For the person who, admonished once or twice, does not repent, but continues pertinacious in an opinion contrary to a manifest or public dogma - not being able, on account of this public pertinacity to be excused, by any means, of heresy properly so called, which requires pertinacity - this person declares himself openly a heretic. He reveals that by his own will he has turned away from the Catholic Faith and the Church, in such form that now no declaration or sentence of any one whatsoever is necessary to cut him from the body of the Church. (…) Therefore the Pontiff who after such a solemn and public warning by the Cardinals, by the Roman Clergy or even by the Synod, maintained himself hardened in heresy and openly turned himself away from the Church, would have to be avoided, according to the precept of Saint Paul. So that he might not cause damage to the rest, he would have to have his heresy and contumacy publicly proclaimed, so that all might be able to be equally on guard in relation to him. Thus, the sentence which he had pronounced against himself would be made known to all the Church, making clear that by his own will be had turned away and separated himself from the body of the Church, and that in a certain way he had abdicated the Pontificate, which no one holds or can hold if he does not belong to the Church”. (Italics added) (7)"http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/heretical.htm Note the bolded. So it is after one or two warnings, from the Cardinals, or the Roman Clergy, or from a Synod of Bishops, now no longer UA, that the Pope falls from the Chair.

    Such, at least, is the canonical process for this case. My view is, if it goes forward, itself unlikely, Alt 1 is more likely than Alt 2.

    But let's pray, wait, work and see. We know Our Lord Jesus and Our Mother Mary are in control despite everything. They will take care.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Dr. Lamont vs Siscoe/Salza on St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #16 on: October 25, 2019, 03:29:22 PM »
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  • Quote
    Now, what if it was 75% thinking Francis is just dandy, while 25% think he's a heretic?  Those 75% convene a Council and declare Francis orthodox?  But what's stopping that 75% from being wrong and perhaps even heretical themselves?
    True, it’s quite an unprecedented situation.  And your example shows the ridiculousness of many sedes who go around saying “I just know he’s not pope.”  Or “it’s just so clear to me...”.  Who cares what you think?  Who cares what I think?  It matters about as much as arguing what temperature we think it’ll be tomorrow.  It will be what it will be.  The Church will act, or she won’t.  Eventually the pope will die, so it won’t matter. 


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Dr. Lamont vs Siscoe/Salza on St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #17 on: October 25, 2019, 04:21:21 PM »
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  • You are an ecclesiavacantist conclavist (i.e., you just said there are no Catholic clergy, yet the catholic clergy must elect a pope)?

    By "clergy," then, you must refer to some independents?

    Serious question: Why then do you not accept "Pope" Michael?

    PS: Lefebvre did not believe the conciliar and Catholic churches were entirely distinct (See good article here: http://www.dominicansavrille.us/is-there-a-conciliar-church/)

    You just admitted that I said the Catholic clergy must elect a pope, yet you accuse me of being an ecclesiavacantist?  C'mon, man.

    The Catholic clergy are those men who have been accepted into the clerical state by Catholic bishops.  But Conciliar bishops are not Catholic bishops.  In order to be Catholic you have to profess the Catholic faith which Conciliar bishops most certainly do not.

    See this article for how a pope might be elected without the cardinals: https://romeward.com/articles/239749895/a-valid-papal-election-without-cardinals

    David Bawden was not elected by Catholic clergy.  And even if he was elected by Catholic clergy, he hasn't even made any pretense to actually govern the local church of Rome.  Therefore it is certain that he is not the Roman Pontiff.  But at least he is Catholic.  Which makes his claim slightly more believable than the Pachamama-worshipping sodomite in Rome.

    If the most you can say is that +Lefebvre did not believe the Conciliar and Catholic Churches were entirely distinct then it follows that he did believe they were distinct.  Can we say the same for XavierSem, Praeter and the other neo-SSPX people who recognize a heretical sodomite as the supreme authority of their Fag Mafia-led syndicate?

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Dr. Lamont vs Siscoe/Salza on St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #18 on: October 25, 2019, 05:00:29 PM »
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  • Siscoe's and Salza's work has some merits, and moreover was endorsed by several Society Bishops and Priests prior to its publication.

    Now, let's look at the question more carefully, especially considering a certain famous text of Fr. Ballerini, of St. Robert's school,

    Step 1: The Cardinals (or at least a handful, say 10% of them) rebuke the Pontiff. The Pope rejects this first admonition of the Church

    Step 2[a]: The Bishops (or at least a handful, say 10% of them) rebuke the Pontiff. The Pope [Alternative 1] does not reject this second admonition.

    In such a case, the day is saved, the Pontiff retracts, the heresy is corrected - something like a solemn anathema of it should be instituted, or some kind of dogmatic profession of Faith, or Creedal requirement etc, in future, for the Pope - and the Church goes on.

    But otherwise, suppose,

    Step 2[ b ]: The Bishops (or at least a handful, say 10% of them) rebuke the Pontiff. The Pope [Alternative 2] rejects this second admonition also, and no longer universally accepted, at this point of time, openly and publicly declares and manifests himself as a formal heretic.

    Then, as mentioned here, the Pope would fall from the Pontificate. And the vacancy of the Apostolic Throne of St. Peter can be declared.

    "“For the person who, admonished once or twice, does not repent, but continues pertinacious in an opinion contrary to a manifest or public dogma - not being able, on account of this public pertinacity to be excused, by any means, of heresy properly so called, which requires pertinacity - this person declares himself openly a heretic. He reveals that by his own will he has turned away from the Catholic Faith and the Church, in such form that now no declaration or sentence of any one whatsoever is necessary to cut him from the body of the Church. (…) Therefore the Pontiff who after such a solemn and public warning by the Cardinals, by the Roman Clergy or even by the Synod, maintained himself hardened in heresy and openly turned himself away from the Church, would have to be avoided, according to the precept of Saint Paul. So that he might not cause damage to the rest, he would have to have his heresy and contumacy publicly proclaimed, so that all might be able to be equally on guard in relation to him. Thus, the sentence which he had pronounced against himself would be made known to all the Church, making clear that by his own will be had turned away and separated himself from the body of the Church, and that in a certain way he had abdicated the Pontificate, which no one holds or can hold if he does not belong to the Church”. (Italics added) (7)"http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/heretical.htm Note the bolded. So it is after one or two warnings, from the Cardinals, or the Roman Clergy, or from a Synod of Bishops, now no longer UA, that the Pope falls from the Chair.

    Such, at least, is the canonical process for this case. My view is, if it goes forward, itself unlikely, Alt 1 is more likely than Alt 2.

    But let's pray, wait, work and see. We know Our Lord Jesus and Our Mother Mary are in control despite everything. They will take care.
    There are 224 living cardinals in the Conciliar Church.  So 10% is 22.  You have exactly ONE who has publicly rebuked Frank.  That's about .5%.  That means 99.5% are going along with Frank.  Doesn't that meet your definition of Universal Peaceful Acceptance?  By your own standard, Cardinal Burke is a heretic.  And you are a heretic for questioning the legitimacy of a universally and peacefully accepted pope.  Either that or you are hypocrite.  Which is it?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Dr. Lamont vs Siscoe/Salza on St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #19 on: October 25, 2019, 05:37:58 PM »
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  • you accuse me of being an ecclesiavacantist?  C'mon, man.

    The Catholic clergy are those men who have been accepted into the clerical state by Catholic bishops.  But Conciliar bishops are not Catholic bishops.  In order to be Catholic you have to profess the Catholic faith which Conciliar bishops most certainly do not.

    Can you give me some examples of Catholic clergy in 2019?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Dr. Lamont vs Siscoe/Salza on St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #20 on: October 25, 2019, 05:47:50 PM »
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  • Can you give me some examples of Catholic clergy in 2019?
    Many of the neo-SSPX clergy are still Catholic, the Resistance, CMRI, SSPV and other sede clergy.  If you limited the UPA theory to only those clergy who actually profess Catholic doctrine then it would quickly become apparent that there is NOT universal peaceful acceptance of any of the Conciliar popes.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Dr. Lamont vs Siscoe/Salza on St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #21 on: October 25, 2019, 05:59:06 PM »
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  • Many of the neo-SSPX clergy are still Catholic, the Resistance, CMRI, SSPV and other sede clergy.  If you limited the UPA theory to only those clergy who actually profess Catholic doctrine then it would quickly become apparent that there is NOT universal peaceful acceptance of any of the Conciliar popes.
    So I am deducing your principle, which seems to be this: The next pope must come from the election of those who have no jurisdiction or office to elect a pope?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Dr. Lamont vs Siscoe/Salza on St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #22 on: October 25, 2019, 06:22:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: Clemens Maria on Fri Oct 25 2019 16:21:21 GMT-0500 (CDT)
    You just admitted that I said the Catholic clergy must elect a pope, yet you accuse me of being an ecclesiavacantist?  C'mon, man.

    The Catholic clergy are those men who have been accepted into the clerical state by Catholic bishops.  But Conciliar bishops are not Catholic bishops.  In order to be Catholic you have to profess the Catholic faith which Conciliar bishops most certainly do not.

    See this article for how a pope might be elected without the cardinals: https://romeward.com/articles/239749895/a-valid-papal-election-without-cardinals

    David Bawden was not elected by Catholic clergy.  And even if he was elected by Catholic clergy, he hasn't even made any pretense to actually govern the local church of Rome.  Therefore it is certain that he is not the Roman Pontiff.  But at least he is Catholic.  Which makes his claim slightly more believable than the Pacha-mama-worshipping sodomite in Rome.

    If the most you can say is that +Lefebvre did not believe the Conciliar and Catholic Churches were entirely distinct then it follows that he did believe they were distinct.  Can we say the same for XavierSem, Praeter and the other neo-SSPX people who recognize a heretical sodomite as the supreme authority of their Fag Mafia-led syndicate?

    The John Daly article you cite referring to “extraordinary conclaves” lists two possible categories of papabile:

    “An imperfect general council, i.e. a council of all the world’s bishops, which however is called “imperfect” because no council is fully general in the absence of the pope and of course the absence of the pope is in this case the very reason for summoning the council. The basis of this solution is that in the absence of the pope the bishops are the highest authority in the Church.

    The Roman clergy. The basis of this solution is that the pope is pope because he is bishop of Rome. The cardinals are considered to be the chief clergy of Rome. In their absence, the remaining clergy of Rome become competent to elect their bishop, who, in virtue of being bishop of Rome, will be pope.

    But none of the bishops or clergy you mention as still comprising “Catholic clergy” meet either of these two requirements.

    Consequently, there is no possibility of the Church heirarchy recovering and reestablishing itself.

    Conclusion: The Church has defected (or equally untenable: Its constitution has substantially mutated such that we now have a perpetually non-hierarchical “church”).

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Dr. Lamont vs Siscoe/Salza on St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #23 on: October 25, 2019, 07:34:19 PM »
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  • So I am deducing your principle, which seems to be this: The next pope must come from the election of those who have no jurisdiction or office to elect a pope?
    I’m not sure there is an office or jurisdiction to elect a pope.  I wondered about that too but I’ve been told that cardinals don’t have jurisdiction to elect a pope, it is simply a function of the office.  I don’t understand it so maybe talk to someone who knows more about it than me.  But keep in mind that you don’t need to be a bishop nor do you need to have ordinary jurisdiction to elect a pope because not all cardinals who have participated in elections were bishops and not all the cardinals who were bishops were ordinaries.  And Cardinal Billot or was it another prominent 20th c theologian, I can’t remember, said that in the event that the cardinals are wiped out, the power to elect would devolve to either the Roman clergy or a general council.  And you don’t have to be an ordinary or a bishop to participate in a general council or a gathering of the local Roman clergy.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Dr. Lamont vs Siscoe/Salza on St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #24 on: October 25, 2019, 08:41:05 PM »
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  • Can you give me some examples of Catholic clergy in 2019?
    Since it appears you do not include the traditional clergy, can you give examples of Catholic clergy in 2019?

    Offline Histrionics

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    Re: Dr. Lamont vs Siscoe/Salza on St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #25 on: October 25, 2019, 11:14:48 PM »
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  • Can you give me some examples of Catholic clergy in 2019?
    Am assuming you're referring to someone with actual ordinary jurisdiction, and I completely agree this is a problem; to name the SSPX/SSPV/CMRI, etc., misses the point since none of them have it and doesn't resolve the issue. And if this has disappeared so has the Church; even if it'd then somehow be miraculously recovered, it'd still be a new institution. So who and where are these shepherds?


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Dr. Lamont vs Siscoe/Salza on St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #26 on: October 25, 2019, 11:52:19 PM »
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  • Since it appears you do not include the traditional clergy, can you give examples of Catholic clergy in 2019?
    Everyone with an office who has not been formally excommunicated?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Dr. Lamont vs Siscoe/Salza on St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #27 on: October 26, 2019, 07:32:15 AM »
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  • Everyone with an office who has not been formally excommunicated?
    Can you name one or two?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Dr. Lamont vs Siscoe/Salza on St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #28 on: October 26, 2019, 08:25:51 AM »
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  • Can you name one or two?
    Every Bishop in America?  Canada?  Pick another country?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Dr. Lamont vs Siscoe/Salza on St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #29 on: October 26, 2019, 08:29:07 AM »
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  • Every Bishop in America?  Canada?  Pick another country?
    So, all of the bishops in the Conciliar Church are Catholic?