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Author Topic: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANSIATION ?  (Read 13771 times)

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Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANSIATION ?
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2018, 04:55:22 PM »
At The Consecration The Host and Wine only have the APPEARANCE OF BREAD AND WINE . The elements have been changed INTO THE BODY ,BLOOD, SOUL AND DIVINITY OF OUR LORD. THINK OF THE MIRACLE OF LANCIANO, That happens everyday at Mass. Has anyone tested to see after The CONSECRATION if there was gluten present ? I doubt they have.
It's correct that after transubstantiation, the substance is the body and blood of Christ, under the appearances (called "accidents") of bread and wine. However all physically measurable qualities are accidents, so according to Catholic theology, no physical test would show a difference before and after the consecration. Catholics would not expect the measured gluten content to change. So celiacs who would react to an unconsecrated wheat wafer would be expected to have the same reactions to a consecrated host, unless another miracle prevented it.

As a different issue, wheat hosts are required for validity of the sacrament, because that's what our Lord used. Even the modern church requires wheat hosts, and gluten is considered essential to what, so non-gluten hosts of any form are not valid matter. Rice cakes wouldn't work. But for the sake of celiacs, the Church permits low-gluten hosts. Celiac priests would need to take communion under the species of bread at any mass they offered. (The modern church also has communion under the species of wine, so laypersons have an extra option.)

Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANSIATION ?
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2018, 05:36:54 PM »
The Miracle happened at The Consecration, no other Miracle is needed !
You understand that after the Consecration, the appearances of bread remain. Do you realize that means they act like bread to all physical measurements and activities, including chemistry?


Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANSIATION ?
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2018, 07:22:06 PM »
Have you checked out the physical components after The Consecration ?
I haven't checked out anything, but it seems to look and taste and weigh the same as before the Consecration.

I also don't feel any particular need to. Catholic theology on this is clear - the substance is changed but the accidents appear and behave the same as before the Consecration.

Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANTIATION ?
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2018, 12:42:46 AM »
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Apparently cosmas has not learned what substance vs. accidents means.
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I know someone who refuses to use the word "accident" in this way because he says, "An accident is something that shouldn't happen."
Maybe we should come up with a new word for it, but for now, we have what we have.
St. Thomas Aquinas is the first one to distinguish these terms and to bring natural human thinking into the realm of Church theology in this matter.
His work rose to the papacy, and his Lauda Sion Salvatorem became the Sequence at Mass on the Feast of Corpus Christi as a result.
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At the consecration of the host and altar wine, their substance is changed into the substance of Our Lord Jesus, and this is a matter of faith.
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But the accidents of the host and wine remain, unchanged.
     The host still looks, smells, weighs, tests, appears, acts and reacts (chemically) the same as an unconsecrated host does.
     And the wine still has alcohol, if you drink too much consecrated wine you'll get drunk, it weighs the same, looks the same and acts the same.
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There can never be any measurable difference in the consecrated host and wine, in the normal state of affairs.
     That's not to say that no difference ever happens, but when there is a difference, that is called a miracle because it can't be explained by science.
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Therefore, if there were gluten in the wheat before the consecration, the same gluten would be there after the consecration, and it would act the same.
     The same gluten intolerant person would be just as intolerant toward the consecrated host as to a non-consecrated host of the same lot number.
     That is to say, under normal circuмstances that's what happens.
     And the miracle of transubstantiation takes place under normal circuмstances.
     When we say "Eucharistic miracle" we are not talking about a normally valid consecration and the expected effects of that normal scene.
     Eucharistic miracles are outside normal circuмstances, when visible, testable changes are seen taking place in the host and/or wine.
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If a gluten intolerant person does NOT react to a consecrated host with gluten in it, THAT would be out of the ordinary, which could happen.
     It could happen but it probably won't happen, and it would be highly presumptuous to expect it to happen, so we shouldn't do that.
     However, God can do what He wants any time He wants, and He might reward someone with simple faith who just believes he'll be okay.
     There have been recorded cases of a person living for years without taking any food except for the host in Holy Communion every day.
     That is not proof that anyone can do that any time without fear or fact of starving to death.
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Therefore, when we hear of someone who is gluten intolerant not having any reaction to gluten-containing hosts, that is not the end of the story.
     We should not conclude that proves once and for all that the consecration removes the effects of the gluten.
     Maybe it does in one chapel or with one priest, or when one particular person receives it.
     But that might be a quiet miracle taking place because it is not something that we ought to proclaim will always be the case.

Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANSIATION ?
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2018, 01:07:16 AM »
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A priest can still give a crumb.
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I'd like to know what's going on here in other chapels because I know one doctor who says that no amount of gluten is okay.
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He says to be gluten free and to lose the effects due to gluten intolerance you have to remove ALL the gluten from your life.
The pet food in the house must be gluten free, your other family members must not eat gluten even when out of the house.
You can't wash your clothes in the same machine as someone else who eats gluten, so you can't use the laundromat.
You can't consume anything that has so much as touched other food with gluten.
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That would rule out carrying a gluten free host in the same ciborium with other hosts that contain gluten.
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And it would absolutely rule out any benefit in the priest giving a crumb, as you say, songbird.
      Because consuming a crumb is far and away more gluten intake than touching a gluten free host to another host with gluten.