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Offline chrstnoel1

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Contra Cekadam
« on: March 11, 2018, 04:31:51 AM »
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  • Contra Cekadam by Fr. Francois Chazal - Print version (book)
    https://www.chantcd.com/index.php/Contra-Cekadam

    AVAILABLE NOW - $10 plus shipping.



    Dear N...........,
    I have finished the Contra Cekadam and it is going to the printer.
    Can you post the Bishop s preface on Cathinfo, and announce the book should be available in May



    PREFACE  (OR  FOREWORD)  TO  “CONTRA  CEKADAM”.


    Great Doctors of the Church have written works named from the author of the errors being refuted by the Doctor, for instance St Augustine's “Against Cresconius” or St Jerome's “Against Jovinianus”. Both Cresconius and Jovinianus have today been largely or altogether forgotten, but the works of the Doctors live on because the Doctors lay out good Catholic doctrine in refuting  the errors. In the same way Fr Chazal names his refutation of sedevacantism (the  See-vacant doctrine that the Popes since Vatican II have not been Popes at all) from Fr Anthony Cekada, a long-standing and outstanding defender of the sedevacantist position. Fr Cekada's arguments and opinions have acted like the grain of sand inside an oyster, which by the irritation which it produces makes the oyster produce a pearl.

    Fr Cekada argues as though sedevacantism is not merely one opinion in a difficult and highly disputed question. He presents it as a dogmatic certainty, to refuse which means that one is not Catholic. Fr Chazal has a measure of sympathy for sedevacantists (he prefers them to liberals), and he shows charity towards Fr Cekada, but the great merit of “Contra Cekadam” is that he proves to any reasonable reader that, at the very least, no Catholic is obliged to accept the sedevacantist position. Fr Cekada writes as though he is a master of theology and of Canon Law, but Fr Chazal has looked up the theologians and the Canons in question and he proves that they are far from proving that the See of Rome has been vacant at any time since Vatican II.

    To do this Fr Chazal goes in turn through the Church's theologians, canonists and Popes, St Thomas Aquinas, Scripture and history with a final resort to common sense. Let us here evoke briefly the theologians and the canonists on whom sedevacantists rely heavily.

    Their favourite theologian is St Robert Bellarmine who held that any Pope becoming a heretic automatically ceases to be Pope. But Fr Chazal opens the books and finds that this opinion is by no means the common opinion of Church theologians, and that Bellarmine himself requires that the Pope concerned be first given two warnings before he is deposed. For indeed, as many other famous theologians argue, the Pope is not just an individual who can lose the faith personally, but he is also head of a worldwide society which cannot function without a head. Nor does the personal loss of faith necessarily impede his headship of the Church. Therefore they argue, for the sake of the Church as a whole, God preserves the Pope's headship until the highest competent Church authorities can make a public declaration of his heresy (to prevent public chaos in the Church), and then and only then does God depose him. No such declaration has been made since Vatican II.

    Sedevacantists also love Canon 188.4 which states that public defection from the faith on the part of a cleric means automatic loss of his office. But many other Canons and the other sections of Canon 188 clearly show that this “public defection” must include the cleric's intent to resign by such acts as, for instance, attempting marriage or joining a sect,  and also there must be a warning and official monitions before the cleric loses his office. Common justice calls it the right of self-defence.

    In fact Fr Chazal presents a multitude of arguments which prove the human wisdom and patience of Mother Church in dealing with faulty ministers. For the sake of the Church as a whole, it is not only the Pope who does not have his head immediately cut off, as sedevacantists seem to think. The wheels of God may grind exceeding small but they also grind slowly, as the proverb says.  

    If anybody wishes to learn just how little the position of the sedevacantists is binding on Catholics, by all means let them read this brief and entertaining study by Fr Chazal.

                                                                        +Richard Williamson,  Broadstairs, 20 February, 2018.



    "It is impious to say, 'I respect every religion.' This is as much as to say: I respect the devil as much as God, vice as much as virtue, falsehood as much as truth, dishonesty as much as honesty, Hell as much as Heaven."
    Fr. Michael Muller, The Church and Her Enemies


    Offline chrstnoel1

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    Re: Contra Cekadam from Fr. Chazal
    « Reply #1 on: March 11, 2018, 06:31:03 AM »
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  • Dear N...........,
    I have finished the Contra Cekadam and it is going to the printer.
    Can you post the Bishop s preface on Cathinfo, and announce the book should be available in May



    PREFACE  (OR  FOREWORD)  TO  “CONTRA  CEKADAM”.
     
     
    Great Doctors of the Church have written works named from the author of the errors being refuted by the Doctor, for instance St Augustine's “Against Cresconius” or St Jerome's “Against Jovinianus”. Both Cresconius and Jovinianus have today been largely or altogether forgotten, but the works of the Doctors live on because the Doctors lay out good Catholic doctrine in refuting  the errors. In the same way Fr Chazal names his refutation of sedevacantism (the  See-vacant doctrine that the Popes since Vatican II have not been Popes at all) from Fr Anthony Cekada, a long-standing and outstanding defender of the sedevacantist position. Fr Cekada's arguments and opinions have acted like the grain of sand inside an oyster, which by the irritation which it produces makes the oyster produce a pearl.
     
    Fr Cekada argues as though sedevacantism is not merely one opinion in a difficult and highly disputed question. He presents it as a dogmatic certainty, to refuse which means that one is not Catholic. Fr Chazal has a measure of sympathy for sedevacantists (he prefers them to liberals), and he shows charity towards Fr Cekada, but the great merit of “Contra Cekadam” is that he proves to any reasonable reader that, at the very least, no Catholic is obliged to accept the sedevacantist position. Fr Cekada writes as though he is a master of theology and of Canon Law, but Fr Chazal has looked up the theologians and the Canons in question and he proves that they are far from proving that the See of Rome has been vacant at any time since Vatican II.
     
    To do this Fr Chazal goes in turn through the Church's theologians, canonists and Popes, St Thomas Aquinas, Scripture and history with a final resort to common sense. Let us here evoke briefly the theologians and the canonists on whom sedevacantists rely heavily.
     
    Their favourite theologian is St Robert Bellarmine who held that any Pope becoming a heretic automatically ceases to be Pope. But Fr Chazal opens the books and finds that this opinion is by no means the common opinion of Church theologians, and that Bellarmine himself requires that the Pope concerned be first given two warnings before he is deposed. For indeed, as many other famous theologians argue, the Pope is not just an individual who can lose the faith personally, but he is also head of a worldwide society which cannot function without a head. Nor does the personal loss of faith necessarily impede his headship of the Church. Therefore they argue, for the sake of the Church as a whole, God preserves the Pope's headship until the highest competent Church authorities can make a public declaration of his heresy (to prevent public chaos in the Church), and then and only then does God depose him. No such declaration has been made since Vatican II.
     
    Sedevacantists also love Canon 188.4 which states that public defection from the faith on the part of a cleric means automatic loss of his office. But many other Canons and the other sections of Canon 188 clearly show that this “public defection” must include the cleric's intent to resign by such acts as, for instance, attempting marriage or joining a sect,  and also there must be a warning and official monitions before the cleric loses his office. Common justice calls it the right of self-defence.
     
    In fact Fr Chazal presents a multitude of arguments which prove the human wisdom and patience of Mother Church in dealing with faulty ministers. For the sake of the Church as a whole, it is not only the Pope who does not have his head immediately cut off, as sedevacantists seem to think. The wheels of God may grind exceeding small but they also grind slowly, as the proverb says.  
     
    If anybody wishes to learn just how little the position of the sedevacantists is binding on Catholics, by all means let them read this brief and entertaining study by Fr Chazal.
     
                                                                         +Richard Williamson,  Broadstairs, 20 February, 2018.
     
    "It is impious to say, 'I respect every religion.' This is as much as to say: I respect the devil as much as God, vice as much as virtue, falsehood as much as truth, dishonesty as much as honesty, Hell as much as Heaven."
    Fr. Michael Muller, The Church and Her Enemies


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Contra Cekadam
    « Reply #2 on: March 11, 2018, 07:39:49 AM »
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  • Yes, people routinely misconstrue Father Chazal's position as being anti-sedevacantist.  He lashed out only against DOGMATIC sedevacantism, but was theologically sympathetic towards the general arguments behind it, conceding right out of the gate that the V2 popes are indeed manifest heretics.  Yet he pointed out the problems with straight sedevacantism, and at the same time took some jabs at traditional R&R ... coming to rest at what can be described as something akin to sedeprivationism.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Contra Cekadam
    « Reply #3 on: March 11, 2018, 11:40:36 AM »
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  • I forgot to upload his latest publications --
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
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    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Contra Cekadam
    « Reply #4 on: March 11, 2018, 11:50:47 AM »
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  • I don't know about Ladislaus's comments regarding Fr. Chazal and his take on sedevacantism. (Ladislaus has spread the idea that Fr. Chazal is a sedeprivationist).  Fr. Chazal's video and what I understood from it just took Fr. Hesse's argument that cuм Ex Apostolatus was only Church law regarding a papal election and can and has been modified. Then Fr. Chazal tossed out the classic material-formal heretic argument (as the R and R has done to modify their stance since Francis!), which Fr. Hesse certainly believed. Fr. Hesse also said he would become a sedevacantist if any pope ever canonized Luther (which leads me to believe he would be a sedevacantist or sedeprivationist today).

    Problem was that Fr. Chazal equates Fr. Cakada to be a sedeprovationist because Fr. Cekada says that Francis couldn't have lost a papacy he never would have had due to a faulty election. Then he mislabels this as sedeprivationism. I prefer to follow the line of thought of Fr. Hesse than both Frs. Chazal and Cekada, personally. But as for what Fr. Chazal says in the video I post, I don't think he has any clear and organized argument against Fr. Cekada (especially being his misunderstanding of the Cassiacuм Thesis).

    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Contra Cekadam
    « Reply #5 on: March 11, 2018, 12:07:50 PM »
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  • I don't know about Ladislaus's comments regarding Fr. Chazal and his take on sedevacantism. (Ladislaus has spread the idea that Fr. Chazal is a sedeprivationist).

    Except that this video is from 2015.  In the more recent video from last year, Father mentioned that he had never really studied the pope issue in depth before, and then proceeded to articulate a position very much akin to sedeprivationism after having read various theological works on the subject.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Contra Cekadam
    « Reply #6 on: March 11, 2018, 12:11:31 PM »
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  • Quote
    But as for what Fr. Chazal says in the video I post, I don't think he has any clear and organized argument against Fr. Cekada
    Fr Chazal says quite clearly that Fr Cekada's 'dogmatic' sedevacantism is not supported by theologians.  In other words, there is not a 100% consensus on what to do with a heretical pope.  Fr Chazal's purpose was not to invent some new label, or to invent a new 'group'.  He merely wants the record to show that in the present times, there is not "only one way" to look at the situation.  This was his purpose and he succeeded without question.

    So if Fr Cekada would just chill out and stop drawing lines in the sand (of his own making), then we could all get along.  

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Contra Cekadam
    « Reply #7 on: March 11, 2018, 12:16:18 PM »
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  • Except that this video is from 2015.  In the more recent video from last year, Father mentioned that he had never really studied the pope issue in depth before, and then proceeded to articulate a position very much akin to sedeprivationism after having read various theological works on the subject.
     Well, let's see what his book will argue but in my opinion his argument has been very confused and insufficient so far. If you watch the video he seems to have read quite a bit. His principle argument is the 3 papal bulls changing  the laws of an election. So he attacks the cuм Ex Apostolatus argument of Fr. Cekada, but in doing so he claims that all sedevacantists have now changed and become sedeprivationist because he thinks sedeprivationism says that a heretic can't be elected. He lumps Savanarola together with sedeprivationism. And says he doesn't care about the material-formal heretic argument. Basically, he's all over the place and doesn't seem to have understood a lot of what he argues after taking bits and pieces from Fr. Hesse. If his book is going to be any better, not sure. Frankly, I'm tired of suddenly these books arguing that any non-Catholic can be the leader of the Catholic Church. Salza did one and a Brazilian author did one about a heretic pope. If this book proves to be another one, they shouldn't be surprised if its intention has the opposite effect, turning people to the sedes.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Contra Cekadam
    « Reply #8 on: March 11, 2018, 12:18:14 PM »
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  • Fr Chazal says quite clearly that Fr Cekada's 'dogmatic' sedevacantism is not supported by theologians.  In other words, there is not a 100% consensus on what to do with a heretical pope.  Fr Chazal's purpose was not to invent some new label, or to invent a new 'group'.  He merely wants the record to show that in the present times, there is not "only one way" to look at the situation.  This was his purpose and he succeeded without question.

    So if Fr Cekada would just chill out and stop drawing lines in the sand (of his own making), then we could all get along.  
    To say again, I don't support Fr. Cekada's position. But Fr. Chazal scraps the material-formal heretic argument and uses other points from Fr. Hesse. Not a great way to proceed.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Contra Cekadam
    « Reply #9 on: March 11, 2018, 12:19:40 PM »
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  • Well, let's see what his book will argue but in my opinion his argument has been very confused and insufficient so far.

    Yes, we'll have to wait and see.  Does he back away in the book once he realizes that he had basically promoted a flavor of sedeprivationism?  I hope not.  If he backs away for other reasons, that's fine.  But it would hurt his credibility in my mind if he were to alter his theological conclusions for emotional reasons (fear of being labelled a sedeprivationist).  There's too much of that going on lately, IMO.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Contra Cekadam
    « Reply #10 on: March 11, 2018, 12:34:12 PM »
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  • Meg, there's no need to be fearful of sedeprivationism.  No need to be fearful of sedevacantism, either.  They are both theories trying to explain, in theological reasons, our present situation.  As long as someone or their group is not dogmatic, then I don't see a problem with a theory.  In the Church, everything is a theory until She states otherwise.  None of these are condemned theories, so there's nothing to be scared of.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Contra Cekadam
    « Reply #11 on: March 11, 2018, 12:45:42 PM »
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  • Quote
    The various flavors of sedewhateverism are just plain stupid. They show a lack of faith.
    Ha ha.  These various sede ideas have been around for CENTURIES.  You act like they were invented post-V2.

    Such things are "stupid" to those who do not have the patience, motivation and aptitude to study the details of canon law and theological principles.  I don't know if you have the aptitude to study such things, but you definitely don't have the proper mental outlook on them.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Contra Cekadam
    « Reply #12 on: March 11, 2018, 12:58:50 PM »
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  • Why are you so bitter and fearful?

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Contra Cekadam
    « Reply #13 on: March 11, 2018, 02:16:06 PM »
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  • I wouldn't go so far as to say that. There are plenty of good  (classical) arguments on the R and R position. Fr. Hesse is one that I continue to mention. To affirm that it is an error is to put yourself in the category of dogmatic sede-ism...is it not? Clearly, the situation will be resolved when the crisis in the Church ends and a true Catholic Pope sorts out this mess (probably'll take 3 or 4 successive popes to sort it all out). Until then, no declaration from the Church on the post-conciliar popes leaves no certainty as to what position holds true.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Contra Cekadam
    « Reply #14 on: March 11, 2018, 02:19:16 PM »
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  • Well, it doesn't really matter now. It's obvious as to how the Resistance will fall. Eventually, there will be no Resistance. +ABL's work and efforts were pretty much for nothing.
    +ABL's works have saved countless souls and propagated the Faith in many pockets in the world. The Resistance is growing and has done great work in Brazil, where the Society has little and Campos defected greatly. To use the words "for nothing" is an abuse of language and possibly sinful.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...