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Author Topic: Discussions or Negotiations?  (Read 2887 times)

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Offline John Grace

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Discussions or Negotiations?
« on: August 28, 2013, 12:12:08 PM »
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  • I was always of the understanding the SSPX were in discussions with Rome.Fr Morgan, who showed himself to be a bully towards an elderly lady uses the word "negotiations"

    After his conduct it was the last time I will defend Fr Morgan.

    http://www.sspx.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=441:statement-by-fr-paul-morgan-district-superior-concerning-qthe-recusantq
    Quote
    "The Recusant"

    "The Recusant" presents itself ‘as an unofficial SSPX newsletter, fighting a guerrilla war for the soul of Tradition.’ This ‘guerrilla war’ is now coming out into the open in that a signed ‘Letter of Entreaty’ has appeared on its website which attacks the Society in no uncertain terms. Addressed to ‘Fr Morgan and the Clergy of the British District,’ the open letter, dated 21st May 2013, accuses the Society of having deviated from its essential mission of fidelity to Catholic Tradition and opposition to Modernism due to the betrayal of its liberal leadership!

    Ignoring the fact that there has not been a false deal with modernist Rome, and in spite of Bishop Fellay's public withdrawal in Ireland of the questionable April 2012 ‘Doctrinal Declaration,’ the dialectical letter pretends there is no option for us now but to show true leadership and to follow its proponents in seceding from the Society!

    In recent months, such as in his last Letter to Friends and Benefactors and his recent conferences in Ireland, Bishop Fellay has clarified that he does not accept the legitimacy of the New Mass nor the errors of Vatican II nor the ‘hermeneutic of continuity’ which pretends to reconcile them with Tradition.

    With regard to the ‘Letter of Entreaty,’ Bishop Fellay has stated that "the paragraph which claims to prove everything, that is of 'my April (2012) declaration,' is wrong and false from the beginning to end; there is not one phrase which presents correctly what I have written…Poor people who are so misled by their mistrust." Hence, rather than boycotting the Superior General’s forthcoming visit, I would urge the concerned individuals in particular to attend Bishop Fellay’s conferences and to consider carefully what he has to say.

    Whilst acknowledging the serious issues surrounding the Society’s negotiations with the Roman authorities, it is excessive and indeed offensive to claim ‘that the SSPX is now a sinking ship’ which is beyond repair. Far from abandoning the legacy of Archbishop Lefebvre, we need staunch clergy and faithful to help keep the Society faithful to its providential mission, for the glory of God and the salvation of souls.

    May the Blessed Virgin Mary, Queen of the Clergy, pray for us!

    Saint Pius X, pray for us!

     

    Father Paul Morgan

    District Superior

    Saint Augustine of Canterbury, 28th


     


    Offline John Grace

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    Discussions or Negotiations?
    « Reply #1 on: August 28, 2013, 12:21:17 PM »
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  • I am glad to have parted from the very dishonest SSPX. I realise Fr Morgan has to be seen to be on the side of Bishop Fellay.



    Offline PAT317

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    Discussions or Negotiations?
    « Reply #2 on: August 28, 2013, 12:24:50 PM »
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  • I remember in the early 2000s when these "discussions" got going (publicly, formally), Bishop Fellay used to make a big point about how they were "discussions", NOT negotiations.  
    I'm sure someone could find some old +F quotes where he emphasized that distinction.

    I think now that it's become obvious to all that they are negotiations, the SSPX leaders no longer worry about the distinction.  

    Offline John Grace

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    Discussions or Negotiations?
    « Reply #3 on: August 28, 2013, 12:25:41 PM »
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  • Fr Fabrice Loschi frequently spoke about the "discussions".

    Offline John Grace

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    Discussions or Negotiations?
    « Reply #4 on: August 28, 2013, 12:27:54 PM »
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  • Quote from: PAT317
    I remember in the early 2000s when these "discussions" got going (publicly, formally), Bishop Fellay used to make a big point about how they were "discussions", NOT negotiations.  
    I'm sure someone could find some old +F quotes where he emphasized that distinction.

    I think now that it's become obvious to all that they are negotiations, the SSPX leaders no longer worry about the distinction.  


    In written form, the District Superior of Britain and Ireland states clearly the word "negotiations".

    Fr Morgan was only meant to be District Superior of Ireland on a temporary basis. Another lie.


    Offline John Grace

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    Discussions or Negotiations?
    « Reply #5 on: August 28, 2013, 12:31:23 PM »
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  • Quote
    I think now that it's become obvious to all that they are negotiations, the SSPX leaders no longer worry about the distinction.
     

    They used the rosary to distract laity and softened them up.

    Offline John Grace

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    Discussions or Negotiations?
    « Reply #6 on: August 28, 2013, 12:42:14 PM »
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  • Negotiations is the more accurate term.

    Offline John Grace

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    « Reply #7 on: August 28, 2013, 12:46:52 PM »
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  • Fr Morgan is being honest as he uses the accurate word "Negotiations".


    Offline Mea Culpa

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    « Reply #8 on: August 28, 2013, 03:32:57 PM »
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  • It really doesn't matter whether the neoSSPX label it as "discussions or negotiations" in these talks with modernists Rome. If Bp. Fellay was a true fighter of the Faith, he only simply had to tell Rome (one time) to convert back to the True Faith and condemn Vatican II. No other discussions, negotiations, compromises, talks etc....are ever needed.


    “And we must not waver for one moment either in not being with those who are in the process of betraying us. Some people are always admiring the grass in the neighbor’s field. Instead of looking to their friends, to the Church’s defenders, to those fighting on the battlefield, they look to our enemies on the other side. “After all, we must be charitable, we must be kind, we must not be divisive, after all, they are celebrating the Tridentine Mass, they are not as bad as everyone says” —but THEY ARE BETRAYING US —betraying us! They are shaking hands with the Church’s destroyers. They are shaking hands with people holding modernist and liberal ideas condemned by the Church. So they are doing the devil’s work.” (Archbishop Lefebvre, Address to his priests, Econe, 1990)


    Offline B from A

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    Discussions or Negotiations?
    « Reply #9 on: August 28, 2013, 03:55:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mea Culpa
    ... If Bp. Fellay was a true fighter of the Faith, he only simply had to tell Rome (one time) to convert back to the True Faith and condemn Vatican II. No other discussions, negotiations, compromises, talks etc....are ever needed.


    “And we must not waver for one moment either in not being with those who are in the process of betraying us. Some people are always admiring the grass in the neighbor’s field. Instead of looking to their friends, to the Church’s defenders, to those fighting on the battlefield, they look to our enemies on the other side. “After all, we must be charitable, we must be kind, we must not be divisive, after all, they are celebrating the Tridentine Mass, they are not as bad as everyone says” —but THEY ARE BETRAYING US —betraying us! They are shaking hands with the Church’s destroyers. They are shaking hands with people holding modernist and liberal ideas condemned by the Church. So they are doing the devil’s work.” (Archbishop Lefebvre, Address to his priests, Econe, 1990)



    Yes, he could have just memorized these words of Archbishop Lefebvre to say to Rome:

    Quote
    Interviewer: ...In your last letter to the Holy Father2 you declared that you were waiting for a more propitious time for the return of Rome to Tradition. What do you think of a possible re-opening of the dialogue with Rome?

    Archbishop Lefebvre: We do not have the same outlook on a reconciliation. Cardinal Ratzinger sees it as reducing us, bringing us back to Vatican II. We see it as a return of Rome to Tradition. We don’t agree; it is a dialogue of death. I can’t speak much of the future, mine is behind me, but if I live a little while, supposing that Rome calls for a renewed dialogue, then, I will put conditions. I shall not accept being in the position where I was put during the dialogue. No more.

    I will place the discussion at the doctrinal level: “Do you agree with the great encyclicals of all the popes who preceded you? Do you agree with Quanta Cura of Pius IX, Immortale Dei and Libertas of Leo XIII, Pascendi Gregis of Pius X, Quas Primas of Pius XI, Humani Generis of Pius XII? Are you in full communion with these Popes and their teachings? Do you still accept the entire Anti-Modernist Oath? Are you in favor of the social reign of Our Lord Jesus Christ? If you do not accept the doctrine of your predecessors, it is useless to talk! As long as you do not accept the correction of the Council, in consideration of the doctrine of these Popes, your predecessors, no dialogue is possible. It is useless.”


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Discussions or Negotiations?
    « Reply #10 on: August 29, 2013, 11:45:11 PM »
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  • .

    After all this time, John Grace, I am pleased to see that you are now
    willing to divulge the issue over which Fr. Morgan was so ungentlemanly
    like so as to bully an elderly Irish lady.  The Irish have been too long
    subject to such condescension, and this raised it to a new level.  A
    priest mistreating a lady should never be countenanced!  She should
    be to him as the image of Our Blessed Mother, and would he treat
    her so?  One must pause to wonder!  But now we see it was over
    her use of "negotiations" -- what a poor excuse.  But telling,
    nonetheless.  This touched a sore spot.  Let's have a look at it!!!!



    Quote from: John Grace
    I was always of the understanding the SSPX were in discussions with Rome.Fr Morgan, who showed himself to be a bully towards an elderly lady uses the word "negotiations"

    After his conduct it was the last time I will defend Fr Morgan.

    http://www.sspx.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=441:statement-by-fr-paul-morgan-district-superior-concerning-qthe-recusantq
    Quote
    "The Recusant"

    "The Recusant" presents itself ‘as an unofficial SSPX newsletter, fighting a guerrilla war for the soul of Tradition.’ This ‘guerrilla war’ is now coming out into the open in that a signed ‘Letter of Entreaty’ has appeared on its website which attacks the Society in no uncertain terms. Addressed to ‘Fr Morgan and the Clergy of the British District,’ the open letter, dated 21st May 2013, accuses the Society of having deviated from its essential mission of fidelity to Catholic Tradition and opposition to Modernism due to the betrayal of its liberal leadership!

    Ignoring the fact that there has not been a false deal with modernist Rome, and in spite of Bishop Fellay's public withdrawal in Ireland of the questionable April 2012 ‘Doctrinal Declaration,’ the dialectical letter pretends there is no option for us now but to show true leadership and to follow its proponents in seceding from the Society!

    In recent months, such as in his last Letter to Friends and Benefactors and his recent conferences in Ireland, Bishop Fellay has clarified that he does not accept the legitimacy of the New Mass nor the errors of Vatican II nor the ‘hermeneutic of continuity’ which pretends to reconcile them with Tradition.

    With regard to the ‘Letter of Entreaty,’ Bishop Fellay has stated that "the paragraph which claims to prove everything, that is of 'my April (2012) declaration,' is wrong and false from the beginning to end; there is not one phrase which presents correctly what I have written…Poor people who are so misled by their mistrust." Hence, rather than boycotting the Superior General’s forthcoming visit, I would urge the concerned individuals in particular to attend Bishop Fellay’s conferences and to consider carefully what he has to say.

    Whilst acknowledging the serious issues surrounding the Society’s negotiations with the Roman authorities, it is excessive and indeed offensive to claim ‘that the SSPX is now a sinking ship’ which is beyond repair. Far from abandoning the legacy of Archbishop Lefebvre, we need staunch clergy and faithful to help keep the Society faithful to its providential mission, for the glory of God and the salvation of souls.

    May the Blessed Virgin Mary, Queen of the Clergy, pray for us!

    Saint Pius X, pray for us!

     

    Father Paul Morgan

    District Superior

    Saint Augustine of Canterbury, 28th


     



    No mention of this Letter of the District Superior of the British
    District (pg. 10 of TheRecusant Issue 8) would be complete
    without a copy of the Letter of Entreaty to which it refers
    (found on pp. 7-9 of #8) and also the response from the subject
    entity, TheRecusant (page 11 of #8), which the Editor (Ed.)
    leaves up to Fr. Pfeiffer:  



    (Page 11 of TheRecusant issue #8):
    Fr. Pfeiffer responds to the response!

    During Questions and Answers at the ‘Crisis in the SSPX’ Conference,
    a question was asked about Fr. Morgan’s statement in response to
    the Letter of Entreaty and in particular the claim that Bishop Fellay
    has “publicly withdrawn” his April 2012 Doctrinal Declaration. Below
    is a transcript of Fr. Pfeiffer’s response.


    Fr. Pfeiffer:

    OK, very simple. A written, clear, signed, sealed and delivered, official
    docuмent is not retracted unless there is another written, signed,
    sealed retracting docuмent which explains what it retracts.

    For instance:  Do we reject every element in that Doctrinal Declaration
    of April [15th] 2012?  The answer is no!  Part 1 says that we accept
    the Pope as head of the body of Bishops.  We fully accept that, there’s
    nothing wrong with that.  However, it has heresies in it.  So when you
    retract it, you can’t just retract the whole thing because then you
    retract the parts that are true as well as the errors.

    And, since it is an official docuмent, it is not retracted until it is
    officially retracted, you see. So when you have a private conversation*
    with people in Ireland,
    and we don’t have access to whatever he
    said there easily, and it’s not an official communication of the Society
    anyway - that’s not a retraction.  ‘Retraction’ means that he will speak
    to the Pope and he will withdraw the Doctrinal Declaration.  Now
    remember, it’s not a “deal”, it’s a ‘doctrinal declaration,’ therefore the
    doctrine has to be retracted, and he has to retract it in his own
    language, just like he gave it in his own language, with the utmost
    clarity.

    And furthermore, since it is the most serious crime which can be
    committed by a Catholic priest which is to express heresy,
    he has
    to show his repentance by doing two things.  Number 1, he has to
    resign.  He must resign.  There is no other option.  Number 2, he
    must undergo a trial.  And in this trial he must demonstrate that he
    has retracted, and he must prove that he has retracted in his heart
    the opinions he has expressed to Rome.  That has to be done, or
    else it doesn’t count.  I mean I could understand how someone
    who’s never been in the world or never worked in business or has
    never dealt with other human beings in the real world could accept
    that kind of ‘retraction’.  You have to have a real retraction, a true
    retraction, and ‘withdrawal’ does not mean retraction anyway.  

    Furthermore, Fr. Morgan says there that it is a “questionable”
    docuмent. You’ve read the April 2012 Doctrinal Declaration.  It’s
    not questionable, it’s heretical!
    It’s not questionable. “Questionable”
    would mean that it could lend itself to two different interpretations,
    one Catholic the other heretical.  It’s not a “questionable docuмent”.

    And why are the priests like Fr. Morgan and the other priests trying
    to hold things together the best they can?  They have to say “it’s
    questionable” even though they know it’s not questionable, because
    otherwise they’re in trouble, do you see what I mean?

    That’s why I asked my own brother [Fr. Timothy Pfeiffer], “Is the
    new Mass legitimately promulgated?”  He said:  “It’s a bad
    docuмent.”  I said to him, “I didn’t ask you whether it’s a good
    docuмent or a bad docuмent.  I asked you:  ‘Is the New Mass
    legitimately promulgated, yes or no?’ ”

    He said:  “It’s a bad docuмent.”  He would not answer the question,
    because if he did, he would be disagreeing with Bishop Fellay, and
    that’s the trouble.



    *"...a private conversation with people in Ireland" refers to a mini-
    conference that +Fellay allegedly gave in Ireland some months ago,
    in which he claims to have "retracted" his abominable AFD.  But no
    one has ever produced any recording of that mini-conference in some
    remote and unannounced private location in Ireland, nor has there
    ever been any written transcript of what +Fellay claims to have said
    then.  It is in FACT, no more than an INTERNET RUMOUR, a thing
    that +Fellay himself has vehemently urged everyone to IGNORE.

    Okay, then we should be making him happy if we ignore it.  

    And don't forget, every single time you hear some Accordista refer
    to it as if it's important, confront him immediately with the accusation
    that he is transgressing against The Great One's own command for
    he is believing and REPEATING an Internet rumour!   He won't have
    a single complaint or ELSE you can then use this opportunity to go
    through the list of things that could be Internet rumours but you
    can't be sure, because +Fellay has never once exemplified any of
    his ambiguous accusations of so-called Internet rumour with anything
    specific!   This fact Ed of TheRecusant furthermore mentions in Issue
    9 on page 5, thusly:

    Quote

    ...Given that he sent the docuмent [his AFD] on our behalf, has he
    ever said why he tried to keep its contents secret [Ed. had already
    proved that case on page 4]?  Has anyone else noticed that whenever
    he complains of having been misrepresented or misunderstood, The
    Leader always forgets to go into detail or to give examples?  Is that
    not a little odd?



    In the next paragraph, Ed. assures the reader that he has no ax to
    grind against +F and that when the SSPX goes down, it won't be due
    to +F alone, but rather to the compliance of SSPX clergy and Faithful
    who have facilitated his agenda of subversion of the Society.  Without
    their help he could never have done it alone.  

    This is what the Resistance is for, to properly and justly oppose the
    subversive agenda of the Menzingen-denizens.  


    And here, to top it off, Fr. Morgan ABUSES an Irish lady when she has
    the courage to ask a question -- she is strong-armed into submission!
    Fr. Morgan thereby facilitates that demise of the Society with his unjust
    repression of the Faithful.  

    Most alarming, and most unforgivable!  



    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Discussions or Negotiations?
    « Reply #11 on: August 30, 2013, 12:11:36 AM »
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    Hence, rather than boycotting the Superior General’s forthcoming visit, I would urge the concerned individuals in particular to attend Bishop Fellay’s conferences and to consider carefully what he has to say.


    It seems hardly anyone took his advice, since the
    majority of the chairs set out for the audience remained
    empty at The Great One's little diversionary sessions, as
    well it should be.  Let them put sound bytes of explanation
    in the collection basket, too, perhaps using The Great One's
    own words.  

    Things are looking up!  


    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline John Grace

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    « Reply #12 on: August 30, 2013, 07:01:31 AM »
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    But no
    one has ever produced any recording of that mini-conference in some
    remote and unannounced private location in Ireland, nor has there
    ever been any written transcript of what +Fellay claims to have said
    then.


    I logged on primarily to clarify a point about Fr M preventing a question being asked. His use of the word "negotiations" is a separate matter.

    I found the above quotation interesting and 'Cassini' or others have never shared  the audio of a private meeting between supporters of Bishop Fellay and the great leader himself.

    Why has a written transcript not been made available?

    Offline John Grace

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    « Reply #13 on: August 30, 2013, 07:07:56 AM »
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    Furthermore, Fr. Morgan says there that it is a “questionable”
    docuмent. You’ve read the April 2012 Doctrinal Declaration.  It’s
    not questionable, it’s heretical! It’s not questionable.


    This was discussed at length at the 'Crisis in the SSPX' conference in London.  I have no issue with receiving criticism from friends of Fr Morgan but reject the allegation of calumny. "Internet rumour" and "calumny" are the words used Church of Bishop Fellay.

    I'm sorry to say I have no real interest in these matters now. All I was trying to say is Fr M confirms what many knew all along. That the "discussions" were indeed  "negotiations".

    I merely made the point this even features on the official website of the SSPX in Britain.

    Offline John Grace

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    « Reply #14 on: August 30, 2013, 07:10:34 AM »
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  • Quote from: John Grace
    Quote
    But no
    one has ever produced any recording of that mini-conference in some
    remote and unannounced private location in Ireland, nor has there
    ever been any written transcript of what +Fellay claims to have said
    then.


    I logged on primarily to clarify a point about Fr M preventing a question being asked. His use of the word "negotiations" is a *separate matter.

    I found the above quotation interesting and 'Cassini' or others have never shared  the audio of a private meeting between supporters of Bishop Fellay and the great leader himself.

    Why has a written transcript not been made available?


    *separate to issue of preventing a question.