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Author Topic: "As We Are"  (Read 3119 times)

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Offline NaomhAdhamhnan

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Re: "As We Are"
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2021, 12:49:02 PM »
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  • The promotion of the vaccine was the final straw for me. I'm now even hearing that priests are taking the vaccine.  :facepalm: Surely that makes these priests compromised!?
    Now I understand why such vitriol was spewed against those who question the "gene therapy" - and called them "Protestant fundamentalists" - Kyrie eleison!
    "When human beings have been brutalised by impurity, they will allow themselves to be enslaved without making any attempt to react." ~ Fr. Fahey


    Ut sciat omnis in terra quia est Deus in Israel!

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: "As We Are"
    « Reply #16 on: April 11, 2021, 01:03:13 PM »
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  • Sean, I'm a bit confused -- in your description of "the 3 types of SSPXers", you describe BOTH the 2nd and 3rd categories as "2nd and 3rd generation SSPXers". Are categories #2 and #3 really both from the same generations? Just wondering if there were any typos there.

    I would add another group -- FIRST GENERATION SSPXers, mostly Baby Boomers, who have so much invested in the SSPX (time, youth, money over decades of putting money in the collection) they are suffering from the Sunk Cost fallacy -- they've invested so much, they're committed, even if the outlook today for the SSPX is objectively hopeless. Also, they're getting old and tired, and have no energy for "The Fight" (Tradition) -- according to Boomer culture, they have worked hard all their life, and by gum they DESERVE an easy, laid-back retirement for their Autumn years. "I worked hard to build up this church, and by gum, I'm gonna enjoy it!" They are frequently found saying things like, "I ain't goin' back to the catacombs! I paid my dues back in the 70's. We did the garage Masses, basement Masses, hotel Masses......."
    I've been with the SSPX since it started and most of it's existence since then, so I think that makes me one of the baby boomer SSPXers, and while I agree much of your post is true, I think most first generation SSPXers like me remain because, regardless of the crap SSPX higher ups are working on, 1) the priests are valid, therefore 2) the Mass and sacraments are valid, and 3) there is no error preached from the pulpit at the SSPX I attend. All 3 of these things together are what is essential for us, if any one of the three were missing, I believe that most 1st generationers would flat out leave. Whether that would mean finding another place to go with more travel time involved, or even back to the catacombs, we will do what we need to do for us and ours.

    I think I can speak for Gen 1 SSPXers and say if any of the above 3 things are lacking, then you need to leave. And that goes for wherever you go for the mass and sacraments, not just the SSPX. 



         
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline KevinBrumley

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    Re: "As We Are"
    « Reply #17 on: April 12, 2021, 11:12:08 PM »
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  • Unfortunately, because the Archbishop changed at times, from being very negative against the Conciliar Church after the 1976 suspension to hopeful and accommodating after the ɛƖɛctıon of JP2 to even more negative after Assisi and then the excommunications ... we see a lot of selective quoting of +Lefebvre on both sides.  So, for instance, Xavier cherry picks a quote from 1980 where +Lefebvre was more conciliatory and tries to present that as the TRUE +Lefebvre ... and ignores anything that doesn’t suit his agenda.  He applies this confirmation bias to every issue he argues about and shows himself to be completely dishonest.  It’s a simple fact that +Lefebvre changed over the years from a +Fellay-like position to coming a hair’s breadth from sedevacantists (by his own admission).  Bishop de Castro Mayer actually did go sede before he died.

    Despite this, however, I strongly agree with Sean’s assessment of the overall shift.  I was at STAS right after the consecrations but was also with SSPX (knew Father Williamson) for a few years before.  There is no question that +Lefebvre and the SSPX were intransigent regarding the errors of the Conciliarists ... similar to the Resistance mindset ... and the +Lefebvre shifting had only to do with the practical consideration of whether and to what extent to be in communion with the putative hierarchy ... given that, in their mind, they both were and were not the Catholic hierarchy ( something that the material vs. formal distinction and Fr. Chazal’s approach resolve nicely ).

    Having experienced both, I firmly agree with Sean that the true spirit of the SSPX is with the Resistance ... while the SSPX has morphed into an FSSP type of group with very little difference.
    The SSPX is not yet like the FSSP, at least in terms of doctrine, though they have contributed to this perception by the curiously friendly relations with bishops.  There has always been a very fine line when one admits those in authority have gravely erred while yet retaining their authority whereas the SV dispenses with this difficulty rather nicely, though not without creating their own major theological problems.  This is normally a purely practical question, similar to how one ought to interact with heretics, Jews, etc.  The "changes" of ABL are not really formal or substantial changes.  
    Consider this: One day you are friendly with Michael and the next day you are angry with Michael.  Did you change or did Michael change?  Michael merely gave the occasion for treating him two different ways and you are merely responding to him under different aspects.  I suppose one could say Lad "changed" but the question is, why or in what manner?  What did Michael do to provoke you?  Nevertheless, are not both your dispositions directed towards the same formal end and controlled by the intellect and unity of purpose?  
    I think those who jumped ship and started their own groups sense this difficulty so they try to make what is practical into something theoretical and substantially involving the faith.  Kind of like the SV who isn't satisfied with the notion that his opinion on the Pope is merely his opinion, no, he must raise it the the level of a theological conclusion!
    But what of something like their so-called rebranding?  Isn't that purely practical?  No, I don't believe so.  I posit that to attempt to remake your "image" for suspect reasons while simultaneously insulting those who came before you is entirely another question.  Here, faulty thinking led to an action, whereas above, correct thinking led to two different dispositions.   

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: "As We Are"
    « Reply #18 on: April 13, 2021, 04:54:31 AM »
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  • The SSPX is not yet like the FSSP, at least in terms of doctrine, though they have contributed to this perception by the curiously friendly relations with bishops.  There has always been a very fine line when one admits those in authority have gravely erred while yet retaining their authority whereas the SV dispenses with this difficulty rather nicely, though not without creating their own major theological problems.  This is normally a purely practical question, similar to how one ought to interact with heretics, Jews, etc.  The "changes" of ABL are not really formal or substantial changes.  
    Consider this: One day you are friendly with Michael and the next day you are angry with Michael.  Did you change or did Michael change?  Michael merely gave the occasion for treating him two different ways and you are merely responding to him under different aspects.  I suppose one could say Lad "changed" but the question is, why or in what manner?  What did Michael do to provoke you?  Nevertheless, are not both your dispositions directed towards the same formal end and controlled by the intellect and unity of purpose?  
    I think those who jumped ship and started their own groups sense this difficulty so they try to make what is practical into something theoretical and substantially involving the faith.  Kind of like the SV who isn't satisfied with the notion that his opinion on the Pope is merely his opinion, no, he must raise it the the level of a theological conclusion!
    But what of something like their so-called rebranding?  Isn't that purely practical?  No, I don't believe so.  I posit that to attempt to remake your "image" for suspect reasons while simultaneously insulting those who came before you is entirely another question.  Here, faulty thinking led to an action, whereas above, correct thinking led to two different dispositions.  

    You are delusional.

    If Bishop Fellay gives the nod to religious liberty in a CNS interview; if he accepts the hermeneutic of continuity as a means to accepting conciliar errors (as he did in the April 15, 2012 doctrinal declaration), these are significant doctrinal deviations.

    Then at the practical level, if the SSPX starts accepting ministerial assistance from the ICK and diocesan clergy (as in the African District), this is a serious rebuke of Lefebvre’s position.

    Rather than jumping ship too early, is this not a sign these people should have jumped ship years ago, before they could be conditioned into accepting ministrations from Lefebvre’s doctrinally compromised enemies?

    In fact, why should the SSPX even exist today, if the faithful can just go to a diocesan indult or ICK Mass?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: "As We Are"
    « Reply #19 on: April 13, 2021, 05:17:18 AM »
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  • I would invite Kevin to meditate upon Bishop de Galarreta’s “Reflections On a Roman Proposal,” from which these words are taken:

    “IV.  ENTRY INTO CONTRADICTION To move towards a practical agreement would be to deny our word and our commitments to our priests, our faithful, and Rome in front of everyone. This would have hugely negative consequences ad intra and ad extra. There is no change in the doctrinal point of view from Rome that would justify ours. On the contrary, the discussions have shown they will not accept anything in our criticisms.  It would be absurd for us to go in the direction of a practical agreement after the result of discussions and findings. Otherwise, one would think that Msgr. Rifan and Father Aulagnier were right.  Such an approach would show a serious diplomatic weakness on the part of the Fraternity, and indeed, more than diplomatic. It would be a lack of consistency, honesty and firmness, which would have effects like loss of credibility and moral authority we enjoy.  

    V.  IMPLOSION OF THE FRATERNITY  The mere fact of going down this path will lead us to doubt, dispute, distrust, parties, and especially division. Many superiors and priests have a legitimate problem of conscience and will oppose it.  Authority and the very principle of authority will be questioned, undermined.  We cannot join the caravan [**aller a la remorque] in our contacts with Rome, we must keep the commands, mark the time and conditions. So we need a line defined in advance, clear and firm, independent of stress and possible Roman maneuvers.  Accordingly, it is not the moment to change the decision of the Chapter of 2006 (no practical agreement without resolving the doctrinal issue) and it is not right or prudent to embark on preparing minds otherwise, before there is in us the conviction, consensus and the decision to change, otherwise it will only cause division and, by reaction, squabbling, anarchy.”

    And this is in fact what did happen.  Why blame the Resistance, when the blame for the present state of affairs rests squarely with Bishop Fellay?

    He chose the loophole de Galarreta gave him (ie., start preparing minds and building a consensus to change, via branding, etc.). 

    My book was written to highlight that process.

    Ps: The entire docuмent should be read:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/reflections-on-a-roman-proposal-(full-text)/
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: "As We Are"
    « Reply #20 on: April 13, 2021, 05:47:27 AM »
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  • You are delusional.

    If Bishop Fellay gives the nod to religious liberty in a CNS interview; if he accepts the hermeneutic of continuity as a means to accepting conciliar errors (as he did in the April 15, 2012 doctrinal declaration), these are significant doctrinal deviations.

    Then at the practical level, if the SSPX starts accepting ministerial assistance from the ICK and diocesan clergy (as in the African District), this is a serious rebuke of Lefebvre’s position.

    Rather than jumping ship too early, is this not a sign these people should have jumped ship years ago, before they could be conditioned into accepting ministrations from Lefebvre’s doctrinally compromised enemies?

    In fact, why should the SSPX even exist today, if the faithful can just go to a diocesan indult or ICK Mass?

    Sean,

    KevinBrumley would almost be cute if he were, say, 5 years old -- with such naivete. The idea that doctrine doesn't matter, that a good number of significant changes can happen without an underlying doctrinal shift/cause.

    I have to tell him "Sorry, DOCTRINE MATTERS." Anyone with a brain knows that. Even the Pharisees in 33 AD knew that. It's all about doctrine. It always is!

    It used to be common sense and an undisputed point that our beliefs -- the doctrine we hold -- shapes our actions. If we believe, for example, that we are in a deadly pandemic, and that cloth/paper masks are able to filter out viruses, then I'm going to wear a mask everywhere I go, of my own will.

    St. John chapter 18: [19] The high priest therefore asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine.
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