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Author Topic: Contra Cekadam - against Sedevacantism by Fr. Chazal  (Read 10012 times)

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Offline JPaul

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Re: Contra Cekadam - against Sedevacantism by Fr. Chazal
« Reply #120 on: July 20, 2018, 09:16:20 AM »
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  • Got my copy today, and while there are some good parts in this book, I couldn't help but notice this: “The Pope can be deposed legitimately, because, granted that power to depose the pope resides in the council apart from the pope, it must be able to assemble its scattered members, in order to depose him...

    It's a non-dogmatic quote.

    Ironically, the same William of Ockham that Fr. Chazal quotes as being a condemned heretic of a sedevacante type position is condemned for promoting something similar called conciliarism. William of Ockham (d. 1349) wrote some of the earliest docuмents outlining the basic understanding of conciliarism. His goal in these writing was removal of Pope John XXII, who had revoked a decree favoring ideas of the Spiritual Franciscans about Christ and the apostles owning nothing individually or in common. Some of his arguments include that the election by the faithful, or their representatives, confers the position of pope and further limits the papal authority. The universal church is a congregation of the faithful, not the Catholic Church, which was promised to the Apostles by Jesus. While the universal Church cannot fall into heresy, it is known that the Pope has fallen into heresy in the past.[2] Should the pope fall into heresy a council can be convened without his permission to judge him.

    Fr. Chazal tiptoes around this last point stating that the council must be called by the heretical pope but who is to judge him is unknown since to judge requires one to be a superior.

    And that's about where I sensed that that particular section of the book was taking a ridiculous spin. I can't believe he even included this sentence in the book. It should've been edited out to save face...  Great uncertainty remains concerning how and by whom the pope who ought to be deposed will be judged to be deposed, for a judge, as such, is superior to the one who is judged.
    Spin indeed! One will wait a very long time for the accused to call down upon himself, his own destruction. It is laughable, but its an easy out of the dilema.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Contra Cekadam - against Sedevacantism by Fr. Chazal
    « Reply #121 on: July 20, 2018, 09:34:59 AM »
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  • Spin indeed! One will wait a very long time for the accused to call down upon himself, his own destruction. It is laughable, but its an easy out of the dilema.
    CentroAmerica:  Fr. Chazal tiptoes around this last point stating that the council must be called by the heretical pope but who is to judge him is unknown since to judge requires one to be a superior.


    Wait, so Fr Chazal believes that Francis (the heretical pope) has to call the Council that will depose him??   ???

    Edit:  I wanted to switch the order of the two quotes above but can't seem to do it.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Contra Cekadam - against Sedevacantism by Fr. Chazal
    « Reply #122 on: July 20, 2018, 10:06:16 AM »
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  • BTW, William of Ockham is the the source of the Heresy of Nominalism which is the main heresy of our times. Why doesn't someone write a book on that and how it is employed by the conciliar church?

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Contra Cekadam - against Sedevacantism by Fr. Chazal
    « Reply #123 on: July 20, 2018, 11:24:46 AM »
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  • BTW, William of Ockham is the the source of the Heresy of Nominalism which is the main heresy of our times. Why doesn't someone write a book on that and how it is employed by the conciliar church?
    .
    Ed Feser hasn't done exactly that, but most of his work engages the problem of nominalism directly or indirectly, and how it is employed writ large by modern thinkers, whether religious or otherwise.
    .
    Back on brand, if I might ask a question about Fr. Chazal's book, how well does he engage what authors who aren't Fr. Cekada have to say?  SGG/MHT are no more conflatable with "sedevacantism" than the SSPX is conflatable with "sedeplenism."
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Contra Cekadam - against Sedevacantism by Fr. Chazal
    « Reply #124 on: July 20, 2018, 11:55:53 AM »
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  • CentroAmerica:  Fr. Chazal tiptoes around this last point stating that the council must be called by the heretical pope but who is to judge him is unknown since to judge requires one to be a superior.


    Wait, so Fr Chazal believes that Francis (the heretical pope) has to call the Council that will depose him??   ???

    Edit:  I wanted to switch the order of the two quotes above but can't seem to do it.
    Well yeah, he pushes the idea that a Council can depose the pope (though who could judge him is unknown) but since this proposition is condemned as one of the propositions of William of Ockham (who he turns into a sinister forerunner of sedevacantists) the Council must be called by the pope (which was not condemned technically).
    So it’s a really poor spin that does a disservice to the Church. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Contra Cekadam - against Sedevacantism by Fr. Chazal
    « Reply #125 on: July 20, 2018, 12:12:49 PM »
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  • Well yeah, he pushes the idea that a Council can depose the pope (though who could judge him is unknown) but since this proposition is condemned as one of the propositions of William of Ockham (who he turns into a sinister forerunner of sedevacantists) the Council must be called by the pope (which was not condemned technically).
    So it’s a really poor spin that does a disservice to the Church.
    So, a heretic is going to call a Council to depose him as a heretic.  What idiocy.  Now I've heard it all. 
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Contra Cekadam - against Sedevacantism by Fr. Chazal
    « Reply #126 on: July 20, 2018, 12:25:17 PM »
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  • Well yeah, he pushes the idea that a Council can depose the pope (though who could judge him is unknown) but since this proposition is condemned as one of the propositions of William of Ockham (who he turns into a sinister forerunner of sedevacantists) the Council must be called by the pope (which was not condemned technically).
    So it’s a really poor spin that does a disservice to the Church.
    .
    When does the pope who's deposed by a Council stop being pope?  Does Chazal answer that question?
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).