Everyone is stuck at a local level, with no Internet to even share stories.

Massive, liberalizing changes are happening everywhere. In some places more than others.

"I heard that in San Francisco they starting having GIRLS serve at the altar. But I only heard that from my uncle who lives there; maybe he was mistaken. Until I get confirmation from a reliable source I can't use this as evidence that there's a crisis in the Church."

And by the time the proof mounted, most people had been indoctrinated into the new religion, were used to the changes, the shock had worn off, the rationalizations from the priests had sunk in, and few wanted to go along with the Trad chapels that hastily (and too late) were set up.

Isn't that a fundamental flaw in a situation like this? We each live in just ONE place, and everywhere else is unknown except by the testimony of others -- a.k.a. "secondhand information" or "hearsay".

It might be true that we don't have proof of, say, the contents of Fr. Pfluger's latest conference. But I'll certainly be putting it ALL together in one pile, and collectively giving the LOT of it some serious credence!

You can dismiss this, and this, and this, and this, and this... but not ALL of it together!

Just like you can avoid this sin, and this sin, and this sin, but without a special grace from God you can't avoid ALL venial sin.

We were there and saw the NO play out before our very eyes, in one of the major metropolitan areas, but never heard "boo" about anyone keeping Tradition alive. We were told that the Bishop said this is how we are doing things now, and we were never raised to question the hierarchy. If people knew and snuck off to some Traditional venue somewhere, they never said a word about it to others (perhaps only their friends or relatives). Granted, we were new to the area, so we never heard anything from anyone and had no idea anyone was keeping Tradition alive until about four years ago.

Do you suppose Vatican II changes went down this way?


Everyone is stuck at a local level, with no Internet to even share stories.

Massive, liberalizing changes are happening everywhere.  In some places more than others.

What I remember is, there was scattered coverage, but don't forget:  that was a very turbulent time in society worldwide.  Families were being torn to pieces with the drug and promiscuity subculture inherent in the Rock 'n Roll Revolution.  It endures to this day.  I know trads who can't see any problem with the Beatles, and the Mamas and the Papas, and (somewhat reluctantly) the Rolling Stones.  But when I ask about Bob Dylan, Led Zeppelin, The Who, Kiss, Marilyn Manson and Alice Cooper, suddenly the tables turn.  But wait -- why is Bob Dylan among the "bad guys?"  

Answer:  because he was a flaming Liberal.  Well, what do you call Fr. Pfluger?  

"I heard that in San Francisco they starting having GIRLS serve at the altar. But I only heard that from my uncle who lives there; maybe he was mistaken. Until I get confirmation from a reliable source I can't use this as evidence that there's a crisis in the Church."

And by the time the proof mounted, most people had been indoctrinated into the new religion, were used to the changes, the shock had worn off, the rationalizations from the priests had sunk in, and few wanted to go along with the Trad chapels that hastily (and too late) were set up.

I think this is a fair assessment.  Far too many who had been put off by the changes were not aware of the brave few who were standing up for Tradition, and a lot more simply walked out, never to look back, and abandoned religion or else went to Protestantism or whatever.  The Moonies and other cults picked up lost Catholics by the truckload.

Isn't that a fundamental flaw in a situation like this? We each live in just ONE place, and everywhere else is unknown except by the testimony of others -- a.k.a. "secondhand information" or "hearsay".

It's only "hearsay" if you refuse to believe what common sense tells you.  I've seen intelligent people buy into +F's denouncement of the Internet as an evil thing and not to be believed, but that's just ridiculous.  When has anyone who goes to meet someone for the first time, with whom they had been exchanging emails for months, suddenly find it was all a clever charade?  Certainly there have been one or two instances of fraud here and there, but it's not the norm.  

Such incredulous deniers like to point at Traditio.com as the kingpin of deception.  Then they leap to the presumption that EVERYTHING on the Internet is therefore not trustworthy.  Well then why did Benedict XVI throw in the towel lamenting that he failed to recognize the value of Internet information in the Holy See?  (That's literally in his letter to his "Brothers in the Episcopal Ministry" in which he explains the lifting of the so-called Excoms.)  

We each live in just ONE place, yeah, but not really.  Some of us move around, and a lot of us travel, and we all know people in diverse parts of the world.  So we're not really in a 'box' all THAT much.  

But our willingness to swallow hook line and sinker when +F tells us about what's going on in the world is equally a bit TWISTED.  

"You must just be anti-Fellay."  That's the voice of the hypnotized pew-sitter, and also the FRIEND of such, who is hypnotized as it were by remote association.  

This is more like something to do with Diabolical Disorientation, than it is "secondhand information" or "hearsay."

It might be true that we don't have proof of, say, the contents of Fr. Pfluger's latest conference.  But I'll certainly be putting it ALL together in one pile, and collectively giving the LOT of it some serious credence!

You can dismiss this, and this, and this, and this, and this... but not ALL of it together!

Just like you can avoid this sin, and this sin, and this sin, but without a special grace from God you can't avoid ALL venial sin.

There is nothing new under the sun.  The devil has been there, done that.  Vat.II was not a first time experiment for the devil.  Corruption is his middle name.  The same successful' techniques that worked then will work now, because human nature doesn't change and the devil is an expert on human nature.

It's up to us to recognize the successful techniques.  It seems to me that if Tradition just refuses to die, as the SSPX founders in the deep blue sea, then the devil will find a way to stir up the world again, with another wave of chaos, so as to beat the lingering trads into submission.  

Maybe it will be WWIII, or perhaps it will be the destruction of Rome and the assassination of both "bishops in white" -- as they seem to be comfortable with that kind of image (they won't dare call themselves that, though, will they?) because they don't want to be called "pope" and they don't want to stop wearing white.

But there is going to be something that shakes us up.  And Fr. Pfluger is hoping that his insistence that nobody thinks about it will be enough to make sure it doesn't happen.  To him, groupthink has power, apparently.  I haven't seen him say that's what is meant by "faith to move mountains," but I wouldn't be at all shocked to hear he would have said so.

never mind

That's another good idea you've had, B from A.


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The day will come, and it may already be here, when our grandchildren will be asking us how this could have happened.  We were there, and we should be able to tell the story.  Will they believe us?  


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