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Author Topic: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated  (Read 20305 times)

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Offline Capic

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Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2023, 09:25:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on November 16, 2023, 08:21:33 AM
    I made no mention of UPA. Concentrate, and stop responding to straw men standing in your mind.

    What I did mention, rather quote, was Scripture, and Cardinal Manning, speaking with the Spirit of Truth, and in perfect unison with the Word.

    Decem Rationis, just to clarify, is it your position that the gates of hell have prevailed against the Church?  And are you are quoting the various scripture passages and Cardinal Manning in an attempt to support this position?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #16 on: November 16, 2023, 10:30:07 AM »
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    • Quote
    So the twisting and writhing into theses (Cassiascuм) and otherwise in attempts to untangle, trying to fit the square peg in the round whole of that.
    The Cassiascuм thesis is not a twisting of anything.  It's not deceitful, nor theologically manipulative, even if it's incomplete or unsatisfactory in all areas of explanation.


    DR, you seem to imply that our times are "the end".  They are not.  When the present Church sails through the last gasps of this 5th Age of spiritual chaos, She will find land, stability and peace in Our Lady's 6th Age, the period of peace, rejuvenation and rebirth.  Then the oft-prophecized resurrection of the Church will occur, with the great Council that will settle all wrongs, explain all errors, and condemn all heresies of the last 500 years.  Then will the Church define the parameters of the Magisterium, the limits of papal infalibility, and everything that we now see as contradiction and scandal in new-rome will be explained in a doctrinal way, wherein we will see God's wisdom and glorious protection of His Divine Bride, and the papacy too.

    12 We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then I shall know even as I am known. (1 Corinthians)
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    Offline Capic

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #17 on: November 16, 2023, 10:43:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on November 16, 2023, 10:30:07 AM
    The Cassiascuм thesis is not a twisting of anything.  It's not deceitful, nor theologically manipulative, even if it's incomplete or unsatisfactory in all areas of explanation.

    The problem with the Cassiacuм Thesis is it is based on an error, namely, that an internal intention to undermine the faith (whether manifest or not) will prevent a lawful office holder from acquiring the authority of the office that he lawfully holds. That is a complete novelty, and as the Fathers are want to say, novelty is always the sure sign of heresy.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #18 on: November 16, 2023, 03:01:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Capic on November 16, 2023, 10:43:30 AM
    The problem with the Cassiacuм Thesis is it is based on an error, namely, that an internal intention to undermine the faith (whether manifest or not) will prevent a lawful office holder from acquiring the authority of the office that he lawfully holds. That is a complete novelty, and as the Fathers are want to say, novelty is always the sure sign of heresy.

    No it's not.  You (and the individual who up-thumbed this post) are completely ignorant about the Thesis and yet bloviate and pontificate nonsensically about it as if you were some authority.  Bishop Guerard was arguably the greatest pre-Vatican II theologian who probably forgot more theology in one hour than you or I will ever know, but you sit here in your armchair dismissing it with a wave of your hand.

    Defect of Intention is simply one explanation for WHY the pre-V2 popes do not formally possess office, and it's been advanced mostly by the Italian priests and Bishop Sanborn, for various reasons I'll not go in here.  Other explanations include simply their manifest heresy.  Both are tangential to the core of the Thesis, which is that one could lose authority (the formal office) while still retaining the legal office (the material office).  That is no "novelty", but we see it even in the teaching of Pope St. Celestine early on when he declared that Nestorius had lost his authority from the moment he began to preach his heresy (i.e. his pertinacious heresy became manifest) even before he was formally / legally removed from office, nearly 3 years later.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #19 on: November 16, 2023, 03:11:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Capic on November 16, 2023, 10:43:30 AM
    The problem with the Cassiacuм Thesis is it is based on an error, namely, that an internal intention to undermine the faith (whether manifest or not) will prevent a lawful office holder from acquiring the authority of the office that he lawfully holds. That is a complete novelty, and as the Fathers are want to say, novelty is always the sure sign of heresy.

    You mention that the Cassiacuм Thesis is a novelty/error, since it says that the internal intention to undermine the Faith, whether manifest or not, will prevent a lawful office holder from acquiring the office that he lawfully holds. Perhaps you can provide a little more context? I'm apt to agree with you, but I would like to have more info. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #20 on: November 16, 2023, 03:15:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on November 16, 2023, 03:11:48 PM
    You mention that the Cassiacuм Thesis is a novelty/error, since it says that the internal intention to undermine the Faith, whether manifest or not, will prevent a lawful office holder from acquiring the office that he lawfully holds. Perhaps you can provide a little more context? I'm apt to agree with you, but I would like to have more info.

    You're "apt to agree" with anything critical of SVism in general, so that's no barometer.  He falsely conflated the defect of intention argument as being of the essence for sedeprivationism.  It's not.  It's merely one explanation for WHY the V2 papal claimants don't have papal authority.  Alternative explanation is simply due to their manifest heresy.
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #21 on: November 16, 2023, 03:16:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on November 16, 2023, 07:22:04 AM
    Manning, Archbishop Henry. The Present Crisis of the Holy See . Desert Will Flower iPress. Kindle Edition.


    What's the commentary from that on Matthew 16:18 ?


    18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #22 on: November 16, 2023, 03:25:58 PM »
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    • Nevermind.

    Here it is.



    The Present Crisis of the Holy See  

    Henry Edward Manning

    Pages 67 - 68


    https://archive.org/details/ThePresentCrisisOfTheHolySee/page/n83/mode/2up



    Quote
    We have already seen reason to believe that as our Divine Lord delivered Himself into the hands of sinners when His time was come, and no man could lay hand upon Him, until of His own free will He delivered Himself over to their power, so in like manner it shall be with that Church of which He said, " Upon this rock will I build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” As the wicked did not prevail against Him even when they bound Him with cords, dragged Him to the judgment, blindfolded His eyes, mocked Him as a false King, smote Him on the head as a false Prophet, led Him away, crucified Him, and in the mastery of their power seemed to have absolute dominion over Him, so that He lay ground down and almost annihilated under their feet; and as, at that very time when He was dead and buried out of their sight, He was conqueror over all, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven, and was crowned, glorified, and invested with His royalty, and reigns supreme, King of kings and Lord of lords,—even so shall it be with His Church : though for a time persecuted, and, to the eyes of man, overthrown and trampled on, dethroned, despoiled, mocked, and crushed, yet in that high time of triumph the gates of hell shall not prevail. There is in store for the Church of God a resurrection and an ascension, a royalty and a dominion, a recompense of glory for all it has endured. Like Jesus, it needs must suffer on the way to its crown; yet crowned it shall be with Him eternally.

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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #23 on: November 16, 2023, 03:27:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 16, 2023, 03:15:53 PM
    You're "apt to agree" with anything critical of SVism in general, so that's no barometer.  He falsely conflated the defect of intention argument as being of the essence for sedeprivationism.  It's not.  It's merely one explanation for WHY the V2 papal claimants don't have papal authority.  Alternative explanation is simply due to their manifest heresy.

    Is Coptic the first person on this forum to bring up this issue? I would just like to see his perspective on it, since he's new here. We are all allowed an opinion on the subject, aren't we?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #24 on: November 16, 2023, 03:35:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on November 16, 2023, 03:27:03 PM
    Is Coptic the first person on this forum to bring up this issue? I would just like to see his perspective on it, since he's new here. We are all allowed an opinion on the subject, aren't we?

    Yes, he's the first one to conflate the vitium consensus with sedeprivationism (The Thesis), probably because +Vigano used the argument and then +Sanborn chimed in that it was very similar to his position (and to that of some of the Italians).  But it's more of a peripheral explanation for why Bergoglio et al. didn't have papal authority; another explanation is simply manifest heresy.

    I agree with sedeprivationism in principle, but I don't believe this is the explanation.  I believe that the root cause goes back to the illegitimate election of Roncalli, since I believe Siri was the legitimate Pope from 1958 - 1989 (when he died).  So this is yet a different explanation for the crisis that's completely separate from sedeprivationism.  I don't believe these guys even had material possession of the office.  So, in a sense, sedeprivationism is moot for me, but I agree with it in principle.
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #25 on: November 16, 2023, 03:37:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: trad123 on November 16, 2023, 03:25:58 PM
    even so shall it be with His Church : though for a time persecuted, and, to the eyes of man, overthrown and trampled on, dethroned, despoiled, mocked, and crushed, yet in that high time of triumph the gates of hell shall not prevail. There is in store for the Church of God a resurrection and an ascension, a royalty and a dominion, a recompense of glory for all it has endured. Like Jesus, it needs must suffer on the way to its crown; yet crowned it shall be with Him eternally.


    DecemRationis, it certainly sounds like the resurrection which the Church shall undergo shall be the Sixth Age of the Church.

    The Fifth Age is coming to an end, the Sixth Age will began for a time, and then the Antichrist shall appear marking the Seventh Age, and then the ascension of the Church shall shortly follow that, after a few years.

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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #26 on: November 16, 2023, 03:38:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: trad123 on November 16, 2023, 03:25:58 PM
    Nevermind.

    Here it is.



    The Present Crisis of the Holy See 

    Henry Edward Manning

    Pages 67 - 68


    https://archive.org/details/ThePresentCrisisOfTheHolySee/page/n83/mode/2up

    Agree with all of that, especially:

    Quote
    even so shall it be with His Church : though for a time persecuted, and, to the eyes of man, overthrown and trampled on, dethroned, despoiled, mocked, and crushed, yet in that high time of triumph the gates of hell shall not prevail. There is in store for the Church of God a resurrection and an ascension, a royalty and a dominion, a recompense of glory for all it has endured. Like Jesus, it needs must suffer on the way to its crown; yet crowned it shall be with Him eternally.

    You do know what the "high time of triumph" and the "resurrection and ascension" is referring to, right?

    You did read my quote of the Cardinal, where he says the "powers of evil" temporarily "prevail" for a time? I hope you do not think the Cardinal contradicts himself. I don't think he does.

    With the Cardinal, I know who ultimately wins or "prevails" permanently in this war, and where the victory lies and reaches its fulfillment. 



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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #27 on: November 16, 2023, 03:41:29 PM »
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    • All I know is that Our Lady of Fatima promised a period of peace, and it is very likely that this period will be the Sixth Age of the Church.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #28 on: November 16, 2023, 03:46:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: trad123 on November 16, 2023, 03:37:08 PM

    DecemRationis, it certainly sounds like the resurrection which the Church shall undergo shall be the Sixth Age of the Church.

    The Fifth Age is coming to an end, the Sixth Age will began for a time, and then the Antichrist shall appear marking the Seventh Age, and then the ascension of the Church shall shortly follow that, after a few years.

    This is what I know, for certain, because it is written down and revealed by God, and no one who is Christ's denies its inerrancy and authority: I know how the Antichrist is defeated -


    Quote
    2 Thessalonians 2:8

    8 And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth; and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, him,

    There is no "few years" after this, but the next age, eternity. 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Capic

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #29 on: November 16, 2023, 03:47:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 16, 2023, 03:01:55 PM
    No it's not. 

    Then quote anyone before Vatican II who taught that the intention to undermine the faith will prevent an officeholder from acquiring the authority of the office that he legally holds. Bishops Sanborn hasn't been able to locate anyone who taught it and, needless to say, neither could Gerard des Laurier, but if you know of someone who taught it, provide the quote.  If not, then please admit that the foundation of the Thesis is a novelty. 
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