Author Topic: Critique of Doctrinal Preamble by Mgr de Galarreta  (Read 5373 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Wessex

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1311
  • Reputation: +1951/-361
  • Gender: Male

Offline Wessex

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1311
  • Reputation: +1951/-361
  • Gender: Male
Critique of Doctrinal Preamble by Mgr de Galarreta
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2012, 04:42:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Please find attached (above link) a comprehensive critique by Mgr de Galarreta of the Doctrinal Preamble (that was received by Mgr Fellay from Cardinal Levada on 14th September 2011).  The Doctrinal Preamble was presented by Mgr Fellay during the meeting of the General Chapter of the FSSPX which took place at Albano on 7-8th October 2011.

    After this meeting, the FSSPX issued a press communiqué stating that "the twenty-eight persons in charge of the Society of St Pius X present at the meeting – seminary rectors, district superiors from all over the world – manifested a profound unity in their will to maintain the Faith in its integrity and its fullness, faithful to the lesson which Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre left them, according to St Paul’s “Tradidi quod et accepi – I have handed over what I myself have received” (I Cor 15:3)."

    As Fr Paul Morgan, Superior of British District of the FSSPX, stated in the November 2011 issue of the British District newsletter: "... the stated consensus of those in attendance was that the Doctrinal Preamble was clearly unacceptable and the time has certainly not come to pursue any practical agreement as long as the doctrinal issues remain outstanding.  It was also agreed that the Society should continue its work of insisting upon the doctrinal questions in any contacts with the Roman authorities."
     
       


    Offline 1917

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 34
    • Reputation: +39/-0
    Critique of Doctrinal Preamble by Mgr de Galarreta
    « Reply #2 on: June 27, 2012, 06:55:56 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • How recent is the critique by Mons. de Galarreta? Is it based on the latest 'agreement' that Mons. Fellay has been trying to sign? I note that Mons. de Galarreta has based the whole of his critique on Mons. Lefebvre's responses to questions posed by Fideliter on why he could not sign any agreement with Rome, and had been betrayed, as he said, by people like Dom Gérard and the Frat of St Peter whom he had helped for some 15 years, through ordinations, allowing them to use their houses and even financially.  :confused1:
    Posted by family member.

    Offline Sunbeam

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 246
    • Reputation: +275/-2
    • Gender: Male
    Critique of Doctrinal Preamble by Mgr de Galarreta
    « Reply #3 on: June 27, 2012, 06:56:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Am working on a translation.

    Here, as a taster, is the opening paragraph:

    To limit myself to the "Preliminary Note" and the "Doctrinal Preamble", I must say straight away that they are confused, equivocal, false and bad for the most part. Even the apparent opening criticism of the Council is cryptic and cunning, a well-dressed trap ("legitimate [?] discussion ... expressions or formulations ..." according to the "criteria of interpretation of necessary Catholic doctrine ... ", that is to say, according to "Preamble" II and III, 2, especially at the end). This document is substantially unacceptable. It is worse than the 1988 Protocol, in particular in relation to the Council and the postconciliar magisterium.

    This seems to align with the comment from Fr Morgan quoted above.

    Offline Wessex

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1311
    • Reputation: +1951/-361
    • Gender: Male
    Critique of Doctrinal Preamble by Mgr de Galarreta
    « Reply #4 on: June 27, 2012, 07:06:27 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: 1917
    How recent is the critique by Mons. de Galarreta? Is it based on the latest 'agreement' that Mons. Fellay has been trying to sign? I note that Mons. de Galarreta has based the whole of his critique on Mons. Lefebvre's responses to questions posed by Fideliter on why he could not sign any agreement with Rome, and had been betrayed, as he said, by people like Dom Gérard and the Frat of St Peter whom he had helped for some 15 years, through ordinations, allowing them to use their houses and even financially.  :confused1:
    Posted by family member.



    As quoted on Ignis Ardens:

    "Its origin and date is the meeting of SSPX Superiors at Albano, 7-8th October 2011.

    The critique was presented by Bishop de Galarreta to the assembled Superiors of SSPX, resulting in the thorough rejection of the preamble by the vast majority of those present."


    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4717
    • Reputation: +4129/-1442
    • Gender: Male
    Critique of Doctrinal Preamble by Mgr de Galarreta
    « Reply #5 on: June 27, 2012, 07:25:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Wessex
    Quote from: 1917
    How recent is the critique by Mons. de Galarreta? Is it based on the latest 'agreement' that Mons. Fellay has been trying to sign? I note that Mons. de Galarreta has based the whole of his critique on Mons. Lefebvre's responses to questions posed by Fideliter on why he could not sign any agreement with Rome, and had been betrayed, as he said, by people like Dom Gérard and the Frat of St Peter whom he had helped for some 15 years, through ordinations, allowing them to use their houses and even financially.  :confused1:
    Posted by family member.



    As quoted on Ignis Ardens:

    "Its origin and date is the meeting of SSPX Superiors at Albano, 7-8th October 2011.

    The critique was presented by Bishop de Galarreta to the assembled Superiors of SSPX, resulting in the thorough rejection of the preamble by the vast majority of those present."


    so why do we care about this critique, made irrelevent by several secret modifications since then?
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline MaterDominici

    • Owner's Wife
    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 4936
    • Reputation: +3673/-69
    • Gender: Female
    Critique of Doctrinal Preamble by Mgr de Galarreta
    « Reply #6 on: June 27, 2012, 08:36:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Seraphim
    so why do we care about this critique, made irrelevent by several secret modifications since then?


    Quote from: Fr Thouvenot
    On the 13th June, 2012, Cardinal Levada returned to our Superior General his text of April, but it was amended in such a way that it still took up, in substance, the propositions of September, 2011. Msgr. Fellay also made known to him that he could not sign this new document, which was clearly unacceptable. The coming General Chapter will permit the analysis of the entire dossier.


    It looks as though what they are "analyzing" now is essentially the same as what was critiqued and rejected then.
    "If I could only make the faithful sing the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei ... that would be to me the finest triumph sacred music could have, for it is in really taking part in the liturgy that the faithful will preserve their devotion. I would take the Tantum ...

    Offline JPaul

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3832
    • Reputation: +3717/-290
    • Gender: Male
    Critique of Doctrinal Preamble by Mgr de Galarreta
    « Reply #7 on: June 27, 2012, 09:54:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: MaterDominici
    Quote from: Seraphim
    so why do we care about this critique, made irrelevent by several secret modifications since then?


    Quote from: Fr Thouvenot
    On the 13th June, 2012, Cardinal Levada returned to our Superior General his text of April, but it was amended in such a way that it still took up, in substance, the propositions of September, 2011. Msgr. Fellay also made known to him that he could not sign this new document, which was clearly unacceptable. The coming General Chapter will permit the analysis of the entire dossier.


    It looks as though what they are "analyzing" now is essentially the same as what was critiqued and rejected then.


    No doubt with a little more dung added to the heap.


    Offline Incredulous

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4866
    • Reputation: +5645/-463
    • Gender: Male
    Critique of Doctrinal Preamble by Mgr de Galarreta
    « Reply #8 on: June 27, 2012, 10:23:47 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Seraphim
    Quote from: Wessex
    Quote from: 1917
    How recent is the critique by Mons. de Galarreta? Is it based on the latest 'agreement' that Mons. Fellay has been trying to sign? I note that Mons. de Galarreta has based the whole of his critique on Mons. Lefebvre's responses to questions posed by Fideliter on why he could not sign any agreement with Rome, and had been betrayed, as he said, by people like Dom Gérard and the Frat of St Peter whom he had helped for some 15 years, through ordinations, allowing them to use their houses and even financially.  :confused1:
    Posted by family member.



    As quoted on Ignis Ardens:

    "Its origin and date is the meeting of SSPX Superiors at Albano, 7-8th October 2011.

    The critique was presented by Bishop de Galarreta to the assembled Superiors of SSPX, resulting in the thorough rejection of the preamble by the vast majority of those present."


    so why do we care about this critique, made irrelevent by several secret modifications since then?



    Do we have a recent confirmation that Bishop de Galarreta is still going to resist Bp. Fellay's SSPX takeover cabal ?

     :thinking:
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Ethelred

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1222
    • Reputation: +2266/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Critique of Doctrinal Preamble by Mgr de Galarreta
    « Reply #9 on: June 28, 2012, 02:07:33 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: J.Paul
    Quote from: MaterDominici
    Quote from: Seraphim
    so why do we care about this critique, made irrelevent by several secret modifications since then?


    Quote from: Fr Thouvenot
    On the 13th June, 2012, Cardinal Levada returned to our Superior General his text of April, but it was amended in such a way that it still took up, in substance, the propositions of September, 2011. Msgr. Fellay also made known to him that he could not sign this new document, which was clearly unacceptable. The coming General Chapter will permit the analysis of the entire dossier.


    It looks as though what they are "analyzing" now is essentially the same as what was critiqued and rejected then.


    No doubt with a little more dung added to the heap.


    Mater & J.Paul, that's just too hilarious! Thanks for your comments.

    We really have to take all this with much humour.

    Offline Ethelred

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1222
    • Reputation: +2266/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Critique of Doctrinal Preamble by Mgr de Galarreta
    « Reply #10 on: June 28, 2012, 02:10:51 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Incredulous
    Do we have a recent confirmation that Bishop de Galarreta is still going to resist Bp. Fellay's SSPX takeover cabal ? :thinking:


    Yes, four days ago I wrote the following here on Cathinfo :
    Quote
    There's not much information about the third good bishop who signed the "No New-Rome" letter to Menzingen (7 April 2012): Bishop de Galarreta.

    However, he's been spending confirmations in Germany recently. A friend of mine spoke with a German SSPX priest [some days ago] who hosted Bishop Galarreta. According to this priest he asked the Bishop about the New-Rome agreement situation, and the Bishop said (quoted from my memory only!): This is not the time to sign an agreement; it will take years before we can think about it.

    So it seems that the three bishops are united in their opposition to any agreement with New-Rome.


    OK, so this is no public information, unfortunately. But I have no reason to doubt the source.

    We'll see soon anyway, on the Chapter meeting, hopefully with some followers of the Apostles using fine strikes with their (verbal) swords like our good St. Petrus did in the Garden of Gethsemane.


    Offline Wessex

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1311
    • Reputation: +1951/-361
    • Gender: Male
    Critique of Doctrinal Preamble by Mgr de Galarreta
    « Reply #11 on: June 28, 2012, 02:11:24 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well, Bp. Tissier was uncompromising in his Confirmations sermon in Idaho about the "heretical perversion of the new religion". And Bp. Williamson is being excluded because of his well-known position. The remaining bishop surely has to stick with what he has written, making the three a formidable opposition if they have a joint strategy to circumvent Menzingen's tactics.

    Offline Ethelred

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1222
    • Reputation: +2266/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Critique of Doctrinal Preamble by Mgr de Galarreta
    « Reply #12 on: June 28, 2012, 02:16:20 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Wessex
    Well, Bp. Tissier was uncompromising in his Confirmations sermon in Idaho about the "heretical perversion of the new religion". And Bp. Williamson is being excluded because of his well-known position. The remaining bishop surely has to stick with what he has written, making the three a formidable opposition if they have a joint strategy to circumvent Menzingen's tactics.

    That's the point.

    There's no indication that Bishop de Galarreta abandoned the formal and united position of the three bishop's letter from 7 April 2012 against an agreement with New-Rome.
    On the contrary there's recent sources (aprox one week ago) who confirm that Bishop de Galarreta also today opposes any practical agreement with New-Rome.

    So, let's see.


    By the way, dear Wessex, do you as Englishman in the land of the brave British SSPX district have any hint or information about the question if Bishop Williamson will ignore the illegal expulsion from the General Chapter?

    Offline Columba

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 552
    • Reputation: +728/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Critique of Doctrinal Preamble by Mgr de Galarreta
    « Reply #13 on: June 28, 2012, 02:18:46 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Bishop de Galarreta's critique is indeed relevant. A copy-able PDF in the original French is also attached.

    REFLECTIONS AROUND THE ROMAN PROPOSAL

    ROMAN TEXT

    To limit myself to the "Preliminary Note" and "doctrinal Preamble", I must say straight away that they are confusing, misleading, false and bad in essence. Even the apparent openness to criticism of the Council is enigmatic and cunning, well-trained trap (... << self {?} Thread... expressions or formulations... as "interpretive criteria of Catholic doctrine necessary...", that is to say, according to" Preamble" II and III, 2, especially in fine). This document is substantially unacceptable. It is worse than the 1988 Protocol, in particular in relation to the Council and the post-conciliar magisterium.

    Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre
    Our true believers, those who understand the problem and we have just helped to continue the straight and firm and the Tradition of faith, feared the steps I made in Rome. They told me it was dangerous and that I was wasting my time. Yes, of course, I hoped until the last minute in Rome have to testify a little bit of loyalty. You can not blame me for not doing the maximum. So now, those who say to me, you must agree with Rome, I can safely say that I went even farther than I should have stayed (Fideliter no. 79, p. 11).    


    Quote from: Fideliter
    What do you think of the statement of Cardinal Ratzinger establishing an oath of fidelity and that includes a profession of faith?


    Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre
    First is the Creed, which poses no problem. He remained intact. The first and second paragraphs do not raise difficulties. These are things in common theologically. But the third is very bad.

    This is practically align what the bishops from around the world now believe. In the preamble it is also clear that this paragraph was added because of the spirit of the Council. It refers to the Council and the so-remote teaching today is that of conciliar. He should have added: as this magisterium is in full compliance with the Tradition.

    As this formula is dangerous. This shows the spirit of these people that it is impossible to agree. This is absolutely ridiculous and false as some have done-to make this oath of allegiance as a resurgence of anti-modernist oath removed from the, Council. While the venom is in the third paragraph that seems purposely to force those who have rallied to this sign of faith and assert their full agreement with the bishops.

    It is as if the time of Arianism had been told, now you agree with all that think the Arian bishops.

    No I am not exaggerating, it is clearly stated in the introduction. This is disingenuous. One may wonder if we did not want to Rome, thereby correcting the text of the Protocol. Although it does not satisfy us, it seems too in our favor in Article 3 of the doctrinal statement, because it does not express enough the need to submit to the Council.

    So I think they are catching up now. They are likely to sign these documents to the seminarians of the Fraternity of St. Peter before their ordination and priests of the Fraternity, which will then be obliged to make an official act of rallying to the conciliar Church.

    Unlike the protocol, these new texts we submit to the Council and all the conciliar bishops. It is their spirit and we do not change (Fideliter, no. 70, p. 16).


    Quote from: Fideliter
    Do you think the situation has deteriorated further since you had before-the sacred-initiated conversations that led to the drafting of the Protocol of 5 May 1988?


    Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre
    Oh yes! For example the fact of the profession of faith which is now claimed by Cardinal Ratzinger since the beginning of 1989. This is a very serious matter. Because it asks all those who joined or could do to make a profession of faith in the documents of the Council and the post-conciliar reforms. For us it is impossible (Fideliter No. 79, p. 4).


    PRINCIPLE OF JUDGMENT

    In fact it fits perfectly with the thought and the Roman position that the Commission has expressed all along the doctrinal discussions. It is essential to the current issue to bear in mind the unmistakable conclusion that we just did on this occasion: they are not ready to give up Vatican II Council, nor the liberal doctrines of it, and their intention , their obvious desire, it brings back is to us. At most, Rome would accept a rebalancing and better formulation, again as part of the "hermeneutic of renewal in continuity". And then we can discuss and we are very useful... to endorse the revival of the reform with continuity.

    AGREEMENT IMPOSSIBLE

    The proposed document does confirm that it is illusory and unrealistic to believe that we could reach an agreement good practice, appropriate and warranted, and even just acceptable to both parties. Given the circumstances, it is certain that at the end, after long parliaments, we arrive at absolutely nothing. So, why we get involved?

    REASONS FOR REFUSAL

    Following the proposal Roman, the real question, crucial, is: should we, can we, we take the path of a "possible" agreement first practice? Is it prudent and appropriate to maintain contacts with Rome to such an agreement?

    For me the answer is clear: we must reject this path because we can not do a wrong to a property arrives (though also uncertain) and because this will necessarily lead to pain (very certain) for the good common that we have, for the Fraternity and the Family Tradition.
    The following summarizes some of the reasons for my point of view:

    OBEY WHOM, WHAT?

    I. How to submit and obey authorities who continue to think, to preach, and to govern by modernists? We have goals and purposes contrary, even different ways, how to work under them?

    The problem is not the subjective intentions, but objective, clear, the observation that we have just made their desire: Vatican II acceptance of the Council and its liberal principles. Essentially nothing has changed, there is no "return".

    Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre
    These are things that are easy to say. Get inside the church, what does this mean? And First Church of what your talking about? If this is the conciliar Church, that we should have fought against it for twenty years because we want the Catholic Church, we were back in the conciliar Church to supposedly make it Catholic. It is an illusion total. These are topics that are pa superiors but the superiors who are the subjects (Fideliter No. 70, p. 6)


    Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre
    I do not think this is a real return. It's like a fight, when one has the impression that the troops v.ont a little too far, they are kept, it slows down a little momentum of Vatican II, because the advocates of the council will too far. Besides these theologians were very wrong to be excited. These bishops are all acquired at the Council and the post-conciliar reforms, ecumenism and charismatic.

    Apparently they do something a little more moderate, some traditional religious sense, but it is not deep. The fundamental principles of the Council, the mistakes of the Council, they receive them, they put them into practice. This is no problem. Rather, I would say it is they who are the hardest with us. It is they who most require that we submit to the principles of the Council (Fideliter No. 70, p. 12).


    Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre
    It was perfectly clear, and this illustrates their mindset. There is no question of them abandoning the new mass. On the contrary, and this is obvious. Therefore what can be appears as a concession is actually a ploy to reach away from us as possible to the faithful. It is in this perspective that they seem to always give a little more and go very far. We absolutely need to convince the faithful that it is a maneuver, that is a danger of getting into the hands of bishops and conciliar modernist Rome. This is the greatest danger that threatens them. If we fought for twenty years to avoid errors conciliar, this is not to put us now in the hands of those who profess (Fideliter No. 70, p. 13-14).


    AFFECT THE CONFESSION OF FAITH

    II. How then do not go against the defense and public confession of faith, against the public need protection the faithful and the Church?

    In this regard, if we make an agreement we are purely practical, in the present circumstances, already in the duplicity and ambiguity. The very fact is a public testimony and a message: we cannot be in "full communion" with the authorities who remain modernists.

    We can not do it either ignores the context, that is to say, events and constant teachings in the life of the Church today: repeated visits to Protestant churches and synagogues, beatification (soon to be canonized) by Jean Paul II, III Sitting, preaching time and inconvenience of religious freedom, and a long etcetera.

    Moreover, if we make an agreement we will lose freedom of speech, we must mute our public criticism of the facts, authorities and even some texts of the Council and the post-conciliar magisterium.

    To understand and illustrate the points 1 and II, just look what happened with all the rallies, from F. St. Pierre to the IBP: they are inevitably confronted with the choice to surrender or betray their commitments... and this is the first to arrive.

    Quote from: Fideliter
    When we see that Dom Gerard and the Fraternity of St. Peter got to keep the liturgy and catechism, no-they say-they have nothing conceded, some who are troubled to find themselves in difficult situations with Rome, may be tempted to join the long turn by lassitude. "They come well, they say, to agree with Rome without having nothing dropped. "


    Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre
    When they say they did not give up, it's wrong. They dropped the ability to counter Rome. They can not say anything. They must remain silent given the favors granted to them. They are now impossible to denounce the errors of the conciliar Church. Slowly they join, if only by the profession of faith that is requested by Cardinal Ratzinger. I think Dom Gerard is about to publish a little book written by one of his monks, on religious freedom and that will try to justify it (Fideliter No. 79, p. 4-5).


    Quote from: Fideliter
    Since the coronations there is more contact with Rome, however, as you told, Cardinal Oddi called you saying: "We need things work out. Have a little forgiveness to the Pope and it is ready to welcome you. " So why not try this last approach and why you think it impossible?


    Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre
    It is absolutely impossible in the current climate of Rome is becoming worse. We must not delude ourselves. principles who now run the conciliar Church are increasingly openly contrary to Catholic doctrine.

      Before the Commission on Human Rights United Nations, Cardinal Casaroli said recently: "I wish to dwell a little on a specific aspect of the fundamental freedom of thought and act according to conscience, therefore free to religion... The Catholic Church and her Supreme Pastor, who has made &#8203;&#8203;human rights one of the major themes of his preaching, did not fail to recall that in a world made &#8203;&#8203;by man and for man , the whole organization of society has meaning insofar as it makes the human dimension of central concern. " Hear it in the mouth of a cardinal! God does not talk about it!


      For his part Cardinal Ratzinger, by presenting a river on the relationship between the Magisterium and theologians, says he says "for the first time with clarity" that "decisions of the Magisterium can not be the last word on the matter as such" but "a kind of interim arrangement... The core remains stable but the particular aspects which have an influence on the circumstances of time may need further corrections. In this regard it may be noted the declarations of the popes of the last century. Decisions antimodernist have done a great service... but they are now outdated. " And now, the page of modernism is turned! These reflections are absolutely insane.

      Finally the Pope is more than ever ecumenist. All misconceptions of u Council continue to flourish, to be reaffirmed with ever greater clarity. They hide less. It is therefore absolutely inconcevabl e that we can agree to work with a similar hierarchy (Fideliter No. 79, p. 3-4).


    Quote from: Fideliter
    You said, pointing to Dom Gerard and others: "They betrayed us. Now they give out to those who demolish the church, the Liberals, the modernists. " Is not that a bit harsh ?


    Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre
    But no. They appealed to me for fifteen years. It's not me who went to pick them. It is they themselves who came to me and ask for support, to ordinations, the friendship of our priests along with the opening of our priories to help financially. They all used us as they could. We did a good heart and even generously. I was pleased to make these ordinations, to open our homes so they can benefit from the generosity of our benefactors... And then, suddenly, I phone: we no longer need you, it's over. We will go to the Archbishop of Avignon. We are now in agreement with Rome. We signed a protocol.

      This is not a light heart that we had trouble with Rome. It's not for fun that we had to fight. We did it for principles, to keep the Catholic faith. And they agreed with us. They collaborated with us. And then suddenly we abandon the fight for true ally with demolition under the pretext that they be given some privileges. This is unacceptable.

    They have virtually abandoned the fight of faith. They can not attack Rome.

      This was also the Father of Blignières. He changed completely. He who had written a whole volume to condemn religious freedom, he now writes in favor of religious freedom. This laugh is not serious. We can no longer count on men like these, who did not understand the doctrinal question.
      I think in any case they commit a grave error. They have gravely sinned by acting as they did, knowingly and with a casualness implausible (Fideliter No. 79, p. 6).    
       

    QUESTION DOCTRINAL, ESSENTIAL PROBLEM

    III. We must look at the context in which they intend to incorporate us. An agreement is, like it or not, we integrate into their system in a thinking and reality data that do not depend on us but who depend on their thinking, their theology and their action. And this is how they will be presented (see Campos, text signed by Mgr. Licinio).

    But we have just seen in doctrinal discussions what is their design: pure modernism revised and corrected.

    In particular there will be implied that we would accept three principles implicitly:

    1. Relativism of truth, even dogmatic, need for pluralism in the Church. For them we have the experience and charisma of Tradition, good and useful to the Church, but only partial truth.

    System and their modernist dialectic (claiming the contrary) allows them to integrate ourselves in the name of "unity in diversity", as positive and necessary Il1ême, provided we are in full communion (obedience to authority and respect for others and ecclesial) and that we remain open to dialogue, always looking for the truth.

    Proof of this is that they are ready to accept after the statement, both sides, a doctrinal opposition to faith-and essential-land.

    How implicitly accept this principle, by explicit integration in their system and the official interpretation they give, then it is the foundation of modernism and is destructive of all natural and supernatural truth?

    It is accepting the relativism of Tradition, the only true faith.

    2. Can be interpreted in accordance with any Vatican II Tradition. We can help find, if necessary, the "right" interpretation. This is the "hermeneutic of continuity". "The hermeneutic of rupture" (while it is true) must be rejected, because neither teaching nor the post-conciliar Vatican II major have been mistaken. After the discussions and the proposed document, it is only too clear, they would accept us as part of the first and reject the second.

    This is Vatican II endorsement.

    Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre
    The response to our objections which have been sent from Rome by intermediaries, all tended to show that there was no change but a continuation of the Tradition. These are statements that are worse than those of the Council's Declaration on Religious Freedom. This is the real official lie.

    As long as we remain attached to Rome conciliar ideas: religious freedom, ecumenism, collegiality... will be wrong. This is serious because it goes into practical achievements. This is what justifies the Pope's visit to Cuba. Pope visits or receives Communist leaders torturers and murderers with blood on the hands of Christians, as if they were as worthy as decent people (Fideliter No. 70, p.10).


    3. The truth of faith is changing, as dogmas, formulas and dogmatic definitions of faith are only significant approaches to the mysteries of faith. The core remains, everything else evolves with time, culture, historical circumstances, experience and the experience of God's people.

    Therefore Tradition is alive, Tradition is Vatican II, condemnations of liberalism and modernism are exceeded.

    Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre
    That's why they wanted Vatican II is a pastoral council and not a dogmatic council, because they do not believe in infallibility. They do not want a definitive truth. Truth must live and must evolve. It may possibly change over time, with history, science, etc.... Infallibility, she never fixed a formula and a truth that no longer change. That they can not believe it. It is we who are with infallibility, it is not the conciliar Church. It is against the infallibility, it is absolutely certain.

    Cardinal Ratzinger is against the infallibility of the Pope is against the infallibility of its philosophical training. Whether one understands us, we are not against the Pope as he represents all the values &#8203;&#8203;of the apostolic see, which are immutable, the See of Peter, but against the Pope is a Modernist who does not believe in his infallibility, which makes ecumenism. Obviously we are against the conciliar Church which is practically. schismatic , even if they do not accept it. In practice it is virtually a Church excommunicated, because 'it's a modernist church. They are the ones ql: i you excommunicate us, then we want to remain Catholic. We want to stay with the Catholic Pope and the Catholic Church. That's the difference (Fideliter No. 70, p. 8).


    Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre
    But specifically, we are not in the same truth. For them the truth is progressive, the truth changes with time, and Tradition: Vatican II is today. Tradition for us is what the Church has taught since the apostles to the present. For them, no, it's tradition Vatican II resumes itself all that was said earlier. Historical circumstances are such that now we must believe that Vatican II did. This has happened before, here no longer exists. It belongs to the time spent. That is why the Cardinal did not hesitate to say "The council is an anti-Vatican II Syllabus." One wonders how a Cardinal of the Holy Church can say that the Council of Vatican II is an anti-Syllabus, very official act of Pope Pius IX encyclical Quanta Cura in. It is unimaginable.
      I said one day to Cardinal Ratzinger: "Eminence, it is necessary that we choose: either religious freedom as in the Council, or Ie Syllabus of Pius IX. They are contradictory and should be chosen. "Then he told me:" But my Lord we are not at the time of the Syllabus. - Ah! I said, then truth changes with time. So what you say Today?, Tomorrow it will no longer true. There is no way to agree, it is in continual evolution. It becomes impossible to speak."

    They have that in mind. He repeated: "There is more than a church is the Church of Vatican II. Represents Vatican II-Tradition." Unfortunately, the Church opposes Vatican II Tradition. This is not the same (Fideliter No. Occasional -29 to 30 June, p. 15).


    Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre
    Certainly the question of the liturgy and the sacraments is very important, but it's not the most important. The most important is that of faith. For us it is resolved. We have the faith of all times, the Council of Trent, the Catechism of St. Pius X, of all councils and all the popes before Vatican II.
    For years they tried to Rome to show that everything in the Council was fully compliant with the Tradition. Now they are discovered. Cardinal Ratzinger had never spoken with such clarity. There is no tradition. There is more deposition to be transmitted. Tradition in the Church, that is what the Pope said today. You must submit to what the Pope and the bishops said today. For them this is the tradition, the famous tradition alive, the only ground of our condemnation.

    Now they no longer seek to prove that what they say is consistent with what was written Pius IX promulgated to what the Council of Trent. Not all this is over, it is exceeded, as the cardinal says Ratzinger. It is clear and they could have said so sooner. It was not worth PARLET us to discuss. Now is the tyranny of authority, because he no longer any rule. We can no longer refer to the past.

    In a sense the thing now becoming clearer. They always give us more reason. We deal with people who have a different philosophy than ours, another way of seeing, which are influenced by all philosophers and modern subjectivist. For them there is no fixed truth, there is no dogma. Everything is changing. This is an absolutely Masonic design. This is really the destruction of faith. Fortunately, we, we continue to build on the tradition! (Fideliter, no. 79, p. 9).



    Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre
    The Pope wants to unity outside the faith. It is a communion. Communion to whom? What? What?, It is no longer a unit. This can be done only in the unity of the faith. This is what the Church has always taught. It is. Why there were the missionaries, to convert to the catholic faith ic. Now you must not convert. The Church is no longer a hierarchical society, it is a communion. Everything is distorted. It is the destruction of one (1 notion of the Church, Catholicism. This is very serious and this explains why many are Catholics who abandon the faith, (Fidelitei, no. 79, p. 8).  


    THE REAL BATTLE DOCTRINAL

    In all revolutions, "the frenzy" and "terror" there is a time of consolidation in the new situation, a period of institutionalization. On the other hand it is foreseeable that, if returned there, it is gradual. So we know in advance that there will be phases - more confusing: next to a best in practice and perhaps the intention, a little more order (all relative to the worst ) there. will necessarily worsen over the clarity of things, the error will be misleading , and seductive, less obvious and more subtle, in short, much more dangerous... able to deceive even the elect. The error is more ambiguous and dangerous when it collects more to the truth, such as counterfeit currency.

    So we know in advance that our struggle and our position will be less and less understood, more difficult to explain, justify and maintain. Things will necessarily evolve like that: it is necessary to a proper response from us, so to speak, inversely proportional to the confusion.

    The three reasons cited above show that we are in this phase of a false restoration, of a false return. The attitude of the Pope and the Roman Curia, much more confused, contradictory, seductive and has the appearance of Tradition.

    One must distinguish the good aspects of the current pontificate, incidental or occasional, education and leadership doctrine.

    But our fight is doctrinal. This is the field of doctrine that is played in victory or defeat of faith and therefore of all church property.

    Quote from: Cardinal Pie
    One would think that some men do not want some order in the facts as to revive the disorder with impunity in their minds, and they require some physical security in the sky that to have the right to again, without too much danger, the old fabric of their lies for a moment interrupted by fear? fools, for not yet understood that it is ultimately the field of doctrine that is won or lost the battles that decide the future! No, a whole portion of society can not keep it longer this attitude in which we are still condemned to painting: the pen still in hand to teach the same principles, under arms for exterminate the consequences down the happy evening in the street to shoot the acts caused by the doctrines and by the examples in the morning. Contradiction constantly renewed, and that will continue only so long as men who have some authority and some influence over their fellows, sincerely embrace the Christian truth and practice (Works, Vol. II, p. 170-171).


    Quote from: Fideliter
    Cardinal Oddi said recently: "I am convinced that the break will not last long and that Archbishop Lefebvre regain the early Church of Rome." Also there be ready for the Pope and Cardinal Ratzinger felt that "Lefebvre" is not over. In your last letter you said the Holy Father to wait more time for the return of Rome to Tradition. What do you think of a possible resumption of talks with Rome?


    Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre
    We do not have the same way of thinking about reconciliation. Cardinal Ratzinger sees in the direction of reducing us, bring us back to Vatican II. We, as we see a return from Rome to Tradition. It does not get along. It is a dialogue of the deaf. I can not speak much for the future, because mine is behind me. But if I live a little and assuming that by some time Rome will make a call, we want to see us again, resume language, at that time it was I who would pose conditions. I will not accept as being in the situation we found ourselves at conferences. It's over.

    I would ask the question in terms of doctrine: Do you agree with the great encyclicals of all the popes who preceded you. Is - that you agree with Quanta Cura of Pius IX, Immortale Dei, Libertas Leo XIII, Pius X Pascendi, Quas Primas of Pius XI, Pius XII, Humani Generis? Are you in full communion with the pope and with their claims? Do you still accept the anti-modernist oath? Do you support the social reign of Our Lord Jesus Christ?
    If you do not accept the doctrine of your predecessors, it is unnecessary to speak. As you will not have agreed to reform the Council in considering the doctrine of the Popes who preceded you, there is no possibility of dialogue. It's useless.

    The positions would be clearer as well.
    This is not a small thing between us. It is not enough we are told: you can tell the old Mass, but we must accept that. No, it's not that we object to is the doctrine. It is clear. (Fideliter, NiO. 66, p. 12-14).
             

    ENTER THE CONFLICT

    IV. Move towards a practical agreement would be to deny our word and our commitments to our priests, our faithful, and Rome in front of everyone. This would have hugely negative consequences ad intra and ad extra.

    There is no change in the doctrinal point of view from Rome that would justify ours. On the contrary, the discussions have shown they will not accept anything in our criticisms.

    It would be absurd for us to go in the direction of a practical agreement after the result of discussions and findings. Otherwise, one would think that Msgr. Riffan and Father Aulagnier were right.

    Such an approach would show a serious diplomatic weakness on the part of the fraternity, and indeed, more than diplomatic. It would be a lack of consistency, honesty and firmness, which would have effects like loss of credibility and moral authority we enjoy.

    IMPLOSION OF BROTHERHOOD

    V. The mere fact of us down this path will lead us in doubt, dispute, distrust, parties, and especially the division. Many superiors and priests have a legitimate problem of consciousness and will oppose it. The authority and the very principle of authority will be questioned, undermined.

    We can not go to the trailer in our contacts with Rome, we must keep the commands, mark the time and conditions. So we need a line defined in advance, clear and firm, independent of stress and possible maneuvers Roman.

    Accordingly, it is not the moment to change the decision of the Chapter of 2006 (no practical agreement without resolving the doctrinal issue) and it is not right or prudent to embark on preparing for the senses otherwise, before there is in us the conviction, consensus and the decision to change, otherwise the only cause division and, by reaction, a little war, anarchy.

    WARNING ALLOWED

    VI. The warning of RP Ferrer, secretary of the Cardo Cafiizares: "Do not agree with Rome, she can not keep it promise you." We received other warnings similar to Rome.

    KEEP THE LINE

    So what to do, what to say?

    What we have better to do this is to keep the line that has ensured the cohesion and survival of the Brotherhood and gave lots of fruits vis-à-vis Rome to the Church. They hesitate, they begin to sell their building collapses, they can not live without us... Remain steadfast in our policy and expect that there are clear conditions secure and guaranteed. As reported Bishop. Lefebvre after the coronation, it will be, unfortunately, the situation worsens at home... until they are ready to release Vatican II.

    We could answer that views the outcome of the discussions, for faithfulness and loyalty to God, to our consciousness, even to the Church and to the Holy See, we can not engage in a practical way first, but as we have already said, we remain open to cooperate or participate in a study and doctrinal criticism of the Council.

    FOLLOW THE PROVIDENCE

    If they then cut us a break from the constant voltage means that the contacts for the Brotherhood, would be welcome and, in my view, providential. Anyway, knowing they would soon long to talk with us.

    In conclusion, we must not get ahead of Providence, it is she who will solve the crisis. We must be very careful about the temptation sub specie boni , avoid the rush, wait, and only go down that path when there will be no one doubts that Rome (the Pope) wants the Tradition, they have a fair idea of it, it is prudent and that it is the will of God. We need more reasons to change that line to stay in safe and proven that we have. However, the opposite happens.

    Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre
    Without dwelling on the fact that many things were not, the focus was on the high expectations that give rise to the charismatic and Pentecostal. In Rome, they want to be convinced of that. They stubbornly closed their eyes to the catastrophe of the Council and they are trying to accomplish , on the ruin to which they are currently leading the Church. And they want us to enter into this current. If we take a step in that direction, if we submit to authority without warranty, more or less long term, two, three or five years, we will lose the tradition. But we do not want to lose it. We therefore can not submit ourselves to authorities who want us to lose the tradition.

      As I have already stated, if I went to Rome to discuss, it is because I wanted to try to see if we could reach agreement with the ecclesiastical authorities, while putting us away from their liberalism and safeguarding Tradition. Force me has been clear that no agreement could be reached that gives us both warranties and the belief that Rome wanted to sincerely contribute to the preservation of tradition.

    I waited until June 5 to write to the Pope: "I'm sorry, but we can not hear us. You do not have the same goal as us. By this access, ord your goal is to bring us back to the Council. Mine is rather to be able to maintain outside the Council and its influences" (Fideliter, no. 68, p. 15).


    BEWARE OF DANGER!

    For the good of the Brotherhood and Tradition, must be closed as quickly as possible "Pandora's box", to avoid the stigma and the demolition of the authority, disputes, dissensions and divisions, perhaps no return.

    In this sense, the real question to be answered laquelie esfla: what are the other requirements, ad intra and ad extra, in the hypothetical case of a proposal "good", totally acceptable in itself, to try to make an agreement?

    The authorities cited by Archbishop Lefebvre allow us to spread it with clarity and firmness.

    + Bishop Alfonso de Galarreta

    Offline Wessex

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1311
    • Reputation: +1951/-361
    • Gender: Male
    Critique of Doctrinal Preamble by Mgr de Galarreta
    « Reply #14 on: June 28, 2012, 06:21:55 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Ethelred

    By the way, dear Wessex, do you as Englishman in the land of the brave British SSPX district have any hint or information about the question if Bishop Williamson will ignore the illegal expulsion from the General Chapter?



    I am afraid I know nothing of the bishop's plans. I am no longer an active participant in the fortunes of the Society. But the English district is a very secretive one; it would take a lot of research to identify the average SSPX church-goer, if there is such a thing. I was struck by the lack of comments on Ignis Ardens when hearing about the banning of the bishop. It seems the UK district has gone asleep until it is all over.

     

     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16