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Author Topic: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANSIATION ?  (Read 11612 times)

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Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANSIATION ?
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2018, 05:38:32 PM »
I just want to say "THANKYOU " FOR ENLIGHTENING ME on this subject. There's much food for thought. i'm going to do some more research on this situation myself. Thanks again for the input !
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What a wonderful response!
I had no idea this would happen. Now here is a man with interest, humility, and a desire to learn!
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But you might find it a serious challenge to get reliable materials to study.
The Summa of St. Thomas is a good reference but it's not organized to be a textbook for learning about things like this.
And the language / structure is a bit challenging until you get accustomed to it.
Perhaps Matthew can recommend a reference work that is used in seminary classes for the basics in philosophy.
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In the meantime, you can contemplate the translation of the Latin sequence Lauda Sion Salvatorem to get a better feel for this topic.
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http://catholicism.org/lauda-sion-salvatorem.html
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Lauda Sion Salvatorem is a sequence prescribed for the Roman Catholic Mass of Corpus Christi. It was written by St. Thomas Aquinas around 1264, at the request of Pope Urban IV for the new Mass of this Feast, along with Pange lingua, Sacris solemniis, Adoro te devote, and Verbum supernum prodiens, which are used in the Divine Office. The hymn tells of the institution of the Eucharist and clearly expresses the Catholic belief in transubstantiation. As with St. Thomas’ other three Eucharistic hymns, the last few stanzas are often used alone, in this case, the Ecce panis Angelorum.

Lauda Sion is one of only five medieval Sequences which were preserved in the Missale Romanum published in 1570 following the Council of Trent (1545–63). Before Trent many feasts had their own sequences.[1] It is still sung today, though its use is optional in the post-Vatican II Ordinary form. The Gregorian melody is borrowed from the 11c sequence Laetabundi iubilemus attributed to Adam de Saint-Victor.
All of the above is taken from WikiPedia. Now for YouTube…
The chant version (as St. Thomas wrote it), sung by the Benedictine Monks of the Abbey of St. Maurice & St. Maur: (...)
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http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Hymni/LaudaSion.html
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When Pope Urban IV (1261-1264) first established the Feast of Corpus Christi, he requested St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) to compose hymns for it. This is one of the five beautiful hymns Aquinas composed in honor of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. In addition to Lauda Sion, St. Thomas wrote Adoro Te Devote, Pange Lingua, Sacris Sollemnis and Verbum Supernum. Lauda Sion is the Sequence before the Gospel on Corpus Christi. The last two verses comprise the well known Bone pastor, panis vere.

LAUDA Sion Salvatorem,
lauda ducem et pastorem,
in hymnis et canticis.
Quantum potes, tantum aude:
quia maior omni laude,
nec laudare sufficis.
ZION, to Thy Savior sing,
to Thy Shepherd and Thy King!
Let the air with praises ring!
All thou canst, proclaim with mirth,
far higher is His worth
than the glory words may wing.
Laudis thema specialis,
panis vivus et vitalis
hodie proponitur.
Quem in sacrae mensa cenae,
turbae fratrum duodenae
datum non ambigitur.
Lo! before our eyes and living
is the Sacred Bread life-giving,
theme of canticle and hymn.
We profess this Bread from heaven
to the Twelve by Christ was given,
for our faith rest firm in Him.
Sit laus plena, sit sonora,
sit iucunda, sit decora
mentis iubilatio.
Dies enim solemnis agitur,
in qua mensae prima recolitur
huius institutio.
Let us form a joyful chorus,
may our lauds ascend sonorous,
bursting from each loving breast.
For we solemnly record
how the Table of the Lord
with the Lamb's own gift was blest.
In hac mensa novi Regis,
novum Pascha novae legis,
phase vetus terminat.
Vetustatem novitas,
umbram fugat veritas,
noctem lux eliminat.
On this altar of the King
this new Paschal Offering
brings an end to ancient rite.
Shadows flee that truth may stay,
oldness to the new gives way,
and the night's darkness to the light.
Quod in coena Christus gessit,
faciendum hoc expressit
in sui memoriam.
Docti sacris institutis,
panem, vinum in salutis
consecramus hostiam.
What at Supper Christ completed
He ordained to be repeated,
in His memory Divine.
Wherefore now, with adoration,
we, the Host of our salvation,
consecrate from bread and wine.
Dogma datur christianis,
quod in carnem transit panis,
et vinum in sanguinem.
Quod non capis, quod non vides,
animosa firmat fides,
praeter rerum ordinem.
Words a nature's course derange,
that in Flesh the bread may change
and the wine in Christ's own Blood.
Does it pass thy comprehending?
Faith, the law of light transcending,
leaps to things not understood.
Sub diversis speciebus,
signis tantum, et non rebus,
latent res eximiae.
Caro cibus, sanguis potus:
manet tamen Christus totus
sub utraque specie.
Here beneath these signs are hidden
priceless things, to sense forbidden;
signs, not things, are all we see.
Flesh from bread, and Blood from wine,
yet is Christ in either sign,
all entire confessed to be.
A sumente non concisus,
non confractus, non divisus:
integer accipitur.
Sumit unus, sumunt mille:
quantum isti, tantum ille:
nec sumptus consumitur.
And whoe'er of Him partakes,
severs not, nor rends, nor breaks:
all entire, their Lord receive.
Whether one or thousand eat,
all receive the selfsame meat,
nor do less for others leave.
Sumunt boni, sumunt mali:
sorte tamen inaequali,
vitae vel interitus.
Mors est malis, vita bonis:
vide paris sumptionis
quam sit dispar exitus.
Both the wicked and the good
eat of this celestial Food:
but with ends how opposite!
With this most substantial Bread,
unto life or death they're fed,
in a difference infinite.
Fracto demum sacramento,
ne vacilles, sed memento
tantum esse sub fragmento,
quantum toto tegitur.
Nulla rei fit scissura:
signi tantum fit fractura,
qua nec status, nec statura
signati minuitur.
Nor a single doubt retain,
when they break the Host in twain,
but that in each part remain
what was in the whole before;
For the outward sign alone
may some change have undergone,
while the Signified stays one,
and the same forevermore.
Ecce Panis Angelorum,
factus cibus viatorum:
vere panis filiorum,
non mittendus canibus.
In figuris praesignatur,
cuм Isaac immolatur,
agnus Paschae deputatur,
datur manna patribus.
Hail! Bread of the Angels, broken,
for us pilgrims food, and token
of the promise by Christ spoken,
children's meat, to dogs denied!
Shown in Isaac's dedication,
in the Manna's preparation,
in the Paschal immolation,
in old types pre-signified.
Bone pastor, panis vere,
Iesu, nostri miserere:
Tu nos pasce, nos tuere,
Tu nos bona fac videre
in terra viventium.
Tu qui cuncta scis et vales,
qui nos pascis hic mortales:
tuos ibi commensales,
coheredes et sodales
fac sanctorum civium.
Amen. Alleluia.
Jesus, Shepherd mild and meek,
shield the poor, support the weak;
help all who Thy pardon sue,
placing all their trust in You:
fill them with Your healing grace!
Source of all we have or know,
feed and lead us here below.
grant that with Your Saints above,
sitting at the feast of love
we may see You face to face.
Amen. Alleluia.

Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANSIATION ?
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2018, 05:45:34 PM »
I must also point out:

Read and pay attention to Neil Obstat's responses to Cosmas in this thread.

Cosmas might have his heart in the right place, but he is mistaken about what "Transubstantiation" means. He is not a theologian, having never attended Seminary or learned Thomistic philosophy (substance and accident), so it's understandable that he is ignorant about this particular theological point. I'm sure he's not alone here.

I hope that he, and anyone else, reads Neil's posts for a clear and thorough explanation of the matter.

A small sample of Neil's excellent, theologically sound exposition of the topic:
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Gosh, you makin' me blush.  :-[  Are you really sure it's THAT good?!?
I mean, I thought it was OKAY, but "excellent theologically sound exposition?"
I'm honored. But I'll take it. Thank you, Matthew.
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Now I guess I have to try harder so as not to let things slide!!
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Is it too much to ask that the misspelled word in the thread title be corrected? It says transubstansiation. 
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Have to go now, have to move my car before there's a riot out there or whatever..........


Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANSIATION ?
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2018, 06:54:52 PM »
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I'd like to know what's going on here in other chapels because I know one doctor who says that no amount of gluten is okay.
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He says to be gluten free and to lose the effects due to gluten intolerance you have to remove ALL the gluten from your life.
The pet food in the house must be gluten free, etc., etc., etc.
This doctor is a quack.

Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANSIATION ?
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2018, 08:35:14 PM »
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This doctor is a quack.
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Which doctor? 

Re: Does SSPX still believe in TRANSUBSTANSIATION ?
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2018, 08:32:00 AM »
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Which doctor?
The one doctor you know.