Author Topic: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANSIATION ?  (Read 3529 times)

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Offline Stanley N

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANSIATION ?
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2018, 09:16:37 AM »
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  • Do they take the small chip at Latin Rite mass?

    No, for my wife and daughter, they would have to consume the equivalent of about half a piece of bread before experiencing problems, and Communion hosts are small enough where it doesn't cause them serious problems.


    Offline dymphnaw

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    Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANSIATION ?
    « Reply #17 on: November 13, 2018, 01:50:29 PM »
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  • I know of at least one SSPX chapel where there is a gluten free host given out at communion time to a person or persons. How can they do this if they believe a miracle happens.
    Why so melodramatic? How do you KNOW that they use a gluten free Host?  

    Offline cosmas

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    Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANTIATION ?
    « Reply #18 on: November 13, 2018, 01:56:41 PM »
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  • Transubstantiation and the Real Presence

    by Matt Slick
    Transubstantiation is the teaching that during the Mass, at the consecration in the Lord's Supper (Communion), the elements of the Eucharist, bread and wine, are transformed into the actual body and blood of Jesus and that they are no longer bread and wine but only retain their appearance of bread and wine.
    The term "Real Presence," when used by Roman Catholics, refers to Christ's physical presence in the form of the bread and the wine that have been transubstantiated into His literal body and blood.
    Paragraph 1376 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) states,

    Quote
    The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation (CCC, 1376).
    [size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
    Because they are the presence of Christ himself, Catholics worship and adore the elements.[/font][/size]


    Offline cosmas

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    Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANSIATION ?
    « Reply #19 on: November 13, 2018, 02:02:49 PM »
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  • At The Consecration The Host and Wine only have the APPEARANCE OF BREAD AND WINE . The elements have been changed INTO THE BODY ,BLOOD, SOUL AND DIVINITY OF OUR LORD. THINK OF THE MIRACLE OF LANCIANO, That happens everyday at Mass. Has anyone tested to see after The CONSECRATION if there was gluten present ? I doubt they have.


    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANSIATION ?
    « Reply #20 on: November 13, 2018, 04:55:22 PM »
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  • At The Consecration The Host and Wine only have the APPEARANCE OF BREAD AND WINE . The elements have been changed INTO THE BODY ,BLOOD, SOUL AND DIVINITY OF OUR LORD. THINK OF THE MIRACLE OF LANCIANO, That happens everyday at Mass. Has anyone tested to see after The CONSECRATION if there was gluten present ? I doubt they have.
    It's correct that after transubstantiation, the substance is the body and blood of Christ, under the appearances (called "accidents") of bread and wine. However all physically measurable qualities are accidents, so according to Catholic theology, no physical test would show a difference before and after the consecration. Catholics would not expect the measured gluten content to change. So celiacs who would react to an unconsecrated wheat wafer would be expected to have the same reactions to a consecrated host, unless another miracle prevented it.

    As a different issue, wheat hosts are required for validity of the sacrament, because that's what our Lord used. Even the modern church requires wheat hosts, and gluten is considered essential to what, so non-gluten hosts of any form are not valid matter. Rice cakes wouldn't work. But for the sake of celiacs, the Church permits low-gluten hosts. Celiac priests would need to take communion under the species of bread at any mass they offered. (The modern church also has communion under the species of wine, so laypersons have an extra option.)

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANSIATION ?
    « Reply #21 on: November 13, 2018, 05:36:54 PM »
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  • The Miracle happened at The Consecration, no other Miracle is needed !
    You understand that after the Consecration, the appearances of bread remain. Do you realize that means they act like bread to all physical measurements and activities, including chemistry?

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANSIATION ?
    « Reply #22 on: November 13, 2018, 07:22:06 PM »
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  • Have you checked out the physical components after The Consecration ?
    I haven't checked out anything, but it seems to look and taste and weigh the same as before the Consecration.

    I also don't feel any particular need to. Catholic theology on this is clear - the substance is changed but the accidents appear and behave the same as before the Consecration.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANTIATION ?
    « Reply #23 on: November 14, 2018, 12:42:46 AM »
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  • .
    Apparently cosmas has not learned what substance vs. accidents means.
    .
    I know someone who refuses to use the word "accident" in this way because he says, "An accident is something that shouldn't happen."
    Maybe we should come up with a new word for it, but for now, we have what we have.
    St. Thomas Aquinas is the first one to distinguish these terms and to bring natural human thinking into the realm of Church theology in this matter.
    His work rose to the papacy, and his Lauda Sion Salvatorem became the Sequence at Mass on the Feast of Corpus Christi as a result.
    .
    At the consecration of the host and altar wine, their substance is changed into the substance of Our Lord Jesus, and this is a matter of faith.
    .
    But the accidents of the host and wine remain, unchanged.
         The host still looks, smells, weighs, tests, appears, acts and reacts (chemically) the same as an unconsecrated host does.
         And the wine still has alcohol, if you drink too much consecrated wine you'll get drunk, it weighs the same, looks the same and acts the same.
    .
    There can never be any measurable difference in the consecrated host and wine, in the normal state of affairs.
         That's not to say that no difference ever happens, but when there is a difference, that is called a miracle because it can't be explained by science.
    .
    Therefore, if there were gluten in the wheat before the consecration, the same gluten would be there after the consecration, and it would act the same.
         The same gluten intolerant person would be just as intolerant toward the consecrated host as to a non-consecrated host of the same lot number.
         That is to say, under normal circumstances that's what happens.
         And the miracle of transubstantiation takes place under normal circumstances.
         When we say "Eucharistic miracle" we are not talking about a normally valid consecration and the expected effects of that normal scene.
         Eucharistic miracles are outside normal circumstances, when visible, testable changes are seen taking place in the host and/or wine.
    .
    If a gluten intolerant person does NOT react to a consecrated host with gluten in it, THAT would be out of the ordinary, which could happen.
         It could happen but it probably won't happen, and it would be highly presumptuous to expect it to happen, so we shouldn't do that.
         However, God can do what He wants any time He wants, and He might reward someone with simple faith who just believes he'll be okay.
         There have been recorded cases of a person living for years without taking any food except for the host in Holy Communion every day.
         That is not proof that anyone can do that any time without fear or fact of starving to death.
    .
    Therefore, when we hear of someone who is gluten intolerant not having any reaction to gluten-containing hosts, that is not the end of the story.
         We should not conclude that proves once and for all that the consecration removes the effects of the gluten.
         Maybe it does in one chapel or with one priest, or when one particular person receives it.
         But that might be a quiet miracle taking place because it is not something that we ought to proclaim will always be the case.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANSIATION ?
    « Reply #24 on: November 14, 2018, 01:07:16 AM »
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  • .
    A priest can still give a crumb.
    .
    I'd like to know what's going on here in other chapels because I know one doctor who says that no amount of gluten is okay.
    .
    He says to be gluten free and to lose the effects due to gluten intolerance you have to remove ALL the gluten from your life.
    The pet food in the house must be gluten free, your other family members must not eat gluten even when out of the house.
    You can't wash your clothes in the same machine as someone else who eats gluten, so you can't use the laundromat.
    You can't consume anything that has so much as touched other food with gluten.
    .
    That would rule out carrying a gluten free host in the same ciborium with other hosts that contain gluten.
    .
    And it would absolutely rule out any benefit in the priest giving a crumb, as you say, songbird.
          Because consuming a crumb is far and away more gluten intake than touching a gluten free host to another host with gluten.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANTIATION ?
    « Reply #25 on: November 14, 2018, 01:52:56 AM »
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  • .
    At The Consecration the Host and Wine only have the APPEARANCE OF BREAD AND WINE. The elements have been changed INTO THE BODY, BLOOD, SOUL AND DIVINITY OF OUR LORD. THINK OF THE MIRACLE OF LANCIANO, That happens everyday at Mass. Has anyone tested to see after The CONSECRATION if there was gluten present? I doubt they have.
    .
    This post is rife with confusion and misunderstanding based on presumption and lack of study or research or comprehension.
    .
    One thing at a time:
    .
    At The Consecration the Host and Wine only have the APPEARANCE OF BREAD AND WINE.   --- Not true.
    While it IS true that the host and wine have the appearance of bread and wine, that is not ALL they have: it's not a matter of "only".
    In this case the word "appearance" is a one-word abbreviation for the full topic of what they have.
    They have everything that is LIKE appearance too, such as smell, heft, color, size, taste, feel -- that is, everything sensible to man.
    But it's more than that, because accidents include everything that instruments designed by man can be used to detect.
    Things such as weight, atomic structure, radioactivity, x-ray pictures, non-visible light spectrum analysis, density, hardness, brittleness, and so on.
    Any possible chemical reaction is also included in the accidents of a material object.
    So it is more correct to say the host and wine continue to have the same ACCIDENTS of bread and wine (instead of "appearance").
    But the word "accidents" is not normally used in our culture in this sense so uninformed people (like cosmas here) would be ignorant of that.
    .
    The elements have been changed INTO THE BODY, BLOOD, SOUL AND DIVINITY OF OUR LORD.   --- Well, not so fast.
    The host and wine have been changed into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord, yes, but they don't look that way.
    Remember, they retain the appearance of bread and wine.
    But appearance needs to be replaced with accidents, so THEY RETAIN THE ACCIDENTS OF BREAD AND WINE.
    To say "the elements have been changed" is vague, and could lead to misunderstanding that the physical atomic structure and molecules
         of the bread and wine are suddenly altered somehow, which, if they were, an electron microscope would be able to SEE the difference.
         Remember, no device made by man will ever be able to detect the change that has happened in the consecrated host and wine.
    The infallibly defined Catholic dogma that their substance has become the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity is a matter of divine faith.
    This faith is what we receive at Holy Baptism, and it is not something that can be attained by human effort without God's grace.
    So count it a miracle of grace that you believe in trasubstantiation, because Lutherans, for example, do not.
    Perhaps that means that Lutherans might not have a valid baptism, but that's another topic.
    .
    THINK OF THE MIRACLE OF LANCIANO, That happens everyday at Mass.  ---  Well, not really.
    The miracle of Lanciano happened hundreds of years ago and while there have been similar eucharistic miracles since, it's not the norm.
    Every valid consecration effects the same transubstantiation that occurred at Lanciano, but there, changes in the accidents were sensible.
    Normally there are no changes in the accidents and no such changes are sensible to man, whether by his 5 senses or by some fancy machine.
    Normally there are no changes in the appearances or the molecular structure or the chemical potential of the consecrated material bread and wine.
    .
    Has anyone tested to see after The CONSECRATION if there was gluten present? I doubt they have.  ---  Many tests have been done.
    There were tiny samples taken from the Laciano eucharistic miracle and they were sent to chemical labs to test for what it appeared to be.
    There have been samples taken from other such eucharistic miracles and sent to forensic labs, cutting-edge technicians and doctors have reviewed.
    What they have found was the fibers of human heart muscle tissue were microscopically intertwined with the fibers of the host wheat.
    Wheat host fibers are fibers BECAUSE they are being held in that shape by the gluten in their structure.
    Without gluten the wheat has no such fibers.
    Gluten free wheat crumbles like mush and cannot hold the shape of anything, including the shape of a host, unless something is substituted.
    There might be some other material that could take the place of gluten to keep gluten free wheat in the shape of a host.
    So when a priest holds the host up like at the elevation or when he's distributing Communion, the hosts have their shape because of gluten.
    Wondering whether there is still gluten or not is a moot point. Of course there is still gluten.
    There continues to be gluten even in the bread portions of eucharistic miracles.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANTIATION ?
    « Reply #26 on: November 14, 2018, 02:54:02 AM »
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  • Yes that is the way it is done. When the priest gets to the person, he breaks off a small chip and gives it to the person.

    However, in the example the OP gave, the priests is giving a special communion to the person. I have seen it done, the priests after he is done with everyone, goes up to the tabernacle and brings back the special host just for that one person. It is quite a spectacle on Sundays.

    In my opinion, it is an unnecessary spectacle for the parents or the person. I think it has to do more with pride than avoiding illness. If the person was so allergic to wheat that they can't even eat a small chip, then they would be sick all the time, because there are more accidental pieces of wheat in all the food that they eat every day.
    .
    Here is an example of "accidental" used with an entirely different connotation than "accidents of bread and wine."  
    "Accidental pieces of wheat" is categorically different from the accidents of wheat.
    .
    Furthermore, it might be inaccurate to presume that gluten intolerance is the same as "allergy" or "allergic."
    There are doctors and health care professionals that say gluten intolerant people have a variety of intense conditions consequent to eating gluten.
    For example, overweight or even obesity can hardly be considered an effect of allergy, but it is one of the consequent conditions of gluten intolerance.
    .
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANSIATION ?
    « Reply #27 on: November 14, 2018, 08:07:56 AM »
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  • At the SSPX chapel in San Antonio, a couple years ago, one man received the Precious Blood during Mass on Sunday. He had some kind of allergy or intolerance. The priest would administer to him from a small chalice kept in the tabernacle. 

    It really was quite a spectacle. It's a shame Trad priests don't have more time, to say more Masses for each area per week, so that individuals like this could have their special needs met at a Mass with less attendance.

    That presumes that such catering to special needs is legitimate. I honestly don't know, not having studied this in a professional manner.

    I do know that we had a parishioner who was gluten intolerant, but she never got to receive Communion. Not from a gluten free or low-gluten host, and not from the chalice. This was under Bp. Zendejas. 
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANSIATION ?
    « Reply #28 on: November 14, 2018, 08:10:56 AM »
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  • I must also point out:

    Read and pay attention to Neil Obstat's responses to Cosmas in this thread.

    Cosmas might have his heart in the right place, but he is mistaken about what "Transubstantiation" means. He is not a theologian, having never attended Seminary or learned Thomistic philosophy (substance and accident), so it's understandable that he is ignorant about this particular theological point. I'm sure he's not alone here.

    I hope that he, and anyone else, reads Neil's posts for a clear and thorough explanation of the matter.

    A small sample of Neil's excellent, theologically sound exposition of the topic:


    Quote
    While it IS true that the host and wine have the appearance of bread and wine, that is not ALL they have: it's not a matter of "only".
    In this case the word "appearance" is a one-word abbreviation for the full topic of what they have.
    They have everything that is LIKE appearance too, such as smell, heft, color, size, taste, feel -- that is, everything sensible to man.
    But it's more than that, because accidents include everything that instruments designed by man can be used to detect.
    Things such as weight, atomic structure, radioactivity, x-ray pictures, non-visible light spectrum analysis, density, hardness, brittleness, and so on.
    Any possible chemical reaction is also included in the accidents of a material object.
    So it is more correct to say the host and wine continue to have the same ACCIDENTS of bread and wine (instead of "appearance").
    But the word "accidents" is not normally used in our culture in this sense so uninformed people (like cosmas here) would be ignorant of that.
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    Offline cosmas

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    Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANSIATION ?
    « Reply #29 on: November 14, 2018, 09:48:12 AM »
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  • I just want to say "THANKYOU " FOR ENLIGHTENING ME on this subject. There's much food for thought. i'm going to do some more research on this situation myself. Thanks again for the input !

     

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