Author Topic: Diocesan Bishops will visit Priories of the SSPX (Read 14355 times)

Ecclesia Militans · « **Reply #15 on:** October 12, 2014, 02:49:37 PM »

"Authentic Magisterium" is explained at this link:

http://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/2002_January/Popes_Infallible_Magisterium.htm

The "Authentic Magisterium" cannot be so simply identified with the Ordinary Magisterium. In fact, the Ordinary Magisterium can be infallible and non-infallible, and it is only in this second case that it is called the "Authentic Magisterium." The Dictionnaire de Théologie Catholique [hereafter referred to as DTC - Ed.] under the heading of "papal infallibility" (vol. VII, col.1699ff) makes the following distinctions: 1) there is the "infallible or ex cathedra papal definition in the sense defined by Vatican I" (col.1699); 2) there is the "infallible papal teaching which flows from the pope's Ordinary Magisterium" (col.1705); 3) there is "non-infallible papal teaching" (col.1709).

Similarly, Salaverri, in his Sacrae Theologiae Summa (vol. I, 5th ed., Madrid, B.A.C.) distinguishes the following: 1) Extraordinary Infallible Papal Magisterium (no. 592ff); 2) Ordinary Infallible Papal Magisterium (no. 645ff); 3) Papal Magisterium that is mere authenticuм, that is, only "authentic" or "authorized" as regards the person himself, not as regards his infallibility (no.659ff).

Maria Auxiliadora · « **Reply #16 on:** October 12, 2014, 03:01:59 PM »

Here is a more detailed explanation submitted to Rome as an attachment to a letter.

http://www.saintspeterandpaulrcm.com/OPEN%20LETTERS/WATERS_SULLIVAN_CHAPUT_EXCHANGE/13_A_LUMEN%20GENTIUM_1989%20Profession%20of%20Faith_Authentic%20Magisterium.pdf

Sienna629 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 12, 2014, 09:52:24 PM »

Quote from: Machabees

-Also, meetings are planned, but different from the doctrinal talks of a few years ago. The Society is left with the task of organizing these meetings which will take place between diocesan bishops and priests of the Society.”

Wow, this is huge! Going from the Doctrinal talks of 2009-2011 between Roman Hierarchy and theologians of the SSPX to meetings now between Novus Ordo "Bishops" and ordinary SSPX priests! Doesn't sound like a level playing field, but then again, it probably doesn't matter.

Is this to get to know each other better?

holysoulsacademy · « **Reply #18 on:** October 12, 2014, 11:01:58 PM »

Quote from: Sienna629

Quote from: Machabees
-Also, meetings are planned, but different from the doctrinal talks of a few years ago. The Society is left with the task of organizing these meetings which will take place between diocesan bishops and priests of the Society.”

Wow, this is huge! Going from the Doctrinal talks of 2009-2011 between Roman Hierarchy and theologians of the SSPX to meetings now between Novus Ordo "Bishops" and ordinary SSPX priests! Doesn't sound like a level playing field, but then again, it probably doesn't matter.

Is this to get to know each other better?

Getting to know who? Getting to know you?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/embed/bRpeFRc_xM4[/youtube]

Lyrics:

Getting to know you,
Getting to know all about you.
Getting to like you,
Getting to hope you like me.

Getting to know you,
Putting it my way,
But nicely,
You are precisely,
My cup of tea.

Getting to know you,
Getting to feel free and easy
When I am with you,
Getting to know what to say

Haven't you noticed
Suddenly I'm bright and breezy?
Because of all the beautiful and new
Things I'm learning about you
Day by day.

curioustrad · « **Reply #19 on:** October 13, 2014, 08:48:00 AM »

Prescinding from the theological issues at stake - the complete sell out of the SSPX to the Novus Ordo - as an act of diplomacy this move is one of sheer brilliance. Let me explain.

(1) It takes the heat off Menzingen and Rome. They are no longer the focus of "dialog".

(2) It puts the heat on the individual bishops and the individual priests.

(3) It splits the bishops into individuals since each bishop concretely will be responsible for his own diocese so little chance that the bishop of one diocese will (on the face of it) interfere in the diocese of another. It forces the bishops to act in a "pastoral" way and no longer maintain that as a collegial body they are opposed to reconciliation in principle with anti-Vatican 2 renegades.

(4) The priests are now isolated from central command (Menzingen) it becomes an individual issue for them too. They as Catholics are placed in a false dilemma either to be obedient to the "magisterium" or not. But they are divided and ultimately on their own, always with the thought at the back of their mind that the bread they eat, the bed they sleep in, the church they say Mass in is not theirs but Menzingen's.

(5) The illusion is created that concerning doctrinal discussions from now on the SSPX priests will talk with their Novus Ordo bishop (whilst they have been effectively abandoned by their own bishop in Menzingen).

(6) How does a priest negotiate with a Novus Ordo bishop particularly where he comes to the table with the speculative knowledge (from his priestly formation) that in normal times (and as per the kick in the pants from this memo which reminds them of this) the bishop is the particular teacher of the Faith for the diocese?

(7) The inequality of the interlocutors will necessarily favor capitulation by the SSPX priests.

(8) Each bishop is enabled to offer his own "terms" - there are no universal solutions (that we know of) readily apparent.

(9) The resolution on the diocesan level will further splinter the SSPX command structure since not all "terms" might/will be the same.

With these considerations it is difficult to see how the SSPX could resist such a "charm offensive".

ultrarigorist · « **Reply #20 on:** October 13, 2014, 09:07:42 AM »

Quote from: curioustrad

Prescinding from the theological issues at stake - the complete sell out of the SSPX to the Novus Ordo - as an act of diplomacy this move is one of sheer brilliance. Let me explain.

(1) It takes the heat off Menzingen and Rome. They are no longer the focus of "dialog".

(2) It puts the heat on the individual bishops and the individual priests.

(3) It splits the bishops into individuals since each bishop concretely will be responsible for his own diocese so little chance that the bishop of one diocese will (on the face of it) interfere in the diocese of another. It forces the bishops to act in a "pastoral" way and no longer maintain that as a collegial body they are opposed to reconciliation in principle with anti-Vatican 2 renegades.

(4) The priests are now isolated from central command (Menzingen) it becomes an individual issue for them too. They as Catholics are placed in a false dilemma either to be obedient to the "magisterium" or not. But they are divided and ultimately on their own, always with the thought at the back of their mind that the bread they eat, the bed they sleep in, the church they say Mass in is not theirs but Menzingen's.

(5) The illusion is created that concerning doctrinal discussions from now on the SSPX priests will talk with their Novus Ordo bishop (whilst they have been effectively abandoned by their own bishop in Menzingen).

(6) How does a priest negotiate with a Novus Ordo bishop particularly where he comes to the table with the speculative knowledge (from his priestly formation) that in normal times (and as per the kick in the pants from this memo which reminds them of this) the bishop is the particular teacher of the Faith for the diocese?

(7) The inequality of the interlocutors will necessarily favor capitulation by the SSPX priests.

(8) Each bishop is enabled to offer his own "terms" - there are no universal solutions (that we know of) readily apparent.

(9) The resolution on the diocesan level will further splinter the SSPX command structure since not all "terms" might/will be the same.

With these considerations it is difficult to see how the SSPX could resist such a "charm offensive".

Curioustrad, I think you've nailed it. Furthermore, the NO-bishops with NSSPX chapels in their putative territories often have an ED apostolate too, since those usually set up shop across the street from SSPX. The opportunities are rife for undermining everything. For example by "sharing responsibilities" between NSSPX and FSSP.

curioustrad · « **Reply #21 on:** October 13, 2014, 09:08:12 AM »

Quote from: stgobnait

the prospect of these modernists bishops offering to descend upon our chapels, is anathema......

The prospect of Menzingen selling out is just as "anathema"

curioustrad · « **Reply #22 on:** October 13, 2014, 09:11:11 AM »

Quote from: ultrarigorist

Curioustrad, I think you've nailed it. Furthermore, the NO-bishops with NSSPX chapels in their putative territories often have an ED apostolate too, since those usually set up shop across the street from SSPX. The opportunities are rife for undermining everything. For example by "sharing responsibilities" between NSSPX and FSSP.

Thank you - I hadn't thought of that - makes the picture complete doesn't it ?

RomanCatholic1953 · « **Reply #23 on:** October 13, 2014, 09:12:42 AM »

Very well said CURIOUSTRAD. The best explanation of all.

cathman7 · « **Reply #24 on:** October 13, 2014, 12:52:14 PM »

Quote from: curioustrad

Prescinding from the theological issues at stake - the complete sell out of the SSPX to the Novus Ordo - as an act of diplomacy this move is one of sheer brilliance. Let me explain.

(1) It takes the heat off Menzingen and Rome. They are no longer the focus of "dialog".

(2) It puts the heat on the individual bishops and the individual priests.

(3) It splits the bishops into individuals since each bishop concretely will be responsible for his own diocese so little chance that the bishop of one diocese will (on the face of it) interfere in the diocese of another. It forces the bishops to act in a "pastoral" way and no longer maintain that as a collegial body they are opposed to reconciliation in principle with anti-Vatican 2 renegades.

(4) The priests are now isolated from central command (Menzingen) it becomes an individual issue for them too. They as Catholics are placed in a false dilemma either to be obedient to the "magisterium" or not. But they are divided and ultimately on their own, always with the thought at the back of their mind that the bread they eat, the bed they sleep in, the church they say Mass in is not theirs but Menzingen's.

(5) The illusion is created that concerning doctrinal discussions from now on the SSPX priests will talk with their Novus Ordo bishop (whilst they have been effectively abandoned by their own bishop in Menzingen).

(6) How does a priest negotiate with a Novus Ordo bishop particularly where he comes to the table with the speculative knowledge (from his priestly formation) that in normal times (and as per the kick in the pants from this memo which reminds them of this) the bishop is the particular teacher of the Faith for the diocese?

(7) The inequality of the interlocutors will necessarily favor capitulation by the SSPX priests.

(8) Each bishop is enabled to offer his own "terms" - there are no universal solutions (that we know of) readily apparent.

(9) The resolution on the diocesan level will further splinter the SSPX command structure since not all "terms" might/will be the same.

With these considerations it is difficult to see how the SSPX could resist such a "charm offensive".

Absolutely brilliant analysis. Thank you.

subpallaeMariae · « **Reply #25 on:** October 13, 2014, 01:51:34 PM »

The fancier new priories will entice the bishops to want to accept them into the fold especially since the buildings younger than 3 years old would belong to the Vatican (if the agreement stays the same). Isn't that correct?

holysoulsacademy · « **Reply #26 on:** October 13, 2014, 09:20:54 PM »

+AMDG+

Many years ago early in my marriage and when I was still a CINO (catholic in name only), I worked at the UN.
I learned from my time there that by the time any foreign dignitaries set foot on American soil, all the paperwork for the meetings were already circUlated amongst all the other attendees, any any resolutions to be made already had all accompanying paperwork in place. So when the dignitaries arrived everything was in place and any votes or signatures needed were done in person AS IF THEY GOT TOGETHER, DISCUSSED MATTERS TO BE VOTED ON AND THEN PROCEED TO VOTE. The face to face meetings were mere formalities on issues already decided upon.

Alas, I believe the situation is the same here. Bishops will not be sent unless they were going to seal a deal. IMHO, the deal was already made a long time ago, they were just waiting for the appropriate time to let everyone else know.

Like this Sin-od, it was all already worked out before any of the Bishops arrived. The votes were already cast, attendance was a mere formality, and an excuse to visit Rome. That's why when today's news came out, I was not at all surprised.

Kyrie Eleison!

curioustrad · « **Reply #27 on:** October 13, 2014, 09:54:13 PM »

Quote from: holysoulsacademy

+AMDG+

Many years ago early in my marriage and when I was still a CINO (catholic in name only), I worked at the UN.
I learned from my time there that by the time any foreign dignitaries set foot on American soil, all the paperwork for the meetings were already circUlated amongst all the other attendees, any any resolutions to be made already had all accompanying paperwork in place. So when the dignitaries arrived everything was in place and any votes or signatures needed were done in person AS IF THEY GOT TOGETHER, DISCUSSED MATTERS TO BE VOTED ON AND THEN PROCEED TO VOTE. The face to face meetings were mere formalities on issues already decided upon.

Alas, I believe the situation is the same here. Bishops will not be sent unless they were going to seal a deal. IMHO, the deal was already made a long time ago, they were just waiting for the appropriate time to let everyone else know.

Like this Sin-od, it was all already worked out before any of the Bishops arrived. The votes were already cast, attendance was a mere formality, and an excuse to visit Rome. That's why when today's news came out, I was not at all surprised.

Kyrie Eleison!

Interestingly enough I think this synod also has a particular relevance for the SSPX. Think about it this way:

(1) Benedict XVI promotes plank of mercy for SSPX to re-incommunicate them with V2 church.

(2) German bishops (especially) threatened Benedict XVI with schism if he reconciled the SSPX.

(3) Open season in Rome attempting to thwart B16 - Vatileaks, the butler who stole the papers, the plot to entrap +Williamson and tarnish B16 for lifting the "excommunications" (later admitted as an "inside job" by Vatican inquiry)

(4) Making no headway Benedict resigns "ill health" (anybody remember JP 2 and his health complications ?) and Francesco comes in - appearance of "tabula rasa".

(5) Francesco promotes vigorous V2 agenda - whole world praises him.

(6) He is hero of V2, Time Magazine and Rollingstone Magazine ! (No stones left unturned)

(7) Francesco calls special synod on "family"...

(8) Before the synod (in consultation with Il Papa) Kasper comes out with the "plank of mercy" theory for illegitimate "weddings".

(9) + Fellay goes to Rome and comes to an "arrangement" with Mueller.

(10) Fellay makes a pretense of critiquing Kasper in the post-Mueller meeting interview, but does not mention Francesco, whom Kasper twice cites as the instigator of this plan.

(11) At the synod the German bishops (true to V2 principles) are all in favor of "mercy" and "graduality" for the illegitimately "married".

(12) Yet to be announced Francesco announces deal for SSPX using "plank" of mercy theory and "graduality" for "illegitimately" ordained SSPX priests.

(13) On the principles of "plank of mercy" and "graduality" How can the skewered Germans refuse ? - likewise any other recalcitrant bishops ?

poche · « **Reply #28 on:** October 14, 2014, 12:16:10 AM »

(10) Fellay makes a pretense of critiquing Kasper in the post-Mueller meeting interview, but does not mention Francesco, whom Kasper twice cites as the instigator of this plan.

Fellay isn't the only one who criticized Kasper. A good number of cardinals also criticized him.

poche · « **Reply #29 on:** October 14, 2014, 01:07:29 AM »

(12) Yet to be announced Francesco announces deal for SSPX using "plank" of mercy theory and "graduality" for "illegitimately" ordained SSPX priests.

What would be the difference between this "deal" and the previous one?