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Author Topic: Conclavism Revisited  (Read 4449 times)

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Offline Miser Peccator

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Re: Conclavism Revisited
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2022, 09:13:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: bodeens on June 03, 2022, 01:41:00 AM
    This is a false dichotomy that traps Dingbat into saying she is pro-abortion if she supports or thinks Vigano may be right about some things. This is outright uncharitable. Nobody here supports abortion. This is the kind of textbook consensus breaking that was leaked by Snowden. Are you interested or otherwise invested in keeping SV/SP/RnR/Indult separated? We agree on many things but this is your most bizarre and unnuanced position.

    Nobody thinks this solution is ideal but we absolutely need a pope.

    The question about supporting pro-abortion candidates was not meant to indicate that Dingbat supports abortion.

    The point is an analogy that even if a candidate is absolutely wonderful on so many issues, and we really, really, need that candidate to win

    we still can't compromise on the abortion issue.

    In the same way, Vigano could be spot on about everything 

    but he continues to promote mass murderer Trump

    who is continuing to kill our friends and family as we speak.

    A pope who promotes a mass murderer is not a good thing.









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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Conclavism Revisited
    « Reply #16 on: June 03, 2022, 10:03:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: Miser Peccator on June 02, 2022, 11:34:33 PM
    This is farrrr bigger than just "not being perfect".

    Vigano helped a mass murderer get elected.

    Instead of admitting his mistake and calling out the mass murderer

    You assume a lot.
    You assume that it's public knowledge Trump's hands are dripping with blood AND that Vigano has noted this fact, but maliciously carried on supporting Trump.

    NO, and NO.

    I don't think the Truth is like the Faith where either "you have it, or you don't". Denying or missing one Truth means you're a heretic who doesn't have the Faith.
    No, it doesn't work that way.
    With the Faith and dogmas, yes. If you deny one dogma, you lack THE ENTIRE FAITH and are a heretic. BUT EVEN THEN, if you are just in material heresy, you are guiltless! If someone corrected you (showed you what the Church teaches) and you'd accept it -- that isn't formal heresy.

    You need to learn about "invincible ignorance".

    But when it comes to Truth, you could be a real fighter, a truther, a good guy, who is totally ignorant about this or that unpopular truth. That doesn't invalidate everything you're doing in some other area! Not everyone knows everything, or has the 100% full package of truth about what cօռspιʀαcιҽs have happened to date.

    Vigano could be invincibly ignorant about the Covid vaccines, and/or Trump's role in promoting/developing them.

    Some say Trump didn't know the vaccines were bad either. That he was just ignorant, not malicious. It's not like I can say I have proof to the contrary. 
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Conclavism Revisited
    « Reply #17 on: June 03, 2022, 10:38:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on June 02, 2022, 04:43:43 PM
    A conclave is a specific type of election.  There isn't even any divinely instituted requirement that a pope be elected never mind by a college of Cardinals, never mind by a a conclave of the Cardinals.  There is a tradition that the first couple of successors of Peter were designated by Peter, himself.  The only requirement is that the candidate be a Catholic male who is not otherwise prevented from entering the clerical state (maybe because he is married with young children).  There is no notion of validity as far as how a candidate is selected.  The proper term is legitimacy.  But a candidate is considered legitimate if he is a Catholic male and is capable of entering the clerical state and the Roman clergy accept his candidacy/claim.  Even if all the other rules specified by the latest papal docuмent concerning papal elections are violated, if the Roman clergy accept the candidate peacefully, then the candidate is in fact the pope.  The history of papal elections is full of scandal.  The papacy has actually been bought from time to time.  But even in those cases, the acceptance of the Roman clergy was considered as legitimizing the election.  As long as the candidate is Catholic and either already is a cleric or at least willing to enter the clerical state, then he would be pope.  If necessary, he would have to agree to be ordained and/or consecrated.  That is important since arguably the Novus Ordo has invalid orders.  So any scenario that involves someone attached to the Novus Ordo would have to include ordination/consecration.  And of course, the candidate must be Catholic.  The Novus Ordo is objectively a non-Catholic sect.  So the candidate would have to renounce the Novus Ordo.  I don't see Vigano as going to those lengths.  He may think V2 is a disaster but I don't think he will ever admit that his consecration is doubtful.  He has too much invested in that.

    Father Hesse gave a lecture touching on these points. He said the conclave rules have been modified over the centuries and are subject to change, depending on the necessities of the Holy See.

    But, the takeaway was, the Conclave’s validity is subject to the rules of the day.

    In the 1958 Conclave, there was a masonic Cardinal who left the group to go out and make a status report phone ☎️ call (to his Jєωιѕн liaison).

    That one act invalidated the Conclave.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Conclavism Revisited
    « Reply #18 on: June 03, 2022, 11:10:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on June 03, 2022, 10:38:33 AM
    Father Hesse gave a lecture touching on these points. He said the conclave rules have been modified over the centuries and are subject to change, depending on the necessities of the Holy See.

    But, the takeaway was, the Conclave’s validity is subject to the rules of the day.

    In the 1958 Conclave, there was a masonic Cardinal who left the group to go out and make a status report phone ☎️ call (to his Jєωιѕн liaison).

    That one act invalidated the Conclave.

    You know, you bring up a very good point.

    How do you determine if something is invalid? THE RULES were broken, or not followed. Not the rules from centuries past, or the years to come, but the CURRENT RULES. What other rules could you go by?

    This is similar to a modern-day issue. (You'll excuse me for bringing up the two-party political farce in America.) The current rules for who wins the Presidency involves getting 270 votes in the Electoral College. Some say Trump (and others) didn't legitimately win the Presidency, because he didn't win the popular vote. But that isn't/wasn't the objective rule for winning the election in November 2016. You can't just make up rules. If, for some reason, the Electoral College had been done away with in favor of a raw popular vote, then of course Trump would have run a whole different campaign strategy. So you can't deal in hypotheticals and alternate universes -- we must limit ourselves to ACTUAL, PRESENT DAY rules.

    If violating the PRESENT RULES IN PLACE doesn't invalidate something, I don't know what would.
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    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Conclavism Revisited
    « Reply #19 on: June 03, 2022, 11:16:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on June 03, 2022, 10:03:03 AM

    Vigano could be invincibly ignorant about the Covid vaccines, and/or Trump's role in promoting/developing them.

    Some say Trump didn't know the vaccines were bad either. That he was just ignorant, not malicious. It's not like I can say I have proof to the contrary.


    I've covered this in other threads but you might not have seen them.

    Vigano's own words show that he is not ignorant:

    "Let us have no illusions: these servants of the nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr who have managed to occupy the highest positions of national governments and international organizations are our enemies: enemies of the good and enemies of God. They do not care how many of us will have to die from the effects of the vaccine"

    How can Vigano lament the thousands of deaths and injuries and call those government leaders who don't care how many will die the "enemy of the good" and the "enemy of God"

    but still support Trump,

    who is a government leader Vigano helped get elected who doesn't care how many will die which is public knowledge because Trump continues to promote the shots, on TV and at his rallies and every chance he gets, killing more people?

    Why doesn't Vigano call Trump an enemy of the good and an enemy of God?

    Instead Vigano told the crowd at the Awaken America Rally that the pandemic farce would have never taken place under Trump.  That's a lie.  We all know the pandemic farce took place under Trump.  Without a pandemic farce under Trump there would have been no need for a vaccine.  Without Trump's Operation Warpspeed there would be no vaccine.

    If Trump was ignorant about the shots, he isn't any more.  There are tens of thousands of deaths reported in VAERS and reporters have called him on that. The anti-vax doctors all speak at the Awaken America Tours! 

    Why did Vigano reassure the Awaken America Rally crowd in April that Trump is the rightful president when he knows children and babies are continuing to die from his death jab?  Who wants a mass murdering president?

    Why doesn't Vigano call on Trump (and at the rally call on Eric), to use their influence to stop the deadly genocide before they stab the babies?    He's used his letters to influence Trump before.  He should be using his influence on Trump now to urge him to stop the genocide. 

    If you helped get Trump elected and had some influence on him wouldn't you plead with him to stop promoting the shots and tell the people how deadly they are? 

    Why does Vigano write volumes on who is responsible for the Great Reset and never implicates Trump, the Father of The Vaccine?  He's seen as an expert on the subject but in all of his research he never came across Operation Warpspeed?

    Why hasn't Vigano apologized for his misjudgement about helping to elect Trump the mass murderer?

    On the contrary, he continues to promote him.

    Vigano names names and calls out everyone

    except the guy he helped get elected. 

    Instead he lies to cover for him.


    Trump--The pause on Johnson and Johnson was stupid and I am the Father of the Vaccine:
    1min 3sec

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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Conclavism Revisited
    « Reply #20 on: June 03, 2022, 03:58:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on June 02, 2022, 04:43:43 PM
    A conclave is a specific type of election.  There isn't even any divinely instituted requirement that a pope be elected never mind by a college of Cardinals, never mind by a a conclave of the Cardinals.  There is a tradition that the first couple of successors of Peter were designated by Peter, himself.  The only requirement is that the candidate be a Catholic male who is not otherwise prevented from entering the clerical state (maybe because he is married with young children).  There is no notion of validity as far as how a candidate is selected.  The proper term is legitimacy.  But a candidate is considered legitimate if he is a Catholic male and is capable of entering the clerical state and the Roman clergy accept his candidacy/claim.  Even if all the other rules specified by the latest papal docuмent concerning papal elections are violated, if the Roman clergy accept the candidate peacefully, then the candidate is in fact the pope.  The history of papal elections is full of scandal.  The papacy has actually been bought from time to time.  But even in those cases, the acceptance of the Roman clergy was considered as legitimizing the election.  As long as the candidate is Catholic and either already is a cleric or at least willing to enter the clerical state, then he would be pope.  If necessary, he would have to agree to be ordained and/or consecrated.  That is important since arguably the Novus Ordo has invalid orders.  So any scenario that involves someone attached to the Novus Ordo would have to include ordination/consecration.  And of course, the candidate must be Catholic.  The Novus Ordo is objectively a non-Catholic sect.  So the candidate would have to renounce the Novus Ordo.  I don't see Vigano as going to those lengths.  He may think V2 is a disaster but I don't think he will ever admit that his consecration is doubtful.  He has too much invested in that.
    How do we know that Vigano hasn’t already had himself conditionally consecrated, and everybody is just keeping quiet about it for now?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Conclavism Revisited
    « Reply #21 on: June 03, 2022, 04:46:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Miser Peccator on June 03, 2022, 11:16:43 AM

    I've covered this in other threads but you might not have seen them.

    Vigano's own words show that he is not ignorant:

    Everybody's sick of hearing about your obsession with the jab and with Trump.  You pollute and attempt to derail every single thread with this nonsense, while discrediting the anti-jab movement by promoting one insane speculation after another as fact.  Take it somewhere else.
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    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Conclavism Revisited
    « Reply #22 on: June 03, 2022, 04:52:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 03, 2022, 04:46:54 PM
    Everybody's sick of hearing about your obsession with the jab and with Trump.  You pollute and attempt to derail every single thread with this nonsense, while discrediting the anti-jab movement by promoting one insane speculation after another as fact.  Take it somewhere else.

    Well, you are welcome to your opinion about me and to express your feelings.

    Is there a point of evidence you would like to dispute?
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    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Conclavism Revisited
    « Reply #23 on: June 03, 2022, 05:10:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 03, 2022, 04:46:54 PM
    Everybody's sick of hearing about your obsession with the jab and with Trump.  You pollute and attempt to derail every single thread with this nonsense, while discrediting the anti-jab movement by promoting one insane speculation after another as fact.  Take it somewhere else.
    Do you think Vigano is discrediting the anti-jab movement as well?


    "[In 2018] at the Davos Forum the CEO of Pfizer Albert Bourla said: “Imagine a biological chip that is included in a pill, that when it is swallowed goes into the stomach and emits a signal. […] Imagine the applications, the possibility of making people obey. […] What is happening in this field is fascinating” (here). And Albert Bourla says “what is happening” because he is talking about existing technologies, not imaginary projects. The presence of graphene and self-assembling nano-circuits is now admitted even by those who a year ago called those who were sounding the alarm “conspiracy theorists.” The populations of the nations adhering to the Agenda 2030 are now mostly “vaccinated,” or rather they have been genetically modified and their immune systems have now been compromised in an irreversible way. And perhaps – as some lawyers are now denouncing – it will be discovered that along with the genetic serum they have injected chips that are capable of controlling even people’s reactions, interfering with their behavior, and making them docile if there are riots, or violent if it is necessary to have a pretext for military interventions."   --Vigano
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Conclavism Revisited
    « Reply #24 on: June 03, 2022, 05:22:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Miser Peccator on June 03, 2022, 05:10:27 PM
    Do you think Vigano is discrediting the anti-jab movement as well?

    No, but you need to get off this stupid Trump obsession.  Trump was a con-man, and he conned many people, including Traditional Catholics, into thinking he might have been genuine and the real deal.  So what?  That doesn't make them bad Catholics, just mistaken.  Give it a rest.  I was arguing with a lot of people here for many years, going back to the early days of Trump.

    Did you vote for Trump in 2016 and/or 2020?  If so, thhen you too were mistaken about him.  Most supported him and voted for him in good faith, and +Vigano likewise supported him in good faith, although he was mistaken, and in that he joins a very large club.

    And in fact, +Vigano was speaking more to the Trump movement than to Trump himself, and that movement consisted mostly of well-meaning people, even if they were taken for a ride by the con-man.  Those very people geneally boo Trump every time he brings up the jab.

    https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-12-22/trump-tells-followers-he-got-a-booster-shot-they-booed
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    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Conclavism Revisited
    « Reply #25 on: June 03, 2022, 05:46:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 03, 2022, 05:22:34 PM
    No, but you need to get off this stupid Trump obsession.  Trump was a con-man, and he conned many people, including Traditional Catholics, into thinking he might have been genuine and the real deal.  So what?  That doesn't make them bad Catholics, just mistaken.  Give it a rest.  I was arguing with a lot of people here for many years, going back to the early days of Trump.

    Did you vote for Trump in 2016 and/or 2020?  If so, thhen you too were mistaken about him.  Most supported him and voted for him in good faith, and +Vigano likewise supported him in good faith, although he was mistaken, and in that he joins a very large club.

    And in fact, +Vigano was speaking more to the Trump movement than to Trump himself, and that movement consisted mostly of well-meaning people, even if they were taken for a ride by the con-man.
    Where did I say that Catholics who were fooled by Trump were bad people?  

    I did not vote for Trump in either election and tried to warn people about him.  No biggie since I got conned and voted for both Bush Sr and Jr.

    Vigano got conned.  Okay, that's fine.

    Now he needs to own it and call Trump out but he won't.  We need a pope who will call out mass murdering lying politicians not promote them.

    Instead Vigano covers for Trump's murderous deeds and lies to Trump supporters encouraging them to still have faith in their "rightful president".  Vigano is taking them for a ride.

    As a spiritual leader Vigano should remind Trump he will be held accountable by God.

    Vigano should try to save the children and babies by using his influence with Trump to stop the genocide, but he doesn't.

    This shows weakness, deceit, and lack of integrity.  Is that the kind of pope we want?

    This is like saying to a young girl in love, "You do know your boyfriend is lying to your face," and she responds

    "But he's sooo handsome, and rich and he has such a cool car and we are in love and we'll get married and live happily ever after!"

    Okay.











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    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Conclavism Revisited
    « Reply #26 on: June 03, 2022, 06:20:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Miser Peccator on June 03, 2022, 09:13:19 AM
    The question about supporting pro-abortion candidates was not meant to indicate that Dingbat supports abortion.

    The point is an analogy that even if a candidate is absolutely wonderful on so many issues, and we really, really, need that candidate to win

    we still can't compromise on the abortion issue.

    In the same way, Vigano could be spot on about everything

    but he continues to promote mass murderer Trump

    who is continuing to kill our friends and family as we speak.

    A pope who promotes a mass murderer is not a good thing.

    You still have ZERO way to establish Vigano's culpability, this really is an internal form issue and what you're doing is indistinguishable from consensus breaking.
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    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Conclavism Revisited
    « Reply #27 on: June 03, 2022, 06:45:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 03, 2022, 05:22:34 PM

    https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-12-22/trump-tells-followers-he-got-a-booster-shot-they-booed

    This is what is so crazy.

    These people know Trump's shot is killing their friends and family but they still love him and still want him as president.

    "Trump you're pushing the shot and that's killing thousands and wounding millions so we will booo you.  Yet we still love you and want you as our president."  

    Stockholm syndrome.

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    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Conclavism Revisited
    « Reply #28 on: June 03, 2022, 07:00:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: bodeens on June 03, 2022, 06:20:47 PM
    You still have ZERO way to establish Vigano's culpability, this really is an internal form issue and what you're doing is indistinguishable from consensus breaking.


    Hey, I'd love a great pope who would unite the trads.

    It's sad to see what people are willing to compromise to get that.

    A pope who is clearly either willing to lie to cover for "his candidate" or is sooo out of touch that he has no idea whatsoever that the pandemic farce took place under "his candidate" as well as Operation Warpspeed generating the vaccine when it was nightly headline news for 9 months is not the strong pope we need. 

    A pope who will make public statements at political rallies without doing at least a little bit of research to see if that candidate he helped get elected and is continuing to support is still promoting the death shot, especially since he is soooo very outspoken about government leaders who promote the shot, is so inept that he should not be making public political statements.  

    I don't know.  Trump said he could shoot somebody in Time square and people would still vote for him.  It looks like that would also apply to Vigano.






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    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



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    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Conclavism Revisited
    « Reply #29 on: June 03, 2022, 08:58:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on June 03, 2022, 11:10:51 AM
    You know, you bring up a very good point.

    How do you determine if something is invalid? THE RULES were broken, or not followed. Not the rules from centuries past, or the years to come, but the CURRENT RULES. What other rules could you go by?

    If violating the PRESENT RULES IN PLACE doesn't invalidate something, I don't know what would.

    It is possible (and I am personally inclined to believe) that skullduggery was involved in the 1958 conclave.  The Church does not declare pontifical reigns invalid because of skullduggery.  Examples abound in Church history.  Particularly amusing is the history of the papacy during the 1040's:

    1044: Benedict IX (who obtained the Papal office through bribes in 1032) is chased from Rome by its citizens.

    Jan. 1045: Sylvester III is elected.

    March 1045: Benedict IX returns to Rome and deposes Sylvester III.

    May 1045: Benedict IX sells the office to Gregory VI.

    1046: Gregory VI resigns and is replaced by Clement II.

    1047: Benedict IX again seizes the throne upon the death of Clement II.

    1048: Benedict IX is driven from Rome by the German emperor, to be replaced by Damasus II.

    Plenty of material is here to raise doubts about the validity of the beginnings and endings of various pontificates, yet each one is recognized by the Church and is listed in the Annuario Pontificio, including all three reigns of Benedict IX.

    Assuming one day one of the various conjectures concerning Cardinal Siri were proved true, the Church would still recognize the pontificate of John XXIII.
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