Author Topic: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated (Read 20314 times)

trad123 · « **Reply #30 on:** November 16, 2023, 03:51:59 PM »

Quote from: DecemRationis on November 16, 2023, 03:46:13 PM

There is no "few years" after this, but the next age, eternity.

I meant the few years to be reign of the Antichrist.

Apocalypse 13:5

. . . and power was given to him to do two and forty months

DecemRationis · « **Reply #31 on:** November 16, 2023, 03:54:18 PM »

Quote from: trad123 on November 16, 2023, 03:51:59 PM

I meant the few years to be reign of the Antichrist.

Apocalypse 13:5

. . . and power was given to him to do two and forty months

What do you mean by the "resurrection" of the Church? It sounds like you believe that happens before the Antichrist. Is that the case?

trad123 · « **Reply #32 on:** November 16, 2023, 03:56:04 PM »

Quote from: DecemRationis on November 16, 2023, 03:54:18 PM

What do you mean by the "resurrection" of the Church? It sounds like you believe that happens before the Antichrist. Is that the case?

Yes, precisely.

Marulus Fidelis · « **Reply #33 on:** November 16, 2023, 03:59:34 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on November 16, 2023, 03:15:53 PM

He falsely conflated the defect of intention argument as being of the essence for sedeprivationism. It's not. It's merely one explanation for WHY the V2 papal claimants don't have papal authority. Alternative explanation is simply due to their manifest heresy.

Nope. Sanborn, Dutertre, etc. all oppose ipso facto loss of office, they reject cuм Ex Apostolatus, and are on record stating Paul VI, JP2 and Francis are Catholics.

For proof you can watch the video from MHFM on Sanborn's and Salza's error that a declaration is necessary for someone to be a formal heretic.

Capic · « **Reply #34 on:** November 16, 2023, 04:01:11 PM »

Quote from: Meg on November 16, 2023, 03:11:48 PM

You mention that the Cassiacuм Thesis is a novelty/error, since it says that the internal intention to undermine the Faith, whether manifest or not, will prevent a lawful office holder from acquiring the office that he lawfully holds. Perhaps you can provide a little more context? I'm apt to agree with you, but I would like to have more info.

That's the rational for the Thesis. Des Laurier came up with the novel theory that because authority is intended for the common good, if a person lacks the intention or promoting the common good, he is incapable of possessing authority. But he went even further by claiming that a subjective intention of promoting the common good was not enough. To possess authority, the person must have the objective and subjective intention of promoting the common good, which, in practice, means the person must be infallible and impeccable. And his reasoning would not be limited to spiritual authority, but would necessarily have to extend also to civil authority and to the authority that parents have over their children. Lastly, he also believed that it was up to the subjects to judge whether or not the superior had the requisite intention. If not, they were free to publicly declare that even though a person legally holds office, they lack the intention required to possess the authority of the office they legally hold. And Bishops Sanborn possesses the unique ability to have judged that every single bishop alive today who was appointed to the office by the post-Conciliar "Pope," and who he admits legally holds the office, lacked the intention to promote the common good when he was appointed, and therefore lacks the authority (form) of the office that he legally holds. And bishop Sanborn was able to make that judgment even though he couldn't name 99% of the bishops without looking it up.

As I often tell my friends, the Cassiacuм Thesis sounds plausible until you actually understand it.

Capic · « **Reply #35 on:** November 16, 2023, 04:02:12 PM »

Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on November 16, 2023, 03:59:34 PM

Nope. Sanborn, Dutertre, etc. all oppose ipso facto loss of office, they reject cuм Ex Apostolatus, and are on record stating Paul VI,

Correct.

DecemRationis · « **Reply #36 on:** November 16, 2023, 04:03:00 PM »

Quote from: trad123 on November 16, 2023, 03:56:04 PM

Yes, precisely.

Then I emphatically disagree with you. The resurrection and ascension of the Church occurs after the defeat of the Antichrist. Compare what I quoted - the Antichrist is defeated by Our Lord "with the brightness of his coming," i.e., the Second Coming - with what else happens at the Second Coming:

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1 Thessalonians 4:12-17

12 And we will not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that are asleep, that you be not sorrowful, even as others who have no hope. 13 For if we believe that Jesus died, and rose again; even so them who have slept through Jesus, will God bring with him. 14 For this we say unto you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them who have slept. 15 For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ, shall rise first.

16 Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord. 17 Wherefore, comfort ye one another with these words.

Then occurs both the defeat of Antichrist and the resurrection and ascension of the Church, at the Second Coming of Our Lord.

trad123 · « **Reply #37 on:** November 16, 2023, 04:06:00 PM »

Quote from: DecemRationis on November 16, 2023, 04:03:00 PM

Then I emphatically disagree with you.

Like I said in another thread, the next 20 years will certainly be interesting.

Marulus Fidelis · « **Reply #38 on:** November 16, 2023, 04:09:27 PM »

Quote from: DecemRationis on November 16, 2023, 04:03:00 PM

Then I emphatically disagree with you. The resurrection and ascension of the Church occurs after the defeat of the Antichrist. Compare what I quoted - the Antichrist is defeated by Our Lord "with the brightness of his coming," i.e., the Second Coming - with what else happens at the Second Coming:

Then occurs both the defeat of Antichrist and the resurrection and ascension of the Church, at the Second Coming of Our Lord.

Can you quote any Church Father who doesn't believe the Second Coming will be at the end of time but at the start of a metaphorical or analogical resurrection of the Church?

Capic · « **Reply #39 on:** November 16, 2023, 04:09:57 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on November 16, 2023, 03:15:53 PM

You're "apt to agree" with anything critical of SVism in general, so that's no barometer. He falsely conflated the defect of intention argument as being of the essence for sedeprivationism. It's not. It's merely one explanation for WHY the V2 papal claimants don't have papal authority. Alternative explanation is simply due to their manifest heresy.

You just proved that you don't understand sedeprivationism, yet I believe I have seen posts where you say that is the position that you hold. How can you hold that position when you don't even understand it? But don't feel bad, 99.999999% of sedeprivationists don't understand sedeprivationism.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #40 on:** November 16, 2023, 04:13:41 PM »

Quote

Then quote anyone before Vatican II who taught that the intention to undermine the faith will prevent an officeholder from acquiring the authority of the office that he legally holds.

It's a simple application of principle that the Church is both a human AND a Divine institution. Christ gave St Peter the power to "bind and loose", but there are limits to this (i.e. St Peter did not have the authority to create an 8th sacrament.

Canon Law (and many other papal docuмents) refer to excommunications which happen "immediately" (i.e. spiritually) while also allowing the necessary temporal due process of law (i.e. human aspect). Just like sacraments have matter and form, so the papacy (being part of the sacrament of Holy Orders) has a human and divine office.

Further, when we read the revisions to conclave election laws changed by Pope St Pius X and Pius XII, both refer to spiritual penalties being "paused" until the election is over (i.e. human voting), but then *immediately* such (spiritual) penalties are incurred again. In other words, these popes differentiated between the human aspect of the conclave/papacy and the spiritual aspect/authority.

cuм Ex makes the same distinction, but not as clear because it's so old. Both Popes Pius X and XII knew the imminent dangers/confusion which was coming upon the Church; they acted accordingly and made the proper separation between the human/Divine elements in the papal office. Same as did St Bellarmine and those of his time.

This concept is nothing new; but the application of it to an actual pope (i.e. every V2 pope) is unprecedented. When the shoe fits...

DecemRationis · « **Reply #41 on:** November 16, 2023, 04:18:48 PM »

Quote from: Capic on November 16, 2023, 09:25:51 AM

Decem Rationis, just to clarify, is it your position that the gates of hell have prevailed against the
Church? And are you are quoting the various scripture passages and Cardinal Manning in an attempt to support this position?

Capic,

This will be lengthy. Sorry. It calls for some elaboration.

We know two things about this "prevailing' which have been revealed directly by God in Scripture. We are told:

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Matthew 16:18

18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

We also told (I cited some of these verses above0;

Quote

Apoc. 11:7

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast, that ascendeth out of the abyss, shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Apoc. 13:7

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them. And power was given him over every tribe, and people, and tongue, and nation.

Since God is talking there, we know that both are true, and we know that there is no contradiction between them.Yet there is a surface tension, for sure.

I agree with Cardinal Manning's view:

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[63] In like manner with His Church. Until the hour is come when the barrier shall, by the Divine will, be taken out of the way, no one has power to lay a hand upon it. The gates of hell may war against it; they may strive and wrestle, as they struggle now, with the Vicar of our Lord; but no one has the power to move Him one step, until the hour shall come when the Son of God shall permit, for a time, the powers of evil to prevail. That He will permit it for a time stands in the book of prophecy. When the hindrance is taken away, the man of sin will be revealed; then will come the persecution of three years and a half, short, but terrible, during which the Church of God will return into its state of suffering, as in the beginning; and the imperishable Church of God, by its inextinguishable life derived from the pierced side of Jesus, which for three hundred years lived on through blood, will live on still through the fires of the times of Antichrist.

The "little horn" or Daniel will "prevail, and the saints will be "overcome, and killed" when they "have finished their testimony."

In Matthew, Our Lord tells us:

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Matthew 24:14-15

14 And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come. 15 When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.

The preaching of the Gospel throughout the whole word - i,e, the testimony being finished (Apoc. 11:7) - happens, and then the "abomination of desolation" in the holy place "spoken of by Daniel," who also speaks of the "little horn" and his "prevailing" over the saints, etc.

This all happens, in the words of St. Paul, when the "witholder" is taken out of the way:

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2 Thessalonians 2:6-8

6 And now you know what withholdeth, that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth; and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, him,

Cardinal Manning reads the "witholder" as the Holy Ghost working through the pope and "Christendom," i.e the Church. It is taken out of the way temporarily, and the powers of evil "prevail" for a time.

But the "Church" nonetheless lives on, and survives.

Now we have a heretic/apostate sitting in the chair of Peter, and a moral unanimity of bishops in union with him in heresy/apostasy. I believe this is the time prophesied. The Gospel has been spread over the earth; the "testimony" is finished in the governing hierarchy, the hierarchy with power and jurisdiction.

Now, Conti says:

Quote

If that happened (i.e., what I just described above,in the first sentence in the prior paragraph, and which we all here pretty much agree on), the Church would lose Her apostolic character, which is not possible, and would lose Her indefectibility, as the visible Head of the Church, Vicar of Christ, and foundational Rock of the Church would have gone astray along with the body of successors to the other Apostles. God does not permit the gates of Hell to prevail over the Church in this or any other way.

Well, it happened. Conti is wrong, and thus his idea of "indefectibility" is patently false, as history has proved and is still proving - it will likely get much, much worse before the end.

You can say he's wrong because the pope is not the pope, the bishops are not the bishops, but to me, that's just absurd, and avoids the demonstrable facts. It is also saying "no" to God in my view, because it denies what God had worked in His Providence, a refusal to accept His working and will, in order to justify what some men, like Conti, have asserted about the "Church."

To hold onto Conti's notion, in light of what God has willed and determined in His wisdom and judgment, is misguided, wrong, and results in a contradiction, either with objective reality, the facts, or in theory itself, because, as I have argued in several threads here, the "Conti theory" of indefectibilty requires a hierarchy possessing not only truth in its preaching but also the power to rule and govern the members of Christ's Church. The necessity of power to rule and govern is generally ignored in discussions here. Why? Because it exposes the falsity of the "Conti theory," which is basically the theory of the theologians pre-Vatican II. The Sedes and most of the R & R adhere to this theory of indefectibility, which simply doesn't work, and which the Crisis has demonstrated to be false.

If you want to read a serious discussion about this, you can in this thread:

https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/

DR

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #42 on:** November 16, 2023, 04:19:24 PM »

Quote

What do you mean by the "resurrection" of the Church? It sounds like you believe that happens before the Antichrist. Is that the case?

It's both, actually. The transition from the 5th age (heresy/communism) to the 6th (Age of Our Lady), is similar (a precursor) to the transition from the 7th (antichrist persecution) to the end of the world (Age of Christ the King).

Our times, which are part of the "end times" are a prefigurement of the ACTUAL end time (i.e. antichrist). Both periods have a falling away (i.e. V2 vs antichrist religion), both periods will have a persecution, and both will have a resurrection of the Church and peace.

Marulus Fidelis · « **Reply #43 on:** November 16, 2023, 04:20:37 PM »

Quote from: Capic on November 16, 2023, 04:09:57 PM

You just proved that you don't understand sedeprivationism, yet I believe I have seen posts where you say that is the position that you hold. How can you hold that position when you don't even understand it? But don't feel bad, 99.999999% of sedeprivationists don't understand sedeprivationism.

That's why they're constantly "Explaining the Thesis™"

In typical smug Most Highly Trained seminary fashion they spend more time explaining sophisticated distinctions most can barely keep track of to run-of-the-mill laity than actually evangelizing.

Thank God MHFM has lots of material for everyone from atheists to eastern schismatics, Sanborn's clowns only spend time playing inside baseball and addressing other traditionalists.

DecemRationis · « **Reply #44 on:** November 16, 2023, 04:20:59 PM »

Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on November 16, 2023, 04:09:27 PM

Can you quote any Church Father who doesn't believe the Second Coming will be at the end of time but at the start of a metaphorical or analogical resurrection of the Church?

What????

I don't believe the resurrection of the Church will be "metaphorical or analogical." Read 1 Thessalonians 4:12-17. That's literally what I believe.

PS - that happens at the end of time.

Author Topic: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated (Read 20314 times)

trad123

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