The deal is not dead. If the deal was dead, + Fellay would not have refused to ordain the Dominicans & Franciscans  just  because they needed 48 hrs. to decide if they would go with him if he signed an agreement with Rome. He would not have gone through with Part 3 of "Against the Rumors" with their ridiculous slogan: "It is only just that we may be more reintegrated into the Church" or exclude + Williamson from the Chapter. Even if he didn't vote, he controled it. His intent is more clear than ever. Nothing short of a miracle will stop him and he knows full well what he's doing. Unfortunately, many will follow him because "they follow anything that moves..." (Henry the VIII in Man For All seasons)

There are shades of Henry VIII in this, I agree.  But this story isn't ended.

What you suggest is possible.  But other explanations for the data to which you point are possible, and more likely.

The vote on Bishop Williamson is about him and his actions, not the deal.  The numbers on whether a deal should be pursued would be at least as strong in exactly the opposite direction.  

That doesn't mean Bishop Fellay won't try to pursue a deal anyway, but he will have a hard time pursuing a deal with men who don't want what he has to offer - one of three bishops, and a part of the Fraternity, even if it's the bulk of it.

Rome killed the deal by demanding acceptance of Vatican II, and then buried it at the cross-roads outside town by appointing Muller to head the CDF.  You're right that a miracle is needed.  But the miracle needed is the one which Bishop Fellay will need to perform on the corpse, after he goes out to the crossroads with his spade and digs it up...

Thanks, Niel Obstat, that's a lot to think about.  The SSPX is a force to be reckoned with, even today.

DiNoia I am suspicious about.  I really have no way of knowing much about him, except his JP2 Cultural Institute failure.  I am tempted to think he's some agency spook, because of his history with the hideous USCCB.

You're welcome, Elizabeth. I had reservations about putting all that in a thread on
+Fellay's honesty, but it's background for the topic, inasmuch as he is making a
longstanding decision to pursue this rapproachement at all costs.

He seems to be speaking to the SSPX with a "mental reservation," similar to how
B16 speaks with a "mental reservation" about the Third Secret of Fatima. Both are
in a position from which they should be able to see the danger to souls and the
life of faith in Christians, but they choose a more worldly path instead of the
highest law of the Church, which is the salvation of souls. An that, it seems to me,
if it isn't a lie, has the fruit of a lie because it's effects are the same as a lie's effects.

Quote from: GertrudetheGreat

The vote on Bishop Williamson is about him and his actions, not the deal.  

Your statement has quite the pejorative dint to it

No, it doesn't, but it's instructive that you take it that way.

Your interpretation is, incidentally, yet another proof of my long-standing theory that we all judge by our own standards.  For you the mere recitation of true moral doctrine and the careful statement of facts, amounts to "making excuses for Bishop Fellay."  A mind like yours sees everything in pejorative terms.  It's how YOU think, so you assume everybody else does too.

- please explain "about him and his actions"?

The letter from Fr. Thouvenot stated the case against him, and the vote was in response to an appeal against that case.  I haven't seen the appeal, obviously.

My comment, far from being pejorative, was meant to distinguish what are in reality entirely unrelated matters - viz. whether there should be a deal, and whether Bishop Williamson should be at the General Chapter.  These two things are being (perhaps deliberately) confounded by many.  The result of the General Chapter will show that they are quite distinct (although that is already abundantly, undeniably, obvious).

Quote from: GertrudetheGreat

That doesn't mean Bishop Fellay won't try to pursue a deal anyway, but he will have a hard time pursuing a deal with men who don't want what he has to offer - one of three bishops, and a part of the Fraternity, even if it's the bulk of it.

Not immediately, but he will after purging the best of SSPX. The men he's dealing with will be satisfied with a fragmented Fraternity, although they would rather he delivered it up whole.

I doubt he's interested in purging the Fraternity, of any element, even the "best" as you label it.  He could have expelled Bishop Williamson years ago and didn't.  If there's an amnesty issued after the General Chapter, so that the priests presently facing canonical sanctions are let off with the warning they have already been given, will that change your conviction?

And in any case, what is your conviction founded upon?  Clearly nothing in the public sphere.  There's been no purge so far.  Not that I'm hopeful that Mr. Morrison and his readers will let mere facts influence their analysis or their prophecies.

Quote from: ultrarigorist

Quote from: GertrudetheGreat

The vote on Bishop Williamson is about him and his actions, not the deal.  

Your statement has quite the pejorative dint to it

No, it doesn't, but it's instructive that you take it that way.

Your interpretation is, incidentally, yet another proof of my long-standing theory that we all judge by our own standards.  For you the mere recitation of true moral doctrine and the careful statement of facts, amounts to "making excuses for Bishop Fellay."  A mind like yours sees everything in pejorative terms.  It's how YOU think, so you assume everybody else does too.

Quote from: ultrarigorist

- please explain "about him and his actions"?

The letter from Fr. Thouvenot stated the case against him, and the vote was in response to an appeal against that case.  I haven't seen the appeal, obviously.

My comment, far from being pejorative, was meant to distinguish what are in reality entirely unrelated matters - viz. whether there should be a deal, and whether Bishop Williamson should be at the General Chapter.  These two things are being (perhaps deliberately) confounded by many.  The result of the General Chapter will show that they are quite distinct (although that is already abundantly, undeniably, obvious).

Quote from: ultrarigorist

Quote from: GertrudetheGreat

That doesn't mean Bishop Fellay won't try to pursue a deal anyway, but he will have a hard time pursuing a deal with men who don't want what he has to offer - one of three bishops, and a part of the Fraternity, even if it's the bulk of it.

Not immediately, but he will after purging the best of SSPX. The men he's dealing with will be satisfied with a fragmented Fraternity, although they would rather he delivered it up whole.

I doubt he's interested in purging the Fraternity, of any element, even the "best" as you label it.  He could have expelled Bishop Williamson years ago and didn't.  If there's an amnesty issued after the General Chapter, so that the priests presently facing canonical sanctions are let off with the warning they have already been given, will that change your conviction?

And in any case, what is your conviction founded upon?  Clearly nothing in the public sphere.  There's been no purge so far.  Not that I'm hopeful that Mr. Morrison and his readers will let mere facts influence their analysis or their prophecies.

WHEN IS THE SSPX GOING TO ADDRESS THE SINS AND ACTIONS OF ROME WHICH INCLUDES MANY OF THEIR PRIESTS RAPING INNOCENT CHILDREN, ALTAR SERVERS AND EVEN SEMINARIANS.  wHEN ARE THEY GOING TO ADDRESS THE CLERGY WHO IS ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ.  WHEN IS THE SSPX GOING TO MENTION THE LUKEWARM LIBERAL "SECULAR" CATHOLICS WHO DENY GOD AND HIS COMMANDMENTS.  THE SINS AND APOSTACY OF ROME SHOULD HAVE BEEN ADDRESSED.  IT IS A SIN AGAINST GOD TO REMAIN SILENT AND INDIFFERENT TO SIN.  MY PRAYERS ARE WITH SSPX, AND OUR HOLY FATHER SO THEY CAN TAKE ACTION AND DEFEAT THE DEVIL.  

There will be phases and workbooks and other propaganda to ease the sspx into novus ordo.  REal estate will be sold off.  If they can't afford to keep their own properties what makes you think they can afford to keep sspx properties??!!

I have seen first hand the novus ordo workbooks for those difficult people (me) who are grieving over the loss of church and school being closed. *LOL*  Recently, they mentioned Carl jung in novus ordo catholic newspaper which is heresy.  

Also there is much talk about "secular catholics" .   I heard Fordham university received grant money to research "secular catholicism".  

And didn't we just learn that etwn and George weigle mocked the Social Kingship for Jesus Christ?

And many novus ordo catholics do not know their religion.

I was on a trad site on facebook and talked to a novus ordo  seminarian who didn't know anything about the Oath against Moderism.

The Jєωιѕн h0Ɩ0cαųst is being taught instead of the Catholic faith.  They won't talk about or teach about anti-catholicism in America which still exists today.  

Quote from: ultrarigorist

Your statement has quite the pejorative dint to it

Your interpretation is, incidentally, yet another proof of my long-standing theory that we all judge by our own standards.  For you the mere recitation of true moral doctrine and the careful statement of facts, amounts to "making excuses for Bishop Fellay."  A mind like yours sees everything in pejorative terms.  It's how YOU think, so you assume everybody else does too.

So when did you discover you have the Gift of Discernment? Personally I will speak of visible
actions, but never would I dare to presume the interior disposition of the perp.

Quote from: ultrarigorist

- please explain "about him and his actions"?

The letter from Fr. Thouvenot stated the case against him, and the vote was in response to an appeal against that case.  I haven't seen the appeal, obviously.

Perhaps you should hold your tongue then.

My comment, far from being pejorative, was meant to distinguish what are in reality entirely unrelated matters - viz. whether there should be a deal, and whether Bishop Williamson should be at the General Chapter.  These two things are being (perhaps deliberately) confounded by many.  The result of the General Chapter will show that they are quite distinct (although that is already abundantly, undeniably, obvious).

With an adverb/adjective loaded flourish, you claim there's a distinction. Most of us know otherwise, based on at least as much data as you have access to. You might do well to read all the back issues of +Williamson's weekly, and maybe, just maybe, you would learn something.

I doubt he's interested in purging the Fraternity, of any element, even the "best" as you label it.  He could have expelled Bishop Williamson years ago and didn't.  If there's an amnesty issued after the General Chapter, so that the priests presently facing canonical sanctions are let off with the warning they have already been given, will that change your conviction?

Canonical sanctions is it? Do please explain that. We also must infer that you ASSUME that they've done something wrong. Would you please justify your grave accusations without use of pathetic literary panache.

GtG, the way you behave on this forum strikes me like the housewife who, with aerosol tin of
air-freshener in hand, dispenses it here and there as needed to mask the stench caused by her errant tomcat. And who then proceeds to tell her guests that good 'ole Tom is sooo clean and fastidious, you'd never know a cat lived here....

Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey

There will be phases and workbooks and other propaganda to ease the sspx into novus ordo.  REal estate will be sold off.  If they can't afford to keep their own properties what makes you think they can afford to keep sspx properties??!!

I have seen first hand the novus ordo workbooks for those difficult people (me) who are grieving over the loss of church and school being closed. *LOL*  Recently, they mentioned Carl jung in novus ordo catholic newspaper which is heresy.  

Also there is much talk about "secular catholics" .   I heard Fordham university received grant money to research "secular catholicism".  

And didn't we just learn that etwn and George weigle mocked the Social Kingship for Jesus Christ?

And many novus ordo catholics do not know their religion.

I was on a trad site on facebook and talked to a novus ordo  seminarian who didn't know anything about the Oath against Moderism.

The Jєωιѕн h0Ɩ0cαųst is being taught instead of the Catholic faith.  They won't talk about or teach about anti-catholicism in America which still exists today.  

All good points.

But I have another good point:  

I guess I'm jumping ahead.. sorry.  The bottom line is that we all want  God, Our Blessed Mother and the True Mass and Catholic Church to continue on.