Author Topic: Discerning proper absolutions in SSPX Confessionals (Read 4858 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #15 on:** June 26, 2023, 07:59:22 PM »

Quote from: Giovanni Berto on June 26, 2023, 05:28:26 PM

I didn't understand the purpose of the thread either.

Anyway, what is the essencial formula of absolution?

This:

"...ego te absolvo a peccatis tuis, in nomine Patris, et Filii + et Spiritus Sancti. Amen."

?

I believe "te absolve a peccatis tuis" would technically suffice, even without the rest, but, yes, that's the essential form.

cath4ever · « **Reply #16 on:** June 26, 2023, 08:16:52 PM »

Quote from: Incredulous on June 26, 2023, 04:50:54 PM

Let me ask first:
If the priest doesn’t say an absolution pray, is the Sacrament valid?

If the confessor does not say the words of absolution, the confession is invalid.

Giovanni Berto · « **Reply #17 on:** June 26, 2023, 08:58:15 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on June 26, 2023, 07:59:22 PM

I believe "te absolve a peccatis tuis" would technically suffice, even without the rest, but, yes, that's the essential form.

So the penitents who are worried about invalid confessions only need to worry about this part. No need to know by heart the long prayers in the opening post.

I don't know for sure, but I think that even Novus Ordo confessions have this "ego te absolvo a peccatus tuis" part.

Francisco · « **Reply #18 on:** June 28, 2023, 08:31:05 AM »

Quote from: Incredulous on June 21, 2023, 01:45:26 PM

With the influx of priests with questionable new rite Ordinations entering the ranks of the SSPX, e.g., Bp. Vitus Huonder,
it is our militant Catholic duty to watch for abuse of the Sacraments.

In the Sacrament of Penance, the prayers of Absolution are clearly defined in the traditional Roman Ritual.

The Common Form of Absolution

1. Whenever the priests intends to absolve a penitent--having first enjoined a salutary penance on him and the latter having accepted it--he begins by saying:

Misereatur tui omnipotens Deus, et dimissis peccatis tuis, per ducat te ad vitam aeternam. Amen

(May the almighty God have mercy on thee, forgive thee thy sins, and lead thee unto life everlasting. Amen.)

2. Next he raises the right hand towards the penitent and says:

Indulgentiam, absolutionem, + et remissionem peccatorum tuo-rum tribuat tibi omnipotens, et misericors Dominus. Amen. Dominus noster Jesus Christus te absolvat: et ego auctoritate ipsius te absolvo ab omni vinculo excommunicationis, suspensionis, et interdicti, in quantum possum, et tu indiges. Deinde ego te absolvo a peccatis tuis, in nomine Patris, et Filii + et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.

(May the almighty and merciful Lord grant thee pardon, absolution + and remission of thy sins. Amen.
May our Lord, Jesus Christ absolve the, and by His very authority do I absolve thee from every bond of excommunication, suspension and interdict, in so far as lies within my power and thou hast need of it. Furthermore, I absolve thee from thy sins in the name of the Father, and the Son + and the Holy Spirit. Amen.)

If your SSPX priest is not audibly providing this confessional absolution, it's time to move on and find another confessor who does.

I was told that two penitents in the SSPX Asia District, went to the priest after Confessions and told him that they did not hear any absolution. He then did the absolution for both of them! I believe he sits in the Confessional with his mobile phone.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #19 on:** June 28, 2023, 09:24:45 AM »

Quote from: Giovanni Berto on June 26, 2023, 08:58:15 PM

So the penitents who are worried about invalid confessions only need to worry about this part. No need to know by heart the long prayers in the opening post.

I don't know for sure, but I think that even Novus Ordo confessions have this "ego te absolvo a peccatus tuis" part.

Yes, the NO Confessions still retain this form (in the vernacular of course) and would be valid from a valid priest. Problem is that the NO priests are much more inclined to replace the form with stuff like "You are forgiven." or even stuff like "God forgives you." But the word "absolve" is essential.

OABrownson1876 · « **Reply #20 on:** June 28, 2023, 09:27:49 AM »

Quote from: Incredulous on June 21, 2023, 01:45:26 PM

With the influx of priests with questionable new rite Ordinations entering the ranks of the SSPX, e.g., Bp. Vitus Huonder,
it is our militant Catholic duty to watch for abuse of the Sacraments.

In the Sacrament of Penance, the prayers of Absolution are clearly defined in the traditional Roman Ritual.

The Common Form of Absolution

Indulgentiam, absolutionem, + et remissionem peccatorum tuo-rum tribuat tibi omnipotens, et misericors Dominus. Amen. Dominus noster Jesus Christus te absolvat: et ego auctoritate ipsius te absolvo ab omni vinculo excommunicationis, suspensionis, et interdicti, in quantum possum, et tu indiges. Deinde ego te absolvo a peccatis tuis, in nomine Patris, et Filii + et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.

(May the almighty and merciful Lord grant thee pardon, absolution + and remission of thy sins. Amen.
May our Lord, Jesus Christ absolve the, and by His very authority do I absolve thee from every bond of excommunication, suspension and interdict, in so far as lies within my power and thou hast need of it. Furthermore, I absolve thee from thy sins in the name of the Father, and the Son + and the Holy Spirit. Amen.)

It is somewhat a minor point, but the ego te absolvo is doubly emphatic and should be translated "Indeed I absolve..." Just like the consecration formula, Hoc est enim corpus meum, "This is indeed my body." Many of the missals do not translate enim, "indeed." The doubly emphatic also appears when Our Lord said Ego sum lux mundi, or in Greek, ego eimi to phos tou kosmou, "Indeed, I am the light of the cosmos." It is a shame that many of the Latin translators fail to translate these words.

jersey60 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 28, 2023, 10:22:42 AM »

I was always taught to quietly pray the Act of Contrition so as not to “talk over” the Priest’s absolution

Nadir · « **Reply #22 on:** June 29, 2023, 12:05:21 AM »

I thought Incredulous made it perfectly clear in the first lines of the OP.

Quote

With the influx of priests with questionable new rite Ordinations entering the ranks of the SSPX, e.g., Bp. Vitus Huonder, it is our militant Catholic duty to watch for abuse of the Sacraments.

I suspect that most of us here want valid Confession, no?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #23 on:** June 29, 2023, 08:53:52 AM »

Quote from: Nadir on June 29, 2023, 12:05:21 AM

I thought Incredulous made it perfectly clear in the first lines of the OP.

I suspect that most of us here want valid Confession, no?

He's conflating two issues, the validity of the priest granting the "absolution" and the absolution itself. If the priest is of doubtful validity, then you could listen for the absolution until the cows come home and it wouldn't make any difference.

That conflation has caused the issues on this thread. If he were to have said there might be infiltrators who would deliberately withhold absolution to cause problems, that would be one thing, or if he had said that priest transitioning over from the NO would not be properly trained (especially and Latin) and could therefore botch the form ... but he unnecessarily tossed in (irrelevant) considerations regarding the validity of Conciliar "Holy Orders" that has caused confusion.

Incredulous · « **Reply #24 on:** July 01, 2023, 08:22:16 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on June 29, 2023, 08:53:52 AM

He's conflating two issues, the validity of the priest granting the "absolution" and the absolution itself. If the priest is of doubtful validity, then you could listen for the absolution until the cows come home and it wouldn't make any difference.

That conflation has caused the issues on this thread. If he were to have said there might be infiltrators who would deliberately withhold absolution to cause problems, that would be one thing, or if he had said that priest transitioning over from the NO would not be properly trained (especially and Latin) and could therefore botch the form ... but he unnecessarily tossed in (irrelevant) considerations regarding the validity of Conciliar "Holy Orders" that has caused confusion.

The concern is directed to Novus ordo priests who want to become traditional rite priests, but are unwilling to embrace the traditional Sacraments, starting with their own conditional ordination.

Francis assured the SSPX that Bp. Virus Huonder wanted to embrace tradition, but that was a lie.

The SSPX has numerous new-rite priests who said, “ I want to be a traditional rite priest”, yet they become highly defensive when it comes to their own ordination.
It is a problem as old as the SSPX.

Now, if they are slack on the ordination rite, they are likely prone to be slack on the other Sacraments.

It is possible for a veteran SSPX priest to get lazy and forego the proper prayers.

The position that the Remnant should be ever watchful of the Sacraments is valid even if the ex-seminarians on this forum thinks it’s a “gαy topic.”
😉

cath4ever · « **Reply #25 on:** July 01, 2023, 10:22:14 PM »

Quote from: Incredulous on July 01, 2023, 08:22:16 PM

The concern is directed to Novus ordo priests who want to become traditional rite priests, but are unwilling to embrace the traditional Sacraments, starting with their own conditional ordination.

Francis assured the SSPX that Bp. Virus Huonder wanted to embrace tradition, but that was a lie.

The SSPX has numerous new-rite priests who said, “ I want to be a traditional rite priest”, yet they become highly defensive when it comes to their own ordination.
It is a problem as old as the SSPX.

Now, if they are slack on the ordination rite, they are likely prone to be slack on the other Sacraments.

It is possible for a veteran SSPX priest to get lazy and forego the proper prayers.

The position that the Remnant should be ever watchful of the Sacraments is valid even if the ex-seminarians on this forum thinks it’s a “gαy topic.”
😉

This post does not make any sense.

The reason some of the Novus Priests who work in the SSPX would be defensive about their ordination is because, who among us would like to face the reality that the last 10/20/30 years of your life were a complete waste of time? That is implicitly what any Priest submitting to conditional ordination is admitting.

Does that make conditional ordination for them any less necessary? Of course not, and I would not go to any Mass, Confession, or willingly receive Extreme Unction from any of them without their being conditionally ordained first. But their defensiveness is a normal human reaction that many people would make under the same circuмstances. (Cue the long list of responses of people on this forum who will sanctimoniously state "of course 'I' would accept conditional ordination", although they aren't former Novus Ordo Priests themselves and so can state whatever they want in theory since in reality it's not THEM admitting and living in their own life what I said above).

Those who have been conditionally ordained, such as Father Horvath and others, deserve a lot of credit for being willing to implicitly admit what I just said, for their own good and for the good of the faithful they serve. Those who are not conditionally ordained need to be. But the defensiveness is understandable.

Further, a Priest's defensiveness about his own Ordination, at which he was the recipient and not the minister, in NO way shows anything at all about his willingness to confer the traditional sacraments correctly with the correct matter and form when he IS the minister.

Nor does a Novus Ordo Priest's defensiveness about his own Ordination even reveal anything about that Novus Ordo Priest's own view of the matter and form of Priestly Ordination. If someone were to go to any one of these Novus Ordo Priests in the SSPX and ask him what the form of the Consecration of Bishops is, or what the form for the Ordination of Priests is, he would likely say the traditional sacramental form for both of these, if he knows what the form is for either of them. This last statement isn't a criticism of them, for how many traditional Priests could actually quote the sacramental form for the Consecration of Bishops or the Ordination of Priests anyway?

Therefore your statement that "Now, if they are slack on the ordination rite, they are likely prone to be slack on the other Sacraments" has no merit whatsoever, because likely THEY would not themselves have been slack on the ordination rite. But they are only Priests, not Bishops, and could not control what the Novus Ordo Bishop who ordained them did or did not do.

Your next statement about veteran SSPX Priests getting lazy and foregoing the proper prayers negates your whole post and your original post. If what you fear is possible among veteran SSPX Priests, what is the purpose of singling out the Novus Ordo Priests in the SSPX? What was the purpose of your original post if you're willing to admit this? It makes no sense whatsoever.

As laymen who are the recipients of traditional Sacraments it of COURSE is in our interest to make sure what we are receiving is valid. If you, Incredulous, or any other person knows of a Novus Ordo Priest in the SSPX, or any "veteran SSPX Priest" who is messing with Sacramental forms, that needs to be dealt with and corrected.

But if you do NOT have any such evidence I ask again, what is the purpose of your original post? To just randomly sew suspicion among the faithful of the Priests who serve them?

Since you make such an issue of these Priests potentially not using the correct form of absolution, do you have any specific evidence a specific Novus Ordo Priest working in the SSPX has ever not used the correct form of absolution? As Ladislaus has already stated, if their Novus Ordo Ordination was invalid it doesn't matter what they use for the form of absolution since they are not Priests and cannot validly absolve with ANY form.

Your posts on this topic just do not make any sense at this point. Unless you have evidence of a specific event that illustrates your concern, please do something more productive with your life than sewing spurious suspicions toward the clergy.

I want to emphasize that none of what I said is meant to be a DEFENSE of the validity of Novus Ordo Ordinations, nor an actual defense of a refusal of a former Novus Ordo Priest to accept conditional Ordination, nor a defense of any refusal by any SSPX Bishop to confer conditional Ordination in a specific case. Any former Novus Ordo Priest who works in the SSPX should be conditionally ordained, and I would not attend their Masses or receive any sacraments from them unless I was certain that they are conditionally Ordained. But that is not the principal thrust of the allegations in the OP or in the specific post to which I am responding.

Incredulous · « **Reply #26 on:** July 02, 2023, 10:30:54 AM »

Wow… a most rigorous response!

I respectfully disagree with your analysis.

The issue of executing the Traditional Sacraments boils down to the sin of pride.

If one is trained in the bastardized rites (per Bp. Tissier) and is given the grace to awaken to the truth, he realizes he was duped and is humbled.

If he is sincere, he learns the proper form of all the Church’s Sacraments and executes them to the best of his ability.

You mentioned Fr. Horvat and he is a case in point for lacking audible absolution prayers in the confessional.

But instead of rushing to his defense, stop and think. Why is this? Is 60 seconds of prayers so difficult?

I thought for a moment this topic was going to degenerate to the SSPX’s Jansenist predilections… to the attitude, that we, the SSPX ARE the traditional Church and only we have grace.

As exemplified by Fr. Griego’s prideful assumption that any decision he made could be justified by “his state of grace”

This SSPX logic could easily extend to the Confessional, where their priest had only to think of the word “absolution” and it would be Sacramentally applied to the penitent.

Sean Johnson the ex-SSPX BOD theological advocate on this forum, would likely agree.

Francisco · « **Reply #27 on:** July 04, 2023, 01:41:45 AM »

Worth recalling:

Statements of Abp. Marcel Lefebvre

"It is not we who are in schism but the Conciliar Church." -Homily preached at Lille, August 29, 1976, before a crowd of some 12,000. (These words appear in the original uncorrected version of the sermon as recorded and reported in the press)

"This Council represents, in our view and in the view of the Roman authorities, a new Church which they call the Conciliar Church." -Le Figaro, August 4, 1976

"To whatever extent pope, bishops, priests or faithful adhere to this new Church, they separate themselves from the Catholic Church." July 29, 1976, Reflections on the suspension a divinis

"This union which liberal Catholics want between the Church and the Revolution is an adulterous union — adulterous. This adulterous union can only beget bastards. Where are these bastards? They are [the new] rites. The [new] rite of Mass is a bastard rite. The sacraments are bastard sacraments. We no longer know whether they are sacraments that give grace. We no longer know if this Mass gives us the Body and the Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. ... The priests emerging from the seminaries are bastard priests."

"The See of Peter and the posts of authority in Rome being occupied by antichrists, the destruction of the Kingdom of Our Lord is being rapidly carried out even within His Mystical Body here below. ... This is what has brought down upon our heads persecution by the Rome of the antichrists." -Letter to the future bishops, August 29, 1987

"We have never wished to belong to this system that calls itself the Conciliar Church. To be excommunicated by a decree of your eminence ... would be the irrefutable proof that we do not. We ask for nothing better than to be declared ex communione ... excluded from impious communion with infidels." -Open Letter to Cdl. Gantin, July 6, 1988, signed by 24 leading SSPX priests,

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #28 on:** July 04, 2023, 10:20:49 AM »

If a priest cares about the Traditional rites, then he gets conditionally ordained. If he’s hesitant to get conditionally ordained, then serving the Church is not his main concern, which is a big problem. Getting conditionally ordained is not admitting your previous life was “a waste”. It’s admitting that V2 clerics are frauds and liars. But such an admission is VERY important for Trads to make. If one doesn’t want to admit such, then they should be told to leave and go back to V2 churches.

Incredulous · « **Reply #29 on:** July 22, 2023, 09:55:38 AM »

Quote from: Francisco on July 04, 2023, 01:41:45 AM

Worth recalling:

Statements of Abp. Marcel Lefebvre

"It is not we who are in schism but the Conciliar Church." -Homily preached at Lille, August 29, 1976, before a crowd of some 12,000. (These words appear in the original uncorrected version of the sermon as recorded and reported in the press)

"This Council represents, in our view and in the view of the Roman authorities, a new Church which they call the Conciliar Church." -Le Figaro, August 4, 1976

"To whatever extent pope, bishops, priests or faithful adhere to this new Church, they separate themselves from the Catholic Church." July 29, 1976, Reflections on the suspension a divinis

"This union which liberal Catholics want between the Church and the Revolution is an adulterous union — adulterous. This adulterous union can only beget bastards. Where are these bastards? They are [the new] rites. The [new] rite of Mass is a bastard rite. The sacraments are bastard sacraments. We no longer know whether they are sacraments that give grace. We no longer know if this Mass gives us the Body and the Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. ... The priests emerging from the seminaries are bastard priests."

"The See of Peter and the posts of authority in Rome being occupied by antichrists, the destruction of the Kingdom of Our Lord is being rapidly carried out even within His Mystical Body here below. ... This is what has brought down upon our heads persecution by the Rome of the antichrists." -Letter to the future bishops, August 29, 1987

"We have never wished to belong to this system that calls itself the Conciliar Church. To be excommunicated by a decree of your eminence ... would be the irrefutable proof that we do not. We ask for nothing better than to be declared ex communione ... excluded from impious communion with infidels." -Open Letter to Cdl. Gantin, July 6, 1988, signed by 24 leading SSPX priests,

Beautiful +ABL quotations!

Thank you Francis.

It becomes obvious why the SSPX’s masonic cabal had to suppress the Archbishop’s sermons. To claim copyrights and then “deep six” them. 🤦🏻‍♂️

The new SSPX is riddled with compromises to Catholic tradition.

A new data point made known to me, supporting this concern of abuse of the Sacrament of Penance, comes from Louisville, KY.

A zealous trad convert unfamiliar with the SSPX made his way to their Confessional.

After confessing his sins, hearing nothing, he had doubts if the priest had absolved him?

He went back to the chapel to inquire and was told that Father used a vape pipe in the Confessional and therefore was unable to make audible absolutions.

I am not making this up.
The testimony was 1st hand and unsolicited.

Folks, realize there is a full on world war going on for our souls. The devil is quite clever in his methods to deceive us.

Stay on guard, use your God given intellect and graces to discern and resist deceptions.

Author Topic: Discerning proper absolutions in SSPX Confessionals (Read 4858 times)

Ladislaus

Re: Discerning proper absolutions in SSPX Confessionals

cath4ever

Re: Discerning proper absolutions in SSPX Confessionals

Giovanni Berto

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Francisco

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Ladislaus

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OABrownson1876

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jersey60

Re: Discerning proper absolutions in SSPX Confessionals

Nadir

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Ladislaus

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Incredulous

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cath4ever

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Incredulous

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Francisco

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Pax Vobis

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Incredulous

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