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Author Topic: Does the Neo-SSPX teach the Truths Necessary for Salvation? (Athanasian Creed).  (Read 886 times)

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Offline coeurvoil

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Re: Does the Neo-SSPX teach the Truths Necessary for Salvation? (Athanasian Creed).
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2025, 07:42:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: ThatBritPapist on June 16, 2025, 07:30:36 PM
    Forgot aswell Fr Brucciani. He was a mediocre District Superior however his Brother is a lovely Priest and a great Head master who runs the St Michaels School
    There is growing discussion in parts of North America about beginning Rosary gatherings outside Neo-SSPX chapels during Mass. Not as a protest, but as an act of reparation and a plea for Heaven’s intervention.

    If this does begin, it would be a grace to see those in the Resistance who still attend these Masses unite in prayer. Not with hostility, but with the desire that Bishop Fellay would publicly acknowledge and reject the 2012 agreement with Rome.

    This is not about division. It is about fidelity. Charity without compromise. Truth without silence.


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    Offline StonewallCatho

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    Re: Does the Neo-SSPX teach the Truths Necessary for Salvation? (Athanasian Creed).
    « Reply #16 on: June 16, 2025, 08:31:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: coeurvoil on June 16, 2025, 07:42:00 PM
    There is growing discussion in parts of North America about beginning Rosary gatherings outside Neo-SSPX chapels during Mass. Not as a protest, but as an act of reparation and a plea for Heaven’s intervention.

    .



    A good intention, but a bad idea. It would undoubtedly be known by the priest and faithful at Mass, and therefore create a huge distraction to them, thus interfering with the proper worship of God. This is clearly a case where the end cannot justify the means. There is even an article of the Canadian Criminal Code that prohibits disruption and trouble during an act of worship, punishable by up to 2 years in jail.

    Maybe people should send lots of paper mail to Menzingen to ask for a return to the 2006 General Chapter policy "No practical agreement without a doctrinal agreement". Maybe the accuмulation of letters would open their eyes to our dissatisfaction... Although I think they have already reached the point of no return. They have already accepted many "concessions" from Rome (Penance, Marriage, Ordinations, Internal Tribunals, Huonder the Wonder)...
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Does the Neo-SSPX teach the Truths Necessary for Salvation? (Athanasian Creed).
    « Reply #17 on: June 16, 2025, 10:12:47 PM »
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    • So, here's the problem, people.  If you believe the V2 papal claimants are actually popes, there's nothing wrong with trying to find ways to be subject to the Vicar of Christ.  In fact, one is absolutely required to make every possible effort.

    It's only if you have the intellectual honesty to admit that, yeah, there's definitely some doubt about whether they're popes, that you can justify a refusal of submission.

    Pre-V2 Canonists state that one is not schismatic for refusal of submission due to well-founded doubts about a putative Pope's legitimacy ... the logical corollary being that you are if you don't entertain such doubts.

    Now, you do realize also that +Lefebvre, +Tissier, and +Williamson have all stated at various times that it's possible these guys aren't popes ... and such a position suffices to absolve from schism.  You know this means they are not actually sedeplenists, right?  See, most theologians hold that papal legitimacy is dogmatic fact, meaning that it's just as certain as that God is Three Divine Persons.  It's as much a heresy to doubt a dogmatic fact as it is to deny it.  If you say that it's possible there are 4 Persons in God, even if you don't commit to it but just say it's possible, that means you do not accept the dogma of the Holy Trinity with the certainty of faith ... and you're a heretic.  Same with these papal claimants.

    Now, you could say that you give them the benefit of the doubt just in case and obey when you can ...but again that's only if you admit some doubt.

    There's a theological maxim that a doubtful pope is no pope, for this very reason.

    So if you believe, as +Fellay does, that it's absolutely certain with the certainty of faith that they're popes, not only is he doing nothing wrong by trying to re-enter a state of submission to the Vicar of Christ, but he actually needs to try much harder, i.e. actually do it.

    Just be honest that you're not as certain that Prevost is pope as that Christ is God, i.e. that there's some reasonable doubt about his legitimacy ... and save your faith from being shipwrecked with heresy.  That's all you need to do ... admit some doubt.  Or else consider Father Chazal's position ... rather than slouching toward Old Catholicism as many of you have done.
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    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Does the Neo-SSPX teach the Truths Necessary for Salvation? (Athanasian Creed).
    « Reply #18 on: June 16, 2025, 10:30:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 16, 2025, 10:12:47 PM
    .. admit some doubt.  Or else consider Father Chazal's position ... rather than slouching toward Old Catholicism as many of you have done.
    Kindly explain in simple terms, Father Chazal’s position, Sedeprivationist, and Old Catholicism.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Does the Neo-SSPX teach the Truths Necessary for Salvation? (Athanasian Creed).
    « Reply #19 on: Yesterday at 04:49:14 AM »
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    • Quote from: StonewallCatho on June 16, 2025, 05:29:21 PM
    Thank you to both of you, Stubborn and Seraphina. Would you mind telling us the locations? Last news from Canada is from the big Toronto parish: There was no mention of the Athanasian Creed.
    St. Joseph's, Ray Township, MI
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

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    Offline coeurvoil

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    Re: Does the Neo-SSPX teach the Truths Necessary for Salvation? (Athanasian Creed).
    « Reply #20 on: Yesterday at 12:27:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: StonewallCatho on June 16, 2025, 08:31:11 PM
    A good intention, but a bad idea. It would undoubtedly be known by the priest and faithful at Mass, and therefore create a huge distraction to them, thus interfering with the proper worship of God. This is clearly a case where the end cannot justify the means. There is even an article of the Canadian Criminal Code that prohibits disruption and trouble during an act of worship, punishable by up to 2 years in jail.

    Maybe people should send lots of paper mail to Menzingen to ask for a return to the 2006 General Chapter policy "No practical agreement without a doctrinal agreement". Maybe the accuмulation of letters would open their eyes to our dissatisfaction... Although I think they have already reached the point of no return. They have already accepted many "concessions" from Rome (Penance, Marriage, Ordinations, Internal Tribunals, Huonder the Wonder)...
    Thank you for your concern, but respectfully, this line of thinking is precisely why things have gotten this far.

    The Rosary is not a disruption—it is a weapon. It is the public prayer of the Church. In times of crisis, when betrayal happens inside the sanctuary, the most Catholic thing one can do is take up the Rosary outside it.

    What causes the greater scandal before God: a few faithful praying the Rosary in reparation, or priests offering the Holy Sacrifice under the shadow of a practical agreement with apostates in Rome?

    As for civil penalties: since when did fear of human laws prevent Catholics from doing what is right? The Vendée did not wait for legal clearance. The Cristeros did not pause because the penal code warned them. And if we are afraid to be seen praying the Rosary, what are we really fighting for?

    As for your suggestion to write Menzingen—Menzingen already knows. They were warned in 2012 and they crossed the line anyway. They have traded the clear path of Archbishop Lefebvre for recognition from Modernist Rome. And the silence from within only emboldens them.

    Our Rosaries are not protests. They are acts of love for Our Lord, of sorrow for betrayal, and of hope for restoration. The faithful outside praying may be the last reminder to those inside that Heaven still waits—for repentance, not compromise.
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Does the Neo-SSPX teach the Truths Necessary for Salvation? (Athanasian Creed).
    « Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 12:36:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: coeurvoil on Yesterday at 12:27:00 PM
    The Rosary is not a disruption—it is a weapon. It is the public prayer of the Church.
    No, the Rosary is NOT the public prayer of the Church.

    The public prayer of the Church consists of the Eucharistic liturgy (variously called  the Mass, the Divine Liturgy, the Holy Qurbana, depending upon liturgical Rite), the Divine Office, the sacramental rites, and official blessings and processions.

    The Rosary is a devotional (private) prayer proper to the Latin Church sui juris, although Easterners may choose to pray it as well as we Latins may choose to pray Eastern devotions. The Rosary however is not the public prayer of the Church, although it can be incorporated into public prayer, such as, recitation of the Rosary during a procession or exposition of the Blessed Sacrament.
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    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Does the Neo-SSPX teach the Truths Necessary for Salvation? (Athanasian Creed).
    « Reply #22 on: Yesterday at 01:39:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on Yesterday at 12:36:13 PM
    No, the Rosary is NOT the public prayer of the Church.

    The public prayer of the Church consists of the Eucharistic liturgy (variously called  the Mass, the Divine Liturgy, the Holy Qurbana, depending upon liturgical Rite), the Divine Office, the sacramental rites, and official blessings and processions.

    The Rosary is a devotional (private) prayer proper to the Latin Church sui juris, although Easterners may choose to pray it as well as we Latins may choose to pray Eastern devotions. The Rosary however is not the public prayer of the Church, although it can be incorporated into public prayer, such as, recitation of the Rosary during a procession or exposition of the Blessed Sacrament.
    Great post, Elwin. However, I am wondering why praying the Rosary is not the "norm" in the Eastern Churches as well..with the great promises given by Our Lady to those who daily and faithfully pray the Rosary? Do they have a similar, basically "most important" private prayer? Do they also have similar devotions to, say, the First Saturdays and Fridays?
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Does the Neo-SSPX teach the Truths Necessary for Salvation? (Athanasian Creed).
    « Reply #23 on: Yesterday at 05:14:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on Yesterday at 01:39:03 PM
    Great post, Elwin. However, I am wondering why praying the Rosary is not the "norm" in the Eastern Churches as well..with the great promises given by Our Lady to those who daily and faithfully pray the Rosary? Do they have a similar, basically "most important" private prayer? Do they also have similar devotions to, say, the First Saturdays and Fridays?
    The Eastern Churches of the Byzantine Rite have the Akathist Hymn to the Holy Theotokos which is indulgenced the same as the Holy Rosary. In fact, whenever the Rosary is singled-out in a Roman docuмent for special attention or use, the docuмent will usually reference the Akathist Hymn as the analog for use by the Eastern Catholics. This words and chant for Akathist Hymn are ancient, going back to the 6th century.

    Easterners do have a knotted prayer cord called a чётки (Tchokti) in the Slavic Byzantine tradition. It is similar in appearance to a Rosary but is used to recite the Jesus Prayer.

    Eastern Catholics can keep the First Fridays and First Saturdays if they choose, but these are generally alien to their tradition. They have many cultural religious devotions that would seem equally alien to most Latin Catholics. If either is kept by Eastern Catholics, it is more likely First Saturdays because of the Fatima/Russia connection. Eastern Orthodox and REALLY STRICT Eastern Catholics (meaning they are pure Eastern with no Latinisations) observe nothing of either First Friday or First Saturday precisely because these have no connection to Eastern theology, spirituality, history, or liturgy.
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    Offline StonewallCatho

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    Re: Does the Neo-SSPX teach the Truths Necessary for Salvation? (Athanasian Creed).
    « Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 08:07:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on Yesterday at 12:36:13 PM
    No, the Rosary is NOT the public prayer of the Church.

    The public prayer of the Church consists of the Eucharistic liturgy (variously called  the Mass, the Divine Liturgy, the Holy Qurbana, depending upon liturgical Rite), the Divine Office, the sacramental rites, and official blessings and processions.

    The Rosary is a devotional (private) prayer proper to the Latin Church sui juris, although Easterners may choose to pray it as well as we Latins may choose to pray Eastern devotions. The Rosary however is not the public prayer of the Church, although it can be incorporated into public prayer, such as, recitation of the Rosary during a procession or exposition of the Blessed Sacrament.
    Yes, thank you. Even the civil authorities understand the faithful have a right to worship in peace and quiet. To voluntarily cause a distraction like a Rosary Protest at the church door during Mass, when Our Lord offers Himself again on the Altar, would be a Mortal Sin. The Rosary has not been inspired by Our Lady as a tool to distract souls from worshipping Her Son. The Rosary must not become a tool of spiritual Terrorism.

    Such an action would also have the contrary effect than what was intended. Instead of making people reflect on Menzingen's betrayal, it would close their minds, as they would see this disruption as a confirmation that they were right to think the Resistance is nothing but a motley crew of screwballs and lunatics..
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    Offline coeurvoil

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    Re: Does the Neo-SSPX teach the Truths Necessary for Salvation? (Athanasian Creed).
    « Reply #25 on: Yesterday at 08:20:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on Yesterday at 12:36:13 PM
    No, the Rosary is NOT the public prayer of the Church.

    The public prayer of the Church consists of the Eucharistic liturgy (variously called  the Mass, the Divine Liturgy, the Holy Qurbana, depending upon liturgical Rite), the Divine Office, the sacramental rites, and official blessings and processions.

    The Rosary is a devotional (private) prayer proper to the Latin Church sui juris, although Easterners may choose to pray it as well as we Latins may choose to pray Eastern devotions. The Rosary however is not the public prayer of the Church, although it can be incorporated into public prayer, such as, recitation of the Rosary during a procession or exposition of the Blessed Sacrament.
    You're right that the Rosary isn't public liturgical prayer. But you're wrong to say it's not public prayer at all.

    When Catholics unite to pray it publicly—especially in reparation or defense of the Faith—it becomes a public act of Catholic witness, just as Popes like Leo XIII and Pius XI used it.

    At Lepanto, it was public.
    At Fatima, it was public.
    In every age of crisis, the Church has raised the Rosary as a public weapon, not a private whisper.

    It’s not about rubric. It’s about Catholic action.
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    Offline coeurvoil

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    Re: Does the Neo-SSPX teach the Truths Necessary for Salvation? (Athanasian Creed).
    « Reply #26 on: Yesterday at 08:25:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: StonewallCatho on Yesterday at 08:07:00 PM
    Yes, thank you. Even the civil authorities understand the faithful have a right to worship in peace and quiet. To voluntarily cause a distraction like a Rosary Protest at the church door during Mass, when Our Lord offers Himself again on the Altar, would be a Mortal Sin. The Rosary has not been inspired by Our Lady as a tool to distract souls from worshipping Her Son. The Rosary must not become a tool of spiritual Terrorism.

    Such an action would also have the contrary effect than what was intended. Instead of making people reflect on Menzingen's betrayal, it would close their minds, as they would see this disruption as a confirmation that they were right to think the Resistance is nothing but a motley crew of screwballs and lunatics..
    Calling the Rosary “spiritual terrorism” is blasphemous. It’s Our Lady’s weapon—not a disruption.

    She used it at Lepanto. She demanded it at Fatima. Archbishop Lefebvre led Rosary Crusades to resist compromise.

    Christ is not honored by silence in the face of betrayal.
    He is honored when His Mother is invoked—in public, in reparation, in truth.
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    Offline coeurvoil

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    Re: Does the Neo-SSPX teach the Truths Necessary for Salvation? (Athanasian Creed).
    « Reply #27 on: Yesterday at 08:28:14 PM »
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    • Such naturalism in this thread, we do get the leaders we deserve.
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Does the Neo-SSPX teach the Truths Necessary for Salvation? (Athanasian Creed).
    « Reply #28 on: Yesterday at 09:13:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: coeurvoil on Yesterday at 08:28:14 PM
    Such naturalism in this thread, we do get the leaders we deserve.
    No, not naturalism. What I have written is the soundest liturgical theology based upon ritual prayer, dogmatic and systematic theology, and ecclesiastical law. I ought to know -- yes, here it comes -- as I hold three graduate degrees in sacred sciences. It's my PROFESSION beyond my CONFESSION.

    You, Newbie, are however a loudmouth with a traddier-than-thou attitude. And DO NOT ACCUSE ME OF ANY NONSENSE SUCH AS MODERNISM, LIBERALISM, OR NATURALISM. I am a known sedeprivationist/sedevacantist on CathInfo, a former SSPX seminarian from the old days of +Lefebvre and +Williamson (may they rest in peace), and am Third Order SSPX brother (again professed in the old days before Fellay wrecked the SSPX). This places me to the ecclesiological right of many R&R here.

    You, Newbie, should speak less and listen more until you have earned your place here. Or are you someone previously banned and now returned under a new account? Hmm...?
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Does the Neo-SSPX teach the Truths Necessary for Salvation? (Athanasian Creed).
    « Reply #29 on: Yesterday at 09:21:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: coeurvoil on Yesterday at 08:20:28 PM
    You're right that the Rosary isn't public liturgical prayer. But you're wrong to say it's not public prayer...

    It’s not about rubric. It’s about Catholic action.

    That is not me denying that Rosary is public prayer. That is holy Mother Church. "Public prayer" is defined by the Church as the official, liturgical prayer of the Church. All else is private, devotional prayer. Canon Law defines it this way; Sacramental Theology defines it this way; Liturgical Theology defines it this way.

    It's about Catholic action? It sounds more like its about your ego and will to power. Shape up and stop sounding off like a theological sophomore. You make a major blunder by conflating private prayer being done in public with public prayer. Sophomore, pure sophomore. 
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    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
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