Author Topic: Denial of Sacraments!  (Read 11206 times)

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Offline Belloc

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Denial of Sacraments!
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2012, 10:53:37 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: Belloc
    My understanding, can dney only if someone is in mortal sin and priest knows it-ie, pro-abort politician, active homo,etc....


    It may not be pleasant to think about, but if the priest knows a man is an active homo, but it isn't publicly known, he CAN'T deny him communion.

    Only a notorious public sinner can be denied Holy Communion.


    is the assumption toward the receipant that he is not actively sinning? he might be a chaste homo or confessed some point unk to the priest?
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    Offline magdalena

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    « Reply #16 on: October 02, 2012, 09:00:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: John Grace
    Quote from: JuanDiego
    On that basis then, were the Dominicans and Capuchins “notorious public sinners”?  What about Fathers Chazal and Pfeiffer – public sinners??  Also, what about the lady in Mexico and the firefighter with the website – all notorious public sinners???  Who gets to decide that?


    Well stated. It certainly doesn't do Bishop Fellay and his gang any favours.


    I'll second that.  Thank you, JuanDiego.    
    But one thing is necessary. Mary hath chosen the best part, which shall not be taken away from her.
    Luke 10:42


    Offline sspxbvm

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    Denial of Sacraments!
    « Reply #17 on: October 02, 2012, 09:08:02 PM »
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  • To deny somebody the sacraments because they are in good conscience defending the Faith they believe to be in jeopardy sounds like a sacraligious act and hence a mortal sin. We'll let God judge that one but the appearances are certainly not good.

    Offline poche

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    « Reply #18 on: October 03, 2012, 05:43:41 AM »
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  • This is something we have to pray about. :pray: :pray: :pray:

    Offline ultrarigorist

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    Denial of Sacraments!
    « Reply #19 on: October 03, 2012, 07:18:19 AM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    This is something we have to pray about. :pray: :pray: :pray:

    Once again poche, please make your prayer requests in the "The Sacred: Catholic Liturgy, Chant, Prayers" category, and stop trying to derail threads here.


    Offline Robin

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    Denial of Sacraments!
    « Reply #20 on: October 07, 2012, 11:53:20 PM »
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  • I seriously fear that the SSPX will be either splitting again or self destructing. Something is seriously wrong. This is heart breaking as so many good, faithful, SSPX Catholics are being punished by pastors. As were some of our faithful holy priests and bishops.  

    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #21 on: October 08, 2012, 12:05:54 AM »
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  • Quote from: Belloc
    Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: Belloc
    My understanding, can dney only if someone is in mortal sin and priest knows it-ie, pro-abort politician, active homo,etc....


    It may not be pleasant to think about, but if the priest knows a man is an active homo, but it isn't publicly known, he CAN'T deny him communion.

    Only a notorious public sinner can be denied Holy Communion.


    is the assumption toward the receipant that he is not actively sinning? he might be a chaste homo or confessed some point unk to the priest?


    If a priest learned in confession that a man was an ACTIVE homo, and he had to deny him absolution, but later saw him at the communion rail, he could not withhold Communion from him.

    For that matter, if a priest saw a man enter a known homosexual bar, then present himself for communion the next day, he couldn't withhold the Sacrament either.

    Long story short: the priest can often be compelled to turn Our Lord over to the torturers, to suffer the mocking and scourging, as it were, a second time. The man who thus receives sacrilegiously will be held to account for this.  And it's not the priest's job to JUDGE at the communion rail.

    At the communion rail, it's time for mercy and extreme benefit of the doubt, even when there is no doubt in some cases. The burden of worthiness rests upon the recipient, as St. Paul teaches (I can get you an exact quote if you need it). "He who eats the Body of the Lord unworthily..." etc.
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    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #22 on: October 08, 2012, 12:10:25 AM »
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  • In other words, a mortal sin being "public knowledge" is not sufficient. The person has to be a NOTORIOUS mortal sinner -- in other words, the entire chapel should know very well whey the man or woman is being refused Communion, at the time it happens.

    Senator Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, etc.

    If Prince or The Great Whore (an 80's vulgar pop star that hails from Italy) were denied communion, no one would be shocked.

    Even if a priest knows first-hand that a man is in mortal sin, it is not his job to judge each person at the communion rail.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #23 on: October 08, 2012, 07:28:55 AM »
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  • Imagine in some chapels in areas like San Francisco or West Hollywood (there
    may be none but I'm saying imagine if there were) where the lineup at the
    Communion rail might look like a Rogues' Gallery of miscreants.  

    Or what about a priest going to a prison to say CTLM for the inmates and at
    Communion time they all kneel down at the rail, looking like an ID lineup or
    mug shots without the ID numbers?

    How would you like to be the priest, saying, "Domine, non sum dignus...?"








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    Offline JPaul

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    « Reply #24 on: October 08, 2012, 08:08:21 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    In other words, a mortal sin being "public knowledge" is not sufficient. The person has to be a NOTORIOUS mortal sinner -- in other words, the entire chapel should know very well whey the man or woman is being refused Communion, at the time it happens.

    Senator Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, etc.

    If Prince or The Great Whore (an 80's vulgar pop star that hails from Italy) were denied communion, no one would be shocked.

    Even if a priest knows first-hand that a man is in mortal sin, it is not his job to judge each person at the communion rail.


    It is evident that the salvation of souls is no longer the imperative in Menzingen.

    Offline Sienna629

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    « Reply #25 on: October 08, 2012, 10:23:15 AM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    This is something we have to pray about. :pray: :pray: :pray:



    Who is this guy????  Is that all he can say????  How annoying!!!


    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #26 on: October 08, 2012, 10:45:38 AM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat




    Imagine in some chapels in areas like San Francisco or West Hollywood (there
    may be none but I'm saying imagine if there were) where the lineup at the
    Communion rail might look like a Rogues' Gallery of miscreants.  

    Or what about a priest going to a prison to say CTLM for the inmates and at
    Communion time they all kneel down at the rail, looking like an ID lineup or
    mug shots without the ID numbers?

    How would you like to be the priest, saying, "Domine, non sum dignus...?"


    The priest is instructed to give a short sermon in such cases, about being in the state of grace for Communion, etc. He should basically announce that only practicing Catholics in the state of grace should receive. He might also mention hell fire, especially considering his rather "down to earth" audience.

    I forgot to mention that if a priest is in unusual circumstances (a  funeral, prison, etc.) and neglects to mention this, then HE is responsible for all the sacrileges committed at the communion rail.

    But, once again, all the priest can do is use his authority to forbid mortal sinners and non-Catholics to receive. If they put themselves forward after all, there's nothing the priest can do about it.

    Oh, and sometimes Communion is not distributed at Mass. That is another "safe" path in such circumstances.
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    Offline nadieimportante

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    « Reply #27 on: October 08, 2012, 11:14:07 AM »
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  • Quote from: MaterDominici
    FYI - there's another thread discussing this already. I'll go find the link...

    HERE: http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=20619&min=0&num=5


    Everyone is assuming that it is Bishop Fellay's doing, that people are being denied communion, however, having met and talked with Bishop Fellay a few times, I find it hard to believe that it is he who is directing this whole totalitarian crackdown. I saw him as a gentle giant, a kind of large child, incapable of harming anyone. I think it is more likely that he is being manipulated by others. That would make more sense to me, having known him before. His personality was such, that I could see how he could be manipulated by others.

    I wonder what the other bishops have to say about my analysis, for they know Bishop Fellay the best.
    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine

    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #28 on: October 08, 2012, 11:18:25 AM »
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  • Quote from: nadieimportante
    Quote from: MaterDominici
    FYI - there's another thread discussing this already. I'll go find the link...

    HERE: http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=20619&min=0&num=5


    Everyone is assuming that it is Bisghop Fellay's doing, that people are being denied communion, however, having met and talked with Bishop Fellay a few times, I find it hard to believe that it is he who is directing this totalitarian crackdown. I saw him as a gentle giant, a kind of large child, incapable of harming anyone. I think it is more likely that he is being manipulated by others. That would make more sense to me, having known him before. His personality was such, that he could easily be manipulated by others.


    Even if you are correct, it changes nothing. Even if Bishop Fellay isn't personally at fault, if he is rubber-stamping such outrages to be committed with his authority or in his name, he might as well be guilty of perpetrating them himself. Remember, if someone with his level of power doesn't oppose an injustice, it's about the same "sin" as if he thought up the injustice himself.

    A simple layman doesn't have much power, at home, work, or otherwise. The Superior General of a large religious organization? He has much more control and influence. Such a one must be careful to not sin by tacit consent or omission.
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    Offline nadieimportante

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    « Reply #29 on: October 08, 2012, 11:22:18 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: nadieimportante
    Quote from: MaterDominici
    FYI - there's another thread discussing this already. I'll go find the link...

    HERE: http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=20619&min=0&num=5


    Everyone is assuming that it is Bisghop Fellay's doing, that people are being denied communion, however, having met and talked with Bishop Fellay a few times, I find it hard to believe that it is he who is directing this totalitarian crackdown. I saw him as a gentle giant, a kind of large child, incapable of harming anyone. I think it is more likely that he is being manipulated by others. That would make more sense to me, having known him before. His personality was such, that he could easily be manipulated by others.


    Even if you are correct, it changes nothing. Even if Bishop Fellay isn't personally at fault, if he is rubber-stamping such outrages to be committed with his authority or in his name, he might as well be guilty of perpetrating them himself. Remember, if someone with his level of power doesn't oppose an injustice, it's about the same "sin" as if he thought up the injustice himself.

    A simple layman doesn't have much power, at home, work, or otherwise. The Superior General of a large religious organization? He has much more control and influence. Such a one must be careful to not sin by tacit consent or omission.


    True, Matthew.

    However, my question then is, who is it then, who is "whispering" in Bishop Fellay's ears? Someone in the SSPX or outside? That would make a good thread all by itself, No?
    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine


     

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