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Author Topic: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated  (Read 19492 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
« on: November 15, 2023, 03:51:48 PM »
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  • Archbishop Vigano versus Bishop Schneider on the validity of Pope Francis
    Posted on 4 October 2023 by Ron Conte

    This article is on the doctrine of the universal peaceful acceptance of a Pope.

    Archbishop Carlo M. Vigano has published a speech that he had intended to give at the Catholic Identity Conference in Pittsburgh on October 1st, 2023. But his speech and appearance were “deleted”, he explains, from the program. So here is his publication of the speech, which he calls Vitium Consensus, meaning Vice of Consensus. In the speech, he argues against the position of Bishop Athanasius Schneider on the universal peaceful acceptance of a Pope as a clear sign that the Pope is valid. So Vigano is referring to this particular type of “consensus” as if it were corrupt.


    Quote
    Bishop Athanasius Schneider: “There is no authority to declare or consider an elected and generally accepted Pope as an invalid Pope. The constant practice of the Church makes it evident that even in the case of an invalid election this invalid election will be de facto healed through the general acceptance of the new elected by the overwhelming majority of the cardinals and bishops.” [Schnieder’s Article | My Commentary]

    The usual doctrine of the universal peaceful acceptance of the Pope (UPA) is based on the Church as a whole — Bishops, other clergy, religious, laity — accepting a Pope as the true successor of Peter. However, I agree with Bishop Schneider that the acceptance of a Pope by the body of Bishops is sufficient to prove that the Roman Pontiff is valid. The reason I would give is that the Church is always necessarily apostolic and indefectible. So it is not possible for the body of Bishops, successors to the Apostles, to go astray following a false or invalid or heretical successor of Peter (or claimed successor of Peter). If that happened, the Church would lose Her apostolic character, which is not possible, and would lose Her indefectibility, as the visible Head of the Church, Vicar of Christ, and foundational Rock of the Church would have gone astray along with the body of successors to the other Apostles. God does not permit the gates of Hell to prevail over the Church in this or any other way.

    The usual version of the UPA of the Pope relies on the body of the faithful, including the clergy, as a witness to the validity of a Roman Pontiff. This is also true, since the indefectibility of the Church prevents the body of the faithful, even if that body were considered apart from the Bishops, from going astray. For the Church can never be the Shepherds without a flock, nor a flock without the Shepherds. And so neither the body of Bishops, nor the body of the faithful can ever go astray by following a false, invalid, or heretical Pope.


    Cardinal Billot’s teaching on this subject is often cited, as follows:


    Quote
    Cardinal Billot: “Finally, whatever you still think about the possibility or impossibility of the aforementioned hypothesis [of a Pope falling into heresy], at least one point must be considered absolutely incontrovertible and placed firmly above any doubt whatever: the adhesion of the universal Church will be always, in itself, an infallible sign of the legitimacy of a determined Pontiff, and therefore also of the existence of all the conditions required for legitimacy itself. It is not necessary to look far for the proof of this, but we find it immediately in the promise and the infallible providence of Christ: ‘The gates of hell shall not prevail against it,’ and ‘Behold I shall be with you all days.’ For the adhesion of the Church to a false Pontiff would be the same as its adhesion to a false rule of faith, seeing that the Pope is the living rule of faith which the Church must follow and which in fact she always follows. As will become even more clear by what we shall say later, God can permit that at times a vacancy in the Apostolic See be prolonged for a long time. He can also permit that doubt arise about the legitimacy of this or that election. He cannot however permit that the whole Church accept as Pontiff him who is not so truly and legitimately.

    “Therefore, from the moment in which the Pope is accepted by the Church and united to her as the head to the body, it is no longer permitted to raise doubts about a possible vice of election or a possible lack of any condition whatsoever necessary for legitimacy. For the aforementioned adhesion of the Church heals in the root all fault in the election and proves infallibly the existence of all the required conditions.” [Source of this quote: an article by Robert Siscoe here]

    Notice that the acceptance of the Church (or of the body of Bishops) “heals in the root” any problems with the papal election. This circuмvents and invalidates any arguments or claims about the papal election. No one can undermine the authority of any true Pope by telling stories and making accusations about a conclave, which is relatively easy for dishonest schismatics to do. It is a dogmatic fact that Pope Francis is the Roman Pontiff, and true successor of Peter, because he has been accepted by the body of Bishops and by the body of all the faithful.

    This doctrine of UPA does not require the adherence of every Bishop, since of the 12 Apostles, one named Judas betrayed Christ. It is the body of Bishops which demonstrates that a Pope is valid by their obedience to the Pope, by their acceptance of his decisions on doctrine and discipline, and by their cooperation with him as both a fellow Bishop AND the head of the Bishops and head of the Church. Similarly, the doctrine does not require the adherence of every member of the faithful. It is the body of the faithful who show the validity of a Pope as successor of Peter, by accepting that he is the true Pope. For the Church cannot lose Her indefectibility, nor her characteristics as one, holy, catholic and apostolic. The unity of the Bishops as a body, and the faithful as a body, is therefore guaranteed by the grace of God, in the work of the Holy Spirit (who is the soul of the Church).


    Archbishop Vigano rejects this doctrine of universal peaceful acceptance, regardless of whether it is based on the body of the Bishops or the body of the faithful.


    Quote
    Vigano: “In 1378, after the election of Pope Urban VI, the majority of Cardinals, Prelates and the people recognized Clement VII as pope, even though he was in reality an antipope. Thirteen out of sixteen cardinals questioned the validity of the election of Pope Urban due to the threat of violence from the Roman people against the Sacred College, and even Urban’s few supporters immediately retracted their election, summoning a new Conclave at Fondi which elected the antipope Clement VII. Even Saint Vincent Ferrer was convinced that Clement was the real pope, while Saint Catherine of Siena sided with Urban. If universal consensus were an indefectibly valid argument for a pope’s legitimacy, Clement would have had the right to be considered the true pope, rather than Urban. Antipope Clement was defeated by Urban VI’s army in the battle of Marino in 1379 and transferred his See to Avignon, leading to the Western Schism, which lasted thirty-nine years. Thus we see that the universal acceptance argument does not withstand the test of history.”

    History is subject to distortions and misinterpretations. So the test of a doctrine is not historical, but doctrinal. The doctrine is well-attested in Church sources. See this useful list of sources and quotes compiled by Robert Siscoe: Peaceful and Universal Acceptance Quotes (from the 15th to 21st Century).

    In addition, the doctrine of UPA is based on the dogma of the indefectibility of the Church, the dogma of the essential characters of the Church as one, holy, catholic (universal), and apostolic, and the dogma of the papal charism of truth and never-failing faith. If the body of Bishops, or the body of the faithful (considered with or even without the Bishops) were to go astray following a false, invalid, or heretical Pope, then the above dogmas would be false, which cannot be. A pope is certainly valid and the true successor of Peter, if he is accepted by the body of Bishops and the body of the faithful. If the historical conditions and the length of time that has passed since that time make it difficult to ascertain both, then either one is sufficient proof, being based on dogmatic teachings. If the historical conditions or the time that has passed make it difficult for us today to determine the acceptance of the body of Bishops or the body of the faithful, this does not invalidate a past Pope, and certainly not in the case of a Pope clearly ruled to be a valid Pope by the Church in subsequent years.


    Vigano distorts history by claiming the following: “In 1378, after the election of Pope Urban VI, the majority of Cardinals, Prelates and the people recognized Clement VII as pope, even though he was in reality an antipope.” Note that the number of Cardinals is not relevant. Most or all Cardinals will also be Bishops, so Bishop Athanasius Schneider says “cardinals and bishops”. But the doctrinal basis is that the Bishops are the successors of the Apostles. (A priest who becomes Cardinal, e.g. Cardinal Dulles, is not a successor of the Apostles.) So a majority of Cardinals is not relevant. I should also point out that, historically, Popes were usually elected by a conclave of Cardinals, so the fact that a majority accepts the Pope that a majority voted for is not a proof. Vigano says “Prelates”, instead of Bishops, and this is also irrelevant. The body of Bishops, led by the Pope, is the Apostolic College, which is indefectible.


    In addition, antipope Clement VII appointed 19 Cardinals in order to give himself the majority of the Cardinals that Vigano cites. But Cardinals created by an antipope are not valid. It is absurd to use the number of Cardinals created by an antipope in any argument concerning papal validity. An antipope could hypothetically appoint 100 Cardinals, and it would prove nothing (except the invalidity of those Cardinals).


    Then it is simply historically false to claim that most of the people (the faithful) accepted Pope (antipope) Clement VII. Everyone knew that Pope Urban VI was still in office, and the faithful know not to accept a new Pope, while the prior Pope is still in office (not having resigned or died). In fact, Urban ruled from Rome, and the people know that the Pope is the Bishop of Rome. It is true that Popes can rule from other places, as has happened from time to time. But the current Pope ruling from Rome makes it clear to the faithful not to accept a new claimed-pope elected by a subset of the Cardinals, not a full conclave. Clement VII has some support politically, as the Popes of those days were involved in politics and even warfare. But political support does not grant UPA.


    It does not matter whether Pope Urban VI was popular or not. What matters is that he was accepted by the body of Bishops and the body of the faithful. For he was the Bishop of Rome, and reigned prior to Clement. Then the antipope Clement had so little support, that he was force to flee from city to city to city. Here is what Wikipedia says about antipope Clement VII, and it clearly shows the historical fact that Clement was not accepted by the body of the faithful:


    Quote
    Robert [Clement VII] was elected pope at Fondi on 20 September 1378 by the cardinals who opposed the return of the Papacy from Avignon to Rome, and the election of Pope Urban VI in the latter town.[9] He chose the regnal name of Clement VII, and became the first of the line of ‘popes’ (now counted as antipopes) of the so-called Western Schism, the second of the two periods referred to as the Great Schism, which lasted until 1417.[10] Following a victory at Marino by Urban VI’s troops,[11] Clement, feeling vulnerable, fled Anagni to Sperlonga, then Gaeta, finally landing at Naples.[12] Received with great respect by Queen Joanna I of Naples, Clement found himself assailed by the local populace which chanted, “Viva Papa Urbano” and “Muoia l’Anticristo”.[12][13] He deemed Naples unsafe and fled by ship to Avignon, France, being greeted by five cardinals.[12]

    The people shouted at antipope Clement VII, “Long live Pope Urban” and “Death to the Antichrist”. Clement was force to flee from Anagni to Sperlonga to Gaeta to Naples to Avignon. And in the latter city, he had the support of 5 Cardinals only. Pope Saint John Paul II traveled the world for many years, and was greeted by literally millions of the faithful. Pope Francis also travels widely and is accepted by the Catholic faithful everywhere he goes.

    If, as a counter-factual hypothetical, Pope Benedict XVI did not resign, and some schismatic Cardinal elected Francis, then he would be an antipope. But in fact Benedict not only resigned, and called for a papal conclave, but Benedict also accepted Pope Francis as the true Pope for many year, even up to Benedict’s death. Note that Benedict wrote an encyclical, which was completed by Pope Francis and published by Pope Francis under his authority as Pope. So his cooperation is yet another clear indication that Pope Benedict XVI validly resigned and did accept Pope Francis as his true successor.


    Vigano claims that “Urban’s few supporters immediately retracted their election, summoning a new Conclave at Fondi.” False. The Cardinals who broke away from the current Pope, Urban VI, and the rest of the Cardinals and Bishops, were those that disliked the return of the papacy to Rome. Urban did not have “few supporters”, as shown by the fact that Clement VII was created by the people with cries of “Long live Pope Urban” and “Death to the Antichrist”. Vigano claims: “If universal consensus were an indefectibly valid argument for a pope’s legitimacy, Clement would have had the right to be considered the true pope, rather than Urban.” False. The rejection of Clement by the Bishops of Italy and many other nations, by the other Cardinals, and by the people, who went so far as to call him the Antichrist, shows that Clement did not have UPA, while Pope Urban did.
    In any case, if an historical situation does not, from out point of view centuries later, clearly show UPA, that may be due to the passing of time and the lack of docuмentation about that acceptance in the dioceses and parishes of the world. We need not prove UPA for each past Pope. Rather, it is a way for us to recognize, as a dogmatic fact, the validity of Roman Pontiffs and also Ecuмenical Councils.


    Archbishop Vigano rejects the Second Vatican Council, calling it “the conciliar cancer”. But all the dioceses of the world have accepted Vatican II and have put its decision on doctrine and discipline in to practice. The Bishops of the world have continuously taught the doctrines of Vatican II, and its decisions on discipline have been put into practice. Every Pope since Vatican II has accepted the Council and taught from it, and the faithful throughout the world, as a body, have accepted Vatican I and Vatican II as valid Councils. The rejection of Vatican II (and even Vatican I) by some persons today, does not contradict the UPA, as there are always some in the Church whose faith is so weak that they will walk away from the Lord Jesus and His Church, when the Church does not teach what they would like.


    Since Archbishop Vigano rejects the validity of Pope Francis as well as the validity of the Second Vatican Council, Vigano is a schismatic who is automatically excommunicated. As Pope Leo XII taught in Satis Cognitum:


    Quote
    Pope Leo XII: “15. From this it must be clearly understood that Bishops are deprived of the right and power of ruling, if they deliberately secede from Peter and his successors; because, by this secession, they are separated from the foundation on which the whole edifice must rest. They are therefore outside the edifice itself; and for this very reason they are separated from the fold, whose leader is the Chief Pastor; they are exiled from the Kingdom, the keys of which were given by Christ to Peter alone.” [Satis Cognitum]


    Ronald L Conte Jr


    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #1 on: November 15, 2023, 03:53:23 PM »
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  • "Since Archbishop Vigano rejects the validity of Pope Francis as well as the validity of the Second Vatican Council, Vigano is a schismatic who is automatically excommunicated. As Pope Leo XII taught in Satis Cognitum:

    Quote
    Pope Leo XII: “15. From this it must be clearly understood that Bishops are deprived of the right and power of ruling, if they deliberately secede from Peter and his successors; because, by this secession, they are separated from the foundation on which the whole edifice must rest. They are therefore outside the edifice itself; and for this very reason they are separated from the fold, whose leader is the Chief Pastor; they are exiled from the Kingdom, the keys of which were given by Christ to Peter alone.” [Satis Cognitum]

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #2 on: November 15, 2023, 03:56:02 PM »
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  • Conte?  :laugh1:

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #3 on: November 15, 2023, 03:58:09 PM »
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  • Conte?  :laugh1:

    And Siscoe/Salza are strangely quiet.


    :popcorn:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #4 on: November 15, 2023, 04:03:58 PM »
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  • And Siscoe/Salza are strangely quiet.


    :popcorn:

    Yeah, I've been waiting.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #5 on: November 15, 2023, 04:05:18 PM »
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  • But Conte does make one decent point, that I've brought up before.  Universal Peaceful Acceptance has to do with whether the Church can accept a false rule of faith.  That is the core principle.  But all of the world's Bishops (apart from a few handful) have accepted Vatican II and the NOM, and therefore V2 and the NOM should in theory fall under the same principle.

    Regardless of how this might affect pre-Bergoglian V2 popes, I hardly think that Jorge enjoys Universal Peaceful Acceptance as a rule of faith.  Anyone who still has even a little bit of their sensus Catholicus left is questioning Jorge.  We have conservative Novus Ordites wondering whether Jorge is the pope.  Does that sound like Universal PEACEFUL Acceptance to you?  It certainly doesn't to me.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #6 on: November 15, 2023, 08:50:19 PM »
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  • We have conservative Novus Ordites wondering whether Jorge is the pope.  Does that sound like Universal PEACEFUL Acceptance to you?  It certainly doesn't to me.
    They weren't questioning this at the time of the election though. That relates more to the question of whether or not he could have fallen from office on account of heresy.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #7 on: November 16, 2023, 02:42:59 AM »
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  • They weren't questioning this at the time of the election though. That relates more to the question of whether or not he could have fallen from office on account of heresy.
    What's the time limit for UPA? Thirty seconds after the election to voice your concern? A day? A week? A year? 13?


    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #8 on: November 16, 2023, 03:20:00 AM »
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  • I admit I questioned this papacy the moment I heard the name.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #9 on: November 16, 2023, 03:31:16 AM »
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  • What's the time limit for UPA? Thirty seconds after the election to voice your concern? A day? A week? A year? 13?
    Billot as quoted above:

    “Therefore, from the moment in which the Pope is accepted by the Church and united to her as the head to the body, it is no longer permitted to raise doubts about a possible vice of election or a possible lack of any condition whatsoever necessary for legitimacy. For the aforementioned adhesion of the Church heals in the root all fault in the election and proves infallibly the existence of all the required conditions.”

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #10 on: November 16, 2023, 06:57:04 AM »
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  • Quote
    "However, I agree with Bishop Schneider that the acceptance of a Pope by the body of Bishops is sufficient to prove that the Roman Pontiff is valid. The reason I would give is that the Church is always necessarily apostolic and indefectible. So it is not possible for the body of Bishops, successors to the Apostles, to go astray following a false or invalid or heretical successor of Peter (or claimed successor of Peter). If that happened, the Church would lose Her apostolic character, which is not possible, and would lose Her indefectibility, as the visible Head of the Church, Vicar of Christ, and foundational Rock of the Church would have gone astray along with the body of successors to the other Apostles. God does not permit the gates of Hell to prevail over the Church in this or any other way."

    There it is, right there: the stranglehold, the Great Conundrum - the "indefectibility" of the Church, by which Conte and his ilk in the hierarchy (not only present, but past as well) mean, "ourselves, i.e., the moral majority (overwhelming consensus equaling unanimity) of the bishops in union with the current pontiff." So the twisting and writhing into theses (Cassiascuм) and otherwise in attempts to untangle, trying to fit the square peg in the round whole of that.

    And on and on it goes . .
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #11 on: November 16, 2023, 07:22:04 AM »
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  • Quote
    If that happened, the Church would lose Her apostolic character, which is not possible, and would lose Her indefectibility, as the visible Head of the Church, Vicar of Christ, and foundational Rock of the Church would have gone astray along with the body of successors to the other Apostles. God does not permit the gates of Hell to prevail over the Church in this or any other way.

    The testimony of Scripture:


    Quote
    Daniel 7:21

    21 I beheld, and lo, that horn made war against the saints, and prevailed over them,

    Daniel 8:10-12

    9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn: and it became great against the south, and against the east, and against the strength.  10 And it was magnified even unto the strength of heaven: and it threw down of the strength, and of the stars, and trod upon them.  11 And it was magnified even to the prince of the strength: and it took away from him the continual sacrifice, and cast down the place of his sanctuary.  12 And strength was given him against the continual sacrifice, because of sins: and truth shall be cast down on the ground, and he shall do and shall prosper . . .  24 And his power shall be strengthened, but not by his own force: and he shall lay all things waste, and shall prosper, and do more than can be believed. And he shall destroy the mighty, and the people of the saints,

    Apoc. 11:7

    7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast, that ascendeth out of the abyss, shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

    Apoc. 13:7

    7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them. And power was given him over every tribe, and people, and tongue, and nation.


    Cardinal Manning:


    Quote
    No man could break through that circle of omnipotence until the hour came, when by His own will He opened the way for the powers of evil. For this reason He said in the garden, “This is your hour, and the power of darkness.” [60] For this reason, before He gave Himself into the hands of sinners, He exerted once more the majesty of His power, and when they came to take Him, He rose and said, “I am He,” [61] and “they went backward, and fell to the ground.” Having vindicated His divine majesty, He delivered Himself into the hands of sinners. So too, He said, when He stood before Pilate, “Thou shouldst not have any power against Me, unless it were given thee from above.” [62] It was the will of God; it was the concession of the Father that Pilate had power over His incarnate Son. Again, He said, “Thinkest thou that I cannot ask My Father, and He will give Me presently more than twelve legions of angels? how then shall the Scripture be fulfilled?” [63] In like manner with His Church. Until the hour is come when the barrier shall, by the Divine will, be taken out of the way, no one has power to lay a hand upon it. The gates of hell may war against it; they may strive and wrestle, as they struggle now, with the Vicar of our Lord; but no one has the power to move Him one step, until the hour shall come when the Son of God shall permit, for a time, the powers of evil to prevail. That He will permit it for a time stands in the book of prophecy. When the hindrance is taken away, the man of sin will be revealed; then will come the persecution of three years and a half, short, but terrible, during which the Church of God will return into its state of suffering, as in the beginning; and the imperishable Church of God, by its inextinguishable life derived from the pierced side of Jesus, which for three hundred years lived on through blood, will live on still through the fires of the times of Antichrist.



    Manning, Archbishop Henry. The Present Crisis of the Holy See . Desert Will Flower iPress. Kindle Edition.










    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #12 on: November 16, 2023, 07:58:51 AM »
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  • For the Trads who mindlessly parrot back UPA, the same principle behind UPA applies also to Vatican II and the NOM.  Entire "Church" also accepts V2 and the NOM, so the entire Church can't be wrong.  UPA, as admitted by Billot, is rooted in the fact that the entire Church cannot accept a false rule of faith.  If you're a Trad who uses UPA to claim that Jorge is the pope, then you're a schismatic for rejecting V2 and the NOM.

    UPA as proof of legitimate election is debunked by three different historical incidents where a living pope who had been taken into exile was replaced by another one while he was still alive and in one case openly protesting his replacement, and who was nevertheless "universally accepted".

    UPA as proof of legitimate election is also debunked implicitly by Paul IV in cuм ex Apostolatus, where he holds that (per his decree) a heretic Pope would not be legitimate even if he were accepted and given obedience by all.  While cuм ex is not doctrinal per se, the principle is implicit in that UPA would render it moot.

    We hare our resident Old Catholics, such as DR, trying to use UPA to justify their heretical rejection of the Church's indefectibility.

    Either V2 and the NOM represent a corruption of the Church or they do not.  If they do, they could not have come from legitimate papal authority.  If they don't, you'd better get your arses back into communion with and submission to Jorge or you're going to lose your souls.

    You can argue until you're blue in the face about the "5 Opinions", but this simple fact stands.  Some of you have become thinly-veiled Old Catholics in your belief system and need to convert back to the Catholic faith.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #13 on: November 16, 2023, 08:04:21 AM »
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  • Conte:
    Quote
    Archbishop Vigano rejects the Second Vatican Council, calling it “the conciliar cancer”. But all the dioceses of the world have accepted Vatican II and have put its decision on doctrine and discipline in to practice. The Bishops of the world have continuously taught the doctrines of Vatican II, and its decisions on discipline have been put into practice. Every Pope since Vatican II has accepted the Council and taught from it, and the faithful throughout the world, as a body, have accepted Vatican I and Vatican II as valid Councils. The rejection of Vatican II (and even Vatican I) by some persons today, does not contradict the UPA, as there are always some in the Church whose faith is so weak that they will walk away from the Lord Jesus and His Church, when the Church does not teach what they would like.

    Since Archbishop Vigano rejects the validity of Pope Francis as well as the validity of the Second Vatican Council, Vigano is a schismatic who is automatically excommunicated.

    At least Conte rightly applies the principles behind UPA to both the legitimacy of Jorge and to the acceptability / Catholicity of Vatican II and the NOM.  So for you not-so-bright Trads who are defending Conte's thesis, he's condemning you right here as well.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Conte Declares +Vigano Excommunicated
    « Reply #14 on: November 16, 2023, 08:21:33 AM »
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  • We hare our resident Old Catholics, such as DR, trying to use UPA to justify their heretical rejection of the Church's indefectibility.



    I made no mention of UPA. Concentrate, and stop responding to straw men standing in your mind.

    What I did mention, rather quote, was Scripture, and Cardinal Manning, speaking with the Spirit of Truth, and in perfect unison with the Word.

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.