Author Topic: Orthodox Priest One Step From Resistance  (Read 3144 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: Orthodox Priest One Step From Resistance
« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2019, 01:35:03 PM »
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  • I will go with St. Pius X on this one.

    If Protestant, Mormon, Witness, Adventist, Muslim asked me if they can be saved, I will respond, "No, you will be damned." The nuances of Augustine and Pius IX are too much to discuss with those outside the Church. The only proper thing to say is they will be damned.

    How can anyone of them in America say I am invincibly ignorant of the Catholic Church and its teachings? Give me a break. There is a Catholic Church practically in every town in America. So for all practical purposes they have no excuses as they flush their unused and out of date contraceptives down the toilet.
    It could be that my mental wiring tends to take statements literally.

    But assuming that Augustine and Pius IX did in fact nuance this (I'm leaving aside for the moment the Feeneyite arguments that say that such nuances don't exist, since you seem to disagree with them) why would it be wrong to instead say something like "You'd most likely be damned?" 


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Orthodox Priest One Step From Resistance
    « Reply #61 on: April 27, 2019, 01:55:06 PM »
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  • But assuming that Augustine and Pius IX did in fact nuance this 
    St. Augustine never "nuanced" this. He is very clear that no one is saved unless they are Catholics in a state of grace.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Orthodox Priest One Step From Resistance
    « Reply #62 on: April 27, 2019, 02:48:16 PM »
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  • St. Augustine never "nuanced" this. He is very clear that no one is saved unless they are Catholics in a state of grace.
    What am I missing here?

    //[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]1. The[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]Apostle Paul[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]has said:[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject, knowing that he that is such is subverted and sins, being condemned of himself.[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]Titus 3:10-11[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]But though the doctrine which men hold be false and perverse, if they do not maintain it with passionate obstinacy, especially when they have not devised it by the rashness of their own presumption, but have accepted it from[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]parents[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]who had been misguided and had fallen into[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]error[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)], and if they are with anxiety seeking the[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]truth[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)], and are prepared to be set right when they have found it, such men are not to be counted[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]heretics[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]. Were it not that I[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]believe[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]you to be such, perhaps I would not write to you. And yet even in the case of a[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]heretic[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)], however puffed up with odious conceit, and insane through the obstinacy of his[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]wicked[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]resistance to[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]truth[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)], although we warn others to avoid him, so that he may not deceive the weak and inexperienced, we do not refuse to strive by every means in our power for his correction. On this ground I wrote even to some of the chief of the[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]Donatists[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)], not indeed letters of communion, which on account of their perversity they have long ceased to receive from the undivided[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]Catholic[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]Church[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]which is spread throughout the world, but letters of a private kind, such as we may send even to[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]pagans[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]. These letters, however, though they have sometimes read them, they have not been willing, or perhaps it is more probable, have not been able, to answer. In these cases, it seems to me that I have discharged the obligation laid on me by that[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]love[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]which the[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]Holy Spirit[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]teaches us to render, not only to our own, but to all, saying by the apostle:[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]The Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men.[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]1 Thessalonians 3:12[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]In another place we are warned that those who are of a different opinion from us must be corrected with meekness,[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]if God perhaps will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth, and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]2 Timothy 2:25-26
    [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]2. I have said these things by way of preface, lest any one should think, because you are not of our communion, that I have been influenced by forwardness rather than consideration in sending this letter, and in desiring thus to confer with you regarding the welfare of the soul; though I believe that, if I were writing to you about an affair of property, or the settlement of some dispute about money, no one would find fault with me. So precious is this world in the esteem of men, and so small is the value which they set upon themselves! This letter, therefore, shall be a witness in my vindication at the bar of God, who knows the spirit in which I write, and who has said: Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the sons of God. Matthew 5:9[/color]
    //

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102043.htm

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Orthodox Priest One Step From Resistance
    « Reply #63 on: April 27, 2019, 09:54:09 PM »
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  • I have no idea why my attempts to quote worked so badly, but at any rate, I was quoting the first two paragraphs of Chapter 1 at the link I posted.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Orthodox Priest One Step From Resistance
    « Reply #64 on: April 27, 2019, 10:15:06 PM »
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  • This is how I did it: Copied and pasted to a word document, clicked on "keep text only", then copied and pasted here:

    To Glorius, Eleusius, the Two Felixes, Grammaticus, and All Others to Whom This May Be Acceptable, My Lords Most Beloved and Worthy of Praise, Augustine Sends Greeting.
     
    Chapter 1

    1. The Apostle Paul has said: A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject, knowing that he that is such is subverted and sins, being condemned of himself. Titus 3:10-11 But though the doctrine which men hold be false and perverse, if they do not maintain it with passionate obstinacy, especially when they have not devised it by the rashness of their own presumption, but have accepted it from parents who had been misguided and had fallen into error, and if they are with anxiety seeking the truth, and are prepared to be set right when they have found it, such men are not to be counted heretics. Were it not that I believe you to be such, perhaps I would not write to you. And yet even in the case of a heretic, however puffed up with odious conceit, and insane through the obstinacy of his wicked resistance to truth, although we warn others to avoid him, so that he may not deceive the weak and inexperienced, we do not refuse to strive by every means in our power for his correction. On this ground I wrote even to some of the chief of the Donatists, not indeed letters of communion, which on account of their perversity they have long ceased to receive from the undivided Catholic Church which is spread throughout the world, but letters of a private kind, such as we may send even to pagans. These letters, however, though they have sometimes read them, they have not been willing, or perhaps it is more probable, have not been able, to answer. In these cases, it seems to me that I have discharged the obligation laid on me by that love which the Holy Spirit teaches us to render, not only to our own, but to all, saying by the apostle: The Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men. 1 Thessalonians 3:12 In another place we are warned that those who are of a different opinion from us must be corrected with meekness, if God perhaps will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth, and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 2 Timothy 2:25-26
    .
    2. I have said these things by way of preface, lest any one should think, because you are not of our communion, that I have been influenced by forwardness rather than consideration in sending this letter, and in desiring thus to confer with you regarding the welfare of the soul; though I believe that, if I were writing to you about an affair of property, or the settlement of some dispute about money, no one would find fault with me. So precious is this world in the esteem of men, and so small is the value which they set upon themselves! This letter, therefore, shall be a witness in my vindication at the bar of God, who knows the spirit in which I write, and who has said: Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the sons of God. Matthew 5:9



    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Orthodox Priest One Step From Resistance
    « Reply #65 on: April 28, 2019, 03:41:16 PM »
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  • I realize Augustine isn't the Magisterium, so perhaps he's wrong.  But unless there's something I'm missing about the historical context, I don't see how a Donatist would be in a fundamentally different category than either a Protestant or an Eastern Orthodox person.  It seems like Augustine believes a person who is born in such a community, who is anxiously searching for the truth, is not to be regarded as a heretic.  Perhaps you could argue that in our day, with the amount of information that's available, such a person would inevitably come to the Catholic Faith if he's of good will, but that seems like the sort of thing you could only defend as likely, not definitively prove (ie. we could imagine a person who fits into the category Augustine describes, even if one might think that in actuality such persons are very rare today.)  

    The only way out I see is "Florence trumps Augustine", which I'd agree with if the two conflicted, but it seems like Florence says all those outside the Catholic Church is damned, whereas Augustine here suggests that some who appear to be outside the Church may in actuality be inside of it (because they were born in error and are diligently striving for the truth, even though they haven't found it yet.)  Which to me seems logically separate issues, though I grant you have to think about it for a bit (I will grant that your average non Catholic who reads Florence sees it as teaching Feeneyism, and they tend to see Vatican II as teaching universal salvation.)

    What am I missing here?

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Orthodox Priest One Step From Resistance
    « Reply #66 on: April 28, 2019, 09:42:38 PM »
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  • Quote
    "if God perhaps will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth, and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 2 Timothy 2:25-26" (St. Augustine)
    Where do you see in this salvation for the heretic because of invincible ignorance? Notice he says that "if God perhaps give the repentance" , for it is God's Grace and God's Grace only that converts. If they do not convert, it is because they reject God's Grace, PERIOD!

    Notice he also says "they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will". Someone who dies in the snare of the devil and a captive, goes to hell.

    I do not see anything in what St. Augustine wrote other than he, as a priest, is trying to convert heretics who are in the grip of the devil. Your modern day Protestant is also in the snare of the devil and a captive, because he is rejecting God's Grace.

    Remember, God's Grace can turn boulders into sons of Abraham, he can convert anyone with His Grace. If a person does not convert, it is because they rejected God's Grace.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Orthodox Priest One Step From Resistance
    « Reply #67 on: April 28, 2019, 10:00:25 PM »
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  • //1. The Apostle Paul has said: A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject, knowing that he that is such is subverted and sins, being condemned of himself. Titus 3:10-11 But though the doctrine which men hold be false and perverse, if they do not maintain it with passionate obstinacy, especially when they have not devised it by the rashness of their own presumption, but have accepted it from parents who had been misguided and had fallen into error, and if they are with anxiety seeking the truth, and are prepared to be set right when they have found it, such men are not to be counted heretics.//

    The bolded section disagrees with Last Tradhican, or at least it seems to me that it does.  The idea that people in heretical sects, who were born into such sects, and are earnestly seeking the truth, shouldn't be counted as heretics, seems objectionable from his vantage point.  Where am I wrong?


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Orthodox Priest One Step From Resistance
    « Reply #68 on: April 28, 2019, 11:09:28 PM »
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  • Only those very few non-catholics, who as it says above, are “anxiously seeking the truth” are not heretics.  It’s hard to tell who that is, exteriorly, but God knows the hearts of these people, as He said of them in the parable of the Good Shepherd:  

    And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.  (John 10:16)

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Orthodox Priest One Step From Resistance
    « Reply #69 on: April 30, 2019, 10:36:21 AM »
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  • Only those very few non-catholics, who as it says above, are “anxiously seeking the truth” are not heretics.  It’s hard to tell who that is, exteriorly, but God knows the hearts of these people, as He said of them in the parable of the Good Shepherd:  

    And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.  (John 10:16)
    There's a huge difference in principle between "few" and "none" though.  I agree that we can't tell who they are, at least not with any kind of certainty.  Thus I tell Protestants, when they ask, that I think they're in a dangerous position.  Some people here seem to think that's not strong enough, that I need to tell them they'd certainly be damned unless they convert.  That's what I'm trying to get a handle on.  If those people are right, I want to amend my practice accordingly.  

     

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