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Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: Matthew on September 24, 2013, 06:35:16 AM
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Have you thought to yourself, "What good does it do to begin resisting NOW rather than waiting till later, when things are more obviously bad?"
Just look at Vatican II.
Some people left in disgust right away, and immediately began forming the "Traditional Movement". They were willing to give up their "normal" parish life, etc. for the sake of keeping the Catholic Faith, which was being changed/attacked by the Modernism in the form of the New Mass and the new religion being preached.
Other people, however, who were apparently "stronger", stuck it out. How did they fare?
Some eventually got disgusted with the Church itself, and ceased being Catholic. Others were assimilated into the new religion -- today they are indistinguishable from Protestants in their beliefs, morals, and culture.
So they went from "over-trusting" the Church authorities, to abandoning the Church altogether. Such is the frailty of human nature. We must not let that happen to ourselves, or to those we love in the SSPX.
Those who calmly and rationally rejected the first changes turned out to be the more balanced, and the ones taking the safer road.
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You forgot the other group. We grew up questioning the Church about hypocrisy and modernism. The hippie like mushy stuff like holding hands and raising them in the air.
We wanted to remain "Catholic" and not go to atheism, Protestantism, new age or, Wicca like our peers.
We didn't know about sspx, cmri. Etc.
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If not for the Grace of God and the efforts of those first Catholics who "resisted" in the wake of Vatican II, the Catholic Church would not be with us in the traditional sense it is today. How blessed we are to have been given persons with the guts to do the "right" things. The actions of Bp. Thuc, Abp. Lefebvre, Fr. DePauw, Fr. McNamara and many others allowed for pockets of very good Catholics to survive in some very "bad" places in the world.
We ought to pray very much in thanksgiving, and continue the Catholic example shown to us by our Fathers. In the midst of great adversity, sometimes guts is the greatest asset of all, (after the Faith of course).
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You forgot the other group. We grew up questioning the Church about hypocrisy and modernism. The hippie like mushy stuff like holding hands and raising them in the air.
We wanted to remain "Catholic" and not go to atheism, Protestantism, new age or, Wicca like our peers.
We didn't know about sspx, cmri. Etc.
That was me in RCIA. Wanted to be Catholic but was repulsed by the new age, moral relativism they were teaching.
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I think we should also resist NOW to "make a statement" - to show that we know what they're up to, we won't obey blindly, and that we don't agree with this new direction of the SSPX.
If we don't openly resist, they'll interpret it to mean that we accept and agree with all they're doing, and we don't.
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You forgot the other group. We grew up questioning the Church about hypocrisy and modernism. The hippie like mushy stuff like holding hands and raising them in the air.
We wanted to remain "Catholic" and not go to atheism, Protestantism, new age or, Wicca like our peers.
We didn't know about sspx, cmri. Etc.
My "two groups" weren't intended to add up to the whole world population -- just the # of Catholics in the pews in 1969.
There were only 2 possible paths for them -- leave, or stay.
Some might be "staying" because they don't know what else to do. Like you say, they don't necessarily find any OTHER religion appealing. But still, the smart thing is to LEAVE when the Faith is in danger, even if it means staying at home for a while. Few have the guts to do this.*
*Note I said IF YOUR FAITH IS IN DANGER. That means you're at a chapel where the priest is preaching Vatican II's good points to the congregation. If you are at a chapel where things are still OK, I DO NOT advise that you stay home.
The ones "with good reasons" who stayed probably left as soon as they found out about a Traditional chapel nearby. Those with less-than-noble reasons to begin with would have kept going to the Novus Ordo.
The ones who stayed either ended up giving up on Catholicism altogether (because they could never imagine going to Mass in a hotel room or garage... "eeeewww! that's too weird for me!" they'd say to themselves), or assimilating into the new religion.
Those who don't want to give up the SSPX "luxuries" won't want to give them up in 3 or 4 years either, when they get out the tables for monthly so-called Ordinary Form Masses.
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You forgot the other group. We grew up questioning the Church about hypocrisy and modernism. The hippie like mushy stuff like holding hands and raising them in the air.
We wanted to remain "Catholic" and not go to atheism, Protestantism, new age or, Wicca like our peers.
We didn't know about sspx, cmri. Etc.
My "two groups" weren't intended to add up to the whole world population -- just the # of Catholics in the pews in 1969.
There were only 2 possible paths for them -- leave, or stay.
Some might be "staying" because they don't know what else to do. Like you say, they don't necessarily find any OTHER religion appealing. But still, the smart thing is to LEAVE when the Faith is in danger, even if it means staying at home for a while. Few have the guts to do this.
The ones "with good reasons" who stayed probably left as soon as they found out about a Traditional chapel nearby. Those with less-than-noble reasons to begin with would have kept going to the Novus Ordo.
The ones who stayed either ended up giving up on Catholicism altogether (because they could never imagine going to Mass in a hotel room or garage... "eeeewww! that's too weird for me!" they'd say to themselves), or assimilating into the new religion.
Those who don't want to give up the SSPX "luxuries" won't want to give them up in 3 or 4 years either, when they get out the tables for monthly so-called Ordinary Form Masses.
Matthew, perhaps you are a young man, I am old and I was there at the time. There were many who didn't like the changes who simply left the Church entirely, there were many who left immediately who became sedevacantists. It was all over the place. But let me tell you from first hand experience, some of those who left and simply stopped going to Mass went from decent to bad and their children were lost entirely to Catholicism.
Be careful what you urge people to do. It is prudent to warn people, but not to keep telling them they should stop attending Mass. The SSPX is not finished and there are many, many saintly priests within her. There are good Masses and good sermons. It doesn't take long going without them to allow people to begin to be charmed by the world.
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Azul,
Matthew, perhaps you are a young man, I am old and I was there at the time. There were many who didn't like the changes who simply left the Church entirely, there were many who left immediately who became sedevacantists. It was all over the place. But let me tell you from first hand experience, some of those who left and simply stopped going to Mass went from decent to bad and their children were lost entirely to Catholicism.
Be careful what you urge people to do. It is prudent to warn people, but not to keep telling them they should stop attending Mass. The SSPX is not finished and there are many, many saintly priests within her. There are good Masses and good sermons. It doesn't take long going without them to allow people to begin to be charmed by the world.
Whilst Matthew can speak for himself, I can't recall Matthew or anybody telling people to stop attending Mass.
Your "Be careful what you urge people to do" could be perceived as a threat as on Ignis Ardens, supporters of Bishop Fellay regularly insulted their fellow Catholics.
Frances, who participates on this forum has docuмented experiences of harassment and I myself was accused of spreading lies about Fr Paul Morgan. I did no such thing so again reject that allegation.
Regarding the SSPX, take the comment from the editor of The Recusant. The latest edition states clearly the truth. Of the SSPX it writes
"That the SSPX as a bulwark of Tradition is finished, I have no doubt whatsoever.Irrefutable, incontestable proof exist in the form of official declarations of April 2012,July 2012 and June 2013 respectively"
Face the facts, Azul. The SSPX formally surrendered and gave up the fight.What is it resisting?
Patronising comments directed at Matthew are not necessary.
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Azul,
I realise you may skim read the threads. Most people do as time wouldn't allow for detailed reading. You are mistaken if you believe Matthew or anybody here has stated to stop going to Mass. The bulk of your comment is good but rather disingenuous to say that people said to stop going to Mass. This is the first I have heard of it.
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:pray: for Fr. James Doran, SSPX. All I'm going to say about him. Keep praying for priests of the Resistance.
For my part, harassment has come from "sspx" laity, not priests. It is annoying, but ultimately meaningless. I don't "belong" to the sspx and most laity do not, either.
The people who went along with Vat. II back in the late 60s and early 70s and who remained are now elderly. Their children who grew up with it, (yours truly, age 53), mostly lost their faith having never received it in the first place. The others who, despite the nonsense, KNEW there was a God and wanted to serve Him are today, found all over Protestantism. Only a very, very few came out of either paganism or Protestantism to become traditional Catholics. It is a true grace which we never dare take for granted.
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There are people in the Resistance who do say to stop going to the SSPX Masses. I am one of them. By going, you give the impression that you condone the new change of direction. There is no getting around this.
By going and not contributing money, as some people are proud to announce, you are behaving in a dishonest fashion, accepting the services that they offer without paying for them.
People are afraid to stop going. They seem to think that God will only operate through the normal channels of offering Grace and therefore will be displeased by our staying away.
Yes, if we stay away due to laziness, He will be offended. If we stay away on principle, He may actually be more pleased and will offer Grace for our efforts.
Please review the arguments and suggestions offered on our blog:
http://www.ecclesiamilitans.com/
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I think there's been some misunderstanding, so allow me to clarify:
My main point, and my reason for starting this thread, was to point out the danger to those who choose to stay ignorant, who choose to give Bishop Fellay unlimited amounts of trust, or who plan to stay at the SSPX indefinitely.
Because the same thing happened 43 years ago -- some people gave WAY too much trust to their priests, the Pope, etc. and they chose to stay indefinitely, like it was the only decent choice (or the only choice). Many of them ended up going from SUPER trust to NO trust as they apostatized!
It's a point that needs to be thought about deeply.
It's the same as the man who fasts too much and then gives up fasting out of exasperation, and embraces gluttony. At first, the man seems to be more holy. But since he is objectively doing too much, it's actually bad. The bad results might come later, but they will come.
Likewise, those who wish to "trust" the SSPX seem to have nothing we can chastise them for. But that trust WILL come back to bite them, if they end up going Novus Ordo, giving up on all organizations, losing the Faith, etc.
It's always good to calmly and rationally pursue the truth and what is right.
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By going and not contributing money, as some people are proud to announce, you are behaving in a dishonest fashion, accepting the services that they offer without paying for them.
I'm sorry, but you are operating on a false concept of the SSPX (which is merely a branch on the tree of the Catholic Church.)
The Church isn't "paid" for their "services". The priests and bishops that make up the Church hierarchy have a duty to feed the flock -- to offer the Sacraments and preach the Faith. They have to take care of every soul that needs the ministry of the Church -- including the poor, homeless, and penniless.
The Faithful, meanwhile, have a duty to support the Church.
We're not exactly "purchasing" Holy Communion, nor is there a fee for Absolution. There is actually a word for that: Simony.
As long as we're supporting the Church, we are justified in this matter. That can be Fr. Pfeiffer's group or Bishop Williamson, or we can give money directly to our SSPX priest (recommended). We need to show our SSPX priests that they won't starve if they do the right thing and oppose the liberal orientation.
We DON'T need to necessarily put any money in the collection plate, especially since we know now that the organization itself is beginning to rot from the top down.
If you are worried that your particular chapel is in danger of becoming unviable, feel free to do something about it. But most chapels won't miss your contributions. The SSPX has *plenty* of money. Just look at how they're spending it now! Slick websites, ad campaigns, hiring an expensive branding agency. Spreading propaganda to the four corners of the earth (Fr. Themann's conference, producing propaganda videos starring Fr. Rostand). They're not hurting for money.
And I almost forgot -- building a massive Disneyland seminary (when other, more economical options would do). They seem to be planning for a massive influx from the Novus Ordo. Do they know something we don't -- perhaps a new religious order that's flagellating themselves night and day for conversions? Because if there isn't something like that going on, there's no reason to expect a bunch of TRUE conversions to the Faith/Tradition (which are the same thing).
No, what they're preparing is for an "opening up" to the modern world, Vatican II style. It isn't that a bunch of people are going to suddenly give up contraception, liberalism and embrace tradition -- no, it's the other way around.
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Azul,
I apologize -- I wrote this when I was a bit tired, and didn't make the necessary clarifications.
Here is how I clarified it now:
Some might be "staying" because they don't know what else to do. Like you say, they don't necessarily find any OTHER religion appealing. But still, the smart thing is to LEAVE when the Faith is in danger, even if it means staying at home for a while. Few have the guts to do this.*
*Note I said IF YOUR FAITH IS IN DANGER. That means you're at a chapel where the priest is preaching Vatican II's good points to the congregation, or other funny business is going on. If you are at a chapel where things are still OK, I DO NOT advise that you stay home.
And by "choose to stay" I mean "choose to stay indefinitely, with no future plans to leave".
Someone who plans to stay for a while, or "until X happens" is not really "staying". He's just hanging out until something ideal comes along (Resistance/Trad chapel)
Vatican II = evil.
Defending Vatican II even a little bit = defending evil a little bit
Saying Vatican II is 95% good = saying evil is 95% good
As I said recently, one can't castigate Vatican II enough. It was an unmitigated disaster, and in fact it's the matter of the Third Secret of Fatima. There were three chastisements that occurred in the Twentieth Century: WWI, WW2, and Vatican II. The last of these caused more damage to the world than the previous two.
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First, my comment about contributing is an analogy. It is not appropriate to continue to go to the SSPX Chapels to get the Sacraments without contributing to the upkeep. Sorry, I am not convinced otherwise, and I do not condone simony.
Second, I maintain that people who do not leave, do not leave. The reason for not leaving is irrelevant and conveys the impression that they condone the policies of the place that they are going to.
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I don't think anyone is giving Bishop Fellay unlimited amounts of trust. I am positive that is he did a bum deal with Benedict/Francis and sealed it with a concelebrated mass with a large purple dinosaur appearing to keep the children happy then 100% of the laity and 99 percent of the priests would join the resistance.
But he didn't.
No deal was made with Rome.
They trust him enough to continue for now. It's not unlimited trust though. Just more than resistance people have.
SVs did not trust Lefebvre. That proved to be a bad call.
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A brief log on to clarify a point. My comment to Azul was specific. Nobody has stated stop going to Mass. It's very easy to have a misunderstanding on an internet forum about it. Azul has got it wrong in this case.
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I think Bp. W's support base was once debated on Angelqueen and there was the idea that, if he were no longer a member of the Society, he would exit with a large chunk of the English-speaking world. Well, this never happened and even Fr. Morgan reconsidered his options. I think it has to be accepted that today's priests and laity are more worldly and circuмspect than ever and do not see religion as all-embracing. If there are part-time trad priests that wear shorts 'out of hours' and pursue questionable hobbies, we may have moved into an era of salaried professional practioners. Once Menzingen accepts doctrinal freedom, then folk are given a free pass too enjoy today's goodies without penalty. And the specific traditional label really means an interest in a past culture and preserving quaint practices.
Profiling the Society's future membership and laity seems to be part of this great step (or leap) forward. Funds seem to be plentiful, so a cull of undesirables is affordable. BUt converting the Society into a small elitist body inside the overcrowded approved trad market would be a challenge. The defiant independent edge would be lost but maybe it would benefit greatly from Bergoglio-type excess and still remain in communion!
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There are people in the Resistance who do say to stop going to the SSPX Masses. I am one of them. By going, you give the impression that you condone the new change of direction. There is no getting around this.
This is merely one man's opinion, easily refuted by another's.
By going and not contributing money, as some people are proud to announce, you are behaving in a dishonest fashion, accepting the services that they offer without paying for them.
People are afraid to stop going. They seem to think that God will only operate through the normal channels of offering Grace and therefore will be displeased by our staying away.
Yes, if we stay away due to laziness, He will be offended. If we stay away on principle, He may actually be more pleased and will offer Grace for our efforts.
Please review the arguments and suggestions offered on our blog:
http://www.ecclesiamilitans.com/
I was going to formulate a more detailed response to your post, but I will refrain and merely say this:
This isn't a matter of dishonesty, but a matter of prudence. You say God knows knows if you're staying away for the right reasons, and I will agree; however, I know that God knows if you are staying with the Society Masses for the right reasons as well.
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You forgot the other group. We grew up questioning the Church about hypocrisy and modernism. The hippie like mushy stuff like holding hands and raising them in the air.
We wanted to remain "Catholic" and not go to atheism, Protestantism, new age or, Wicca like our peers.
We didn't know about sspx, cmri. Etc.
Thank you!!! You said it so well, and you speak for a number of us! We just didn't know anybody was keeping the "old way" alive.
Our experience has been that those who "stayed with Tradition" back then were fortunate enough to have encountered one of the very few Traditional priests who bucked the tide and refused to go along with the changes of Vatican II. This blessing was less likely if you lived in the bigger metropolitan areas.
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If not for the Grace of God and the efforts of those first Catholics who "resisted" in the wake of Vatican II, the Catholic Church would not be with us in the traditional sense it is today. How blessed we are to have been given persons with the guts to do the "right" things. The actions of Bp. Thuc, Abp. Lefebvre, Fr. DePauw, Fr. McNamara and many others allowed for pockets of very good Catholics to survive in some very "bad" places in the world.
We ought to pray very much in thanksgiving, and continue the Catholic example shown to us by our Fathers. In the midst of great adversity, sometimes guts is the greatest asset of all, (after the Faith of course).
It took the priests to make it work.
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Wessex, I believe that +Williamson did not exit with a large chunk of the English speaking world because he has never stood up and said "Follow Me!". I've spoke to a few SSPX priests about a year ago now. Some of the comments they made about the Resistance was "They don't even have a Bishop. For any religious order to vialble, they must have a Bishop".
I think things have settled a bit, but had +Williamson stood up strong, I'm thinking that perhaps the number of resistance priests would be larger.
Just my 2 cents.
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Hopefully the new seminary will turn out well.
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Hopefully the new seminary will turn out well.
I'm guessing that we know which one you are talking about, but it might be safest to clarify, as in "the new Kentucky seminary".