Author Topic: Dialogue Mass, Part of the SSPX Agenda (Read 8545 times)

bowler · « **on:** December 08, 2012, 04:50:20 AM »

Moderator Note:

This serious accusation, namely that SSPX Masses in Germany have been said in which mostly the vernacular was used, currently has no proof and should be treated accordingly. I'm half tempted to remove rumors like this altogether. But I'm going to give people a chance to dig up some proof before I do.

Despite what certain priests and others have said about CathInfo, this forum is NOT a hive of rumor-mongering, slander, hearsay, gossip, OR evil.

(excerpted from :http://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/F027_DialogueMass.html)

Dialogue Mass and Mass in Vernacular,
Part of the SSPX Agenda

Dear Fr. Patrick Perez,

I read your recent article The Missal Crisis of '62 on the TIA website with your concerns about the motu proprios of recent years and I am curious for you to comment on a couple things.

I attend an SSPX chapel in northern NY and the “dialogue Mass” is said there. One of the former pastors wanted to “kill it” from the chapel, and to my and my wife’s minds always reminded us of the Novus Ordo. I told Father at the time of our conversation that I would back him up in the chapel if he tried to kill it, but it never happened and I don’t know why.

Also, lately our present pastor has introduced and/or allowed the “new” practice of having the congregation say aloud the triple Domine non sum dignus… before Communion, which I had not heard done in any Traditional chapel before now… also, reminding one of the Novus Ordo.

Comments, directions?...........

Fr. Perez responds:

Dear Mr. B.L.,

.....I am greatly disturbed and saddened that the Society is pushing ahead with its plan to make the "dialogue Mass" the norm in all its chapels. It is a precursor of the Novus Ordo, but remember who controls the Society: the French, and, to some extent, the Germans, and they have a virtual obsession with both the dialogue Mass and this notion of "full and active participation."

You would not believe what the typical SSPX Mass in Europe looks like! In some places, such as Germany, I have seen Society Masses done mostly in the vernacular, with the laity answering everything. Quite the mess.

By the way, if you question the dialogue Mass or this audience participation thing, they will usually give you a reprint of an Angelus article written some years ago which quotes three papal docuмents, although I use the word "quotes" loosely here. When you read these citations you are, indeed, left with the impression that Pope St. Pius X, and Pope Pius XII were in favor of such things, until you look up the docuмents quoted for yourself, and find that the author of the Angelus article, an SSPX priest and a Frenchman (Fr. de la Place), has conveniently grossly mistranslated or misquoted the original docuмents, and those Popes do not say or imply anything like what the article says they do. In my opinion this was quite unscholarly, if not downright deceptive.

I hope that I have sufficiently addressed your questions. If not, feel free to contact me again.

In Cordibus Iesu et Mariae,

Fr. Patrick J. Perez

bowler · « **Reply #1 on:** December 08, 2012, 04:55:39 AM »

and linked in the above article is an article entitled "The 1962 Missal Crisis", form that article I excerpt this related part:

"1958 saw the resuscitation of the “dialogue Mass” with Pius XII’s “Instruction on Sacred Music”, issued on September 3rd, just one month before his death. One is entitled to imagine that Pius XII was little aware of what was going on at that time as he had been gravely ill for some time.

Though this “dialogue Mass”, in which the congregation makes the responses formerly reserved to the altar boys, and even reciting some parts of the Mass formerly reserved to the priest (!), had been allowed on at least one occasion that we know of, and under duress, by Pope Benedict XV in 1922, it nonetheless represented a significant violation of the traditional practice of the Church and theology of the Mass which holds that the right to make the Mass responses and serve at the altar is technically one enjoyed by clerics alone. Hence altar boys are to wear cassocks and surplices which are clerical dress, to indicate that although lay males could serve Mass when required to do so, this was by way of exception and they are substituting by indult for clerics when such could not be had. One of the obvious implications of allowing all of the faithful, females included, to make those responses traditionally reserved to men in Orders, is that females could, in fact, receive Orders as well, even the Priesthood!

Following the death of Pius XII and the election of John XXIII in 1958, the changes continued unabated. "

JMacQ · « **Reply #2 on:** December 08, 2012, 04:56:54 AM »

In some places, such as Germany, I have seen Society Masses done mostly in the vernacular, with the laity answering everything.

Maybe one of the friends from Germany can clarify this. I simply cannot believe that in Germany or anywhere else the SSPX celebrate the Holy Mass in the vernacular.

"Dialogue Mass in Vernacular, Part of the SSPX Agenda" evokes something coming straight from that Tradition website.

bowler · « **Reply #3 on:** December 08, 2012, 04:57:48 AM »

Quote

It is a precursor of the Novus Ordo, but remember who controls the Society: the French, and, to some extent, the Germans, and they have a virtual obsession with both the dialogue Mass and this notion of "full and active participation."

What do the French CI members have to contribute on this?

Telesphorus · « **Reply #4 on:** December 08, 2012, 05:01:42 AM »

Wow.

Francisco · « **Reply #5 on:** December 09, 2012, 07:34:12 AM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote
It is a precursor of the Novus Ordo, but remember who controls the Society: the French, and, to some extent, the Germans, and they have a virtual obsession with both the dialogue Mass and this notion of "full and active participation."

This is very disturbing but Fr Perez may well be right. Some may well believe that a Dialog Mass is best done entirely in the vernacular, so, Novus Ordo ... here we come! In this situation we are back to the 1965-68 pre NOM period. First, the Canon was retained in Latin, and then, even that went vernacular.

Elmer Fudd · « **Reply #6 on:** December 09, 2012, 08:11:25 AM »

Quote from: bowler

(excerpted from :http://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/F027_DialogueMass.html)

Dialogue Mass and Mass in Vernacular,
Part of the SSPX Agenda

Dear Fr. Patrick Perez,

I read your recent article The Missal Crisis of '62 on the TIA website with your concerns about the motu proprios of recent years and I am curious for you to comment on a couple things.

I attend an SSPX chapel in northern NY and the “dialogue Mass” is said there. One of the former pastors wanted to “kill it” from the chapel, and to my and my wife’s minds always reminded us of the Novus Ordo. I told Father at the time of our conversation that I would back him up in the chapel if he tried to kill it, but it never happened and I don’t know why.

Also, lately our present pastor has introduced and/or allowed the “new” practice of having the congregation say aloud the triple Domine non sum dignus… before Communion, which I had not heard done in any Traditional chapel before now… also, reminding one of the Novus Ordo.

Comments, directions?...........

Fr. Perez responds:

Dear Mr. B.L.,

.....I am greatly disturbed and saddened that the Society is pushing ahead with its plan to make the "dialogue Mass" the norm in all its chapels. It is a precursor of the Novus Ordo, but remember who controls the Society: the French, and, to some extent, the Germans, and they have a virtual obsession with both the dialogue Mass and this notion of "full and active participation."

You would not believe what the typical SSPX Mass in Europe looks like! In some places, such as Germany, I have seen Society Masses done mostly in the vernacular, with the laity answering everything. Quite the mess.

By the way, if you question the dialogue Mass or this audience participation thing, they will usually give you a reprint of an Angelus article written some years ago which quotes three papal docuмents, although I use the word "quotes" loosely here. When you read these citations you are, indeed, left with the impression that Pope St. Pius X, and Pope Pius XII were in favor of such things, until you look up the docuмents quoted for yourself, and find that the author of the Angelus article, an SSPX priest and a Frenchman (Fr. de la Place), has conveniently grossly mistranslated or misquoted the original docuмents, and those Popes do not say or imply anything like what the article says they do. In my opinion this was quite unscholarly, if not downright deceptive.

I hope that I have sufficiently addressed your questions. If not, feel free to contact me again.

In Cordibus Iesu et Mariae,

Fr. Patrick J. Perez

The slide continues, and will pick up pace next year.

PerEvangelicaDicta · « **Reply #7 on:** December 09, 2012, 10:16:19 AM »

Quote

Also, lately our present pastor has introduced and/or allowed the “new” practice of having the congregation say aloud the triple Domine non sum dignus… before Communion, which I had not heard done in any Traditional chapel before now… also, reminding one of the Novus Ordo.

They do this at our SSPX church here in Santiago.
And, as I've reported - the congregation dialogues everything and uses High Mass rubrics at Low Mass, without instruction/correction. But here's one that makes me shiver with "N.O. Here We Come" anticipation: the clergy uses females (one sitting near the front) to ring the bells at consecration if there is no altar server vs. a male or just no bells. Now I know what a 'smells and bells' congregation looks like - style over substance. I will not miss this chapel.

On a brighter note, Msgr. Perez is a superb confessor; as is, Fr. Stretenovic. It is no wonder their independent parish is quite large and thriving - if you build it, they will come.

PerEvangelicaDicta · « **Reply #8 on:** December 09, 2012, 10:43:26 AM »

Quote

the clergy uses females (one sitting near the front) to ring the bells at consecration if there is no altar server vs. a male or just no bells

They will also take up the collection too, instead of tapping a man on the shoulder to do so, if no one steps up. Considering there are many priests and visiting priests, deacons and servers at this parish, this is the novus ordo creep of matriarchal infection.
One could say that perhaps, since Chile is a extremely matriarchal society, this reflects in the church. but most of the priests are not Chilean.

Now I know for a fact that +Fellay is aware of this nonsense - he was here in October for a few days, yet it all continues unabated. That's telling.

bowler · « **Reply #9 on:** December 09, 2012, 07:10:46 PM »

Quote from: PerEvangelicaDicta

Quote
the clergy uses females (one sitting near the front) to ring the bells at consecration if there is no altar server vs. a male or just no bells

They will also take up the collection too, instead of tapping a man on the shoulder to do so, if no one steps up. Considering there are many priests and visiting priests, deacons and servers at this parish, this is the novus ordo creep of matriarchal infection.
One could say that perhaps, since Chile is a extremely matriarchal society, this reflects in the church. but most of the priests are not Chilean.

Now I know for a fact that +Fellay is aware of this nonsense - he was here in October for a few days, yet it all continues unabated. That's telling.

The people are ignorant. If they are doing anything wrong, the fault falls squarely on the priest.

St. John Chrysostom said something like: "Most priest are lost and few bishops are saved, not because of what they do so much, as what they fail to do. (St. John Chrysotom)

Matthew · « **Reply #10 on:** December 09, 2012, 07:18:04 PM »

How about we get some confirmation from French/German speakers that this is indeed the case -- that Dialogue Masses are done in the vernacular.

That is a bold claim, and needs to be verified.

Otherwise, it does sound like something ripped off the news page of "Traditio"

Matthew · « **Reply #11 on:** December 09, 2012, 07:20:23 PM »

I could post "Clown Mass offered in SSPX Chapel" and everyone would just react:

"Wow."

"Shows where the SSPX is going..."

"Doesn't surprise me, I've been seeing it coming for years..."

etc.

.
.
.

Would ANYONE actually have the idea to VERIFY THIS before they go ahead and assume that it's true?

brainglitch · « **Reply #12 on:** December 09, 2012, 07:30:55 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

How about we get some confirmation from French/German speakers that this is indeed the case -- that Dialogue Masses are done in the vernacular.

That is a bold claim, and needs to be verified.

Otherwise, it does sound like something ripped off the news page of "Traditio"

"The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their validity."

--Abraham Lincoln

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #13 on:** December 09, 2012, 07:44:39 PM »

Quote from: brainglitch

Quote from: Matthew
How about we get some confirmation from French/German speakers that this is indeed the case -- that Dialogue Masses are done in the vernacular.

That is a bold claim, and needs to be verified.

Otherwise, it does sound like something ripped off the news page of "Traditio"

"The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their validity."

--Abraham Lincoln

Did you hear him say that in the new movie that just came out? :confused1:

Now, translate that into Latin and say that Cicero wrote it. HAHAHAHA

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #14 on:** December 09, 2012, 07:48:51 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

I could post "Clown Mass offered in SSPX Chapel" and everyone would just react:

"Wow."

"Shows where the SSPX is going..."

"Doesn't surprise me, I've been seeing it coming for years..."

etc.

.
.
.

Would ANYONE actually have the idea to VERIFY THIS before they go ahead and assume that it's true?

It's impressive to see you keep a level head at a time like this, Matthew.
And it's a good example of the pressure that you are under, in your position
to keep a balanced website running.

Your credibility just went up a notch.