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Author Topic: CONCILIAR POPES III  (Read 1600 times)

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Offline Adolphus

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CONCILIAR POPES III
« on: July 04, 2015, 12:54:28 AM »
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  • CONCILIAR POPES – III

    July 4, 2015
    Number CDXVI (416)
     
    The Church officials’ minds no longer work?
    Measures extreme God may not have to shirk.


    Readers of these “Comments,” “Conciliar Popes I” and “II” of six and four weeks ago respectively, may well have carried away the impression that the “Comments” hold that Pope Francis “may be inculpable for his ignorance of his blasphemies and heresies,” as one reader put it. That is a mistaken impression. While today’s universal liberalism may excuse “partly” and “relatively” the Conciliar Popes’ destruction of the Catholic Church, it certainly does not excuse it completely. Their culpability, at least partial, is common sense, and proof of it is not difficult to follow.

    The Catholic Church belongs to God. He founded it and he designed it to function with human beings as his instruments. These human officials of his Church he will never allow completely to destroy it, but nor will he take away their free-will, with the result that each of them can greatly merit or demerit by the way in which he uses or abuses his office. However, upon that use or abuse depends the salvation of many other souls besides his own. How then can one imagine God not offering to these officials all the grace they need to fulfil their official duties for the good of souls? If then the Conciliar Popes, Cardinals and Bishops are all truly appointed Church officials, as they appear to be and as few deny who are not sedevacantists, then they are receiving from God grace sufficient to run the Church well. If then, broadly speaking, they are running it into the ground, they must be refusing graces of state, graces of their office. And if they are refusing the grace of God in the fulfilment of their duty, they cannot be wholly blameless. They may not be to blame for the mushy world around them, but God’s grace would ultimately lead their minds out of the mush, if they wanted. They do not want, because then they would have to confront that mushy world.

    Let us imagine a concrete example which must have happened in real life in the 1970’s many times. A little old grandmother manages to approach the Holy Father. In a flood of tears she explains that her grandson was a good boy when he entered the (Conciliar) seminary, but there he lost not only his vocation but also his faith and even his virtue. If, as is most likely, the Conciliar Pope relies on officials around him to brush her off, he is not innocent, because little old grandmothers can be unmistakably genuine. But these Popes prefer their Conciliar dream, in harmony with the world.

    And here is a real example from Brazil, probably in the 1980’s. John-Paul II was holding a meeting of diocesan bishops to discuss the apostolate in their dioceses. At a given moment a young bishop stood up to say that the flock in his diocese was being ravaged by ecuмenism’s promoting the invasion of Protestant sects from the USA, a familiar disaster for many years now throughout Latin America. The Pope listened to the bishop’s testimony, but within a short time he was back to promoting exactly that ecuмenism which the bishop had just denounced. When confronted with the Catholic reality, the Pope preferred his Conciliar dream. How could he be completely innocent?

    It would follow that these Popes are neither wholly innocent nor wholly guilty of the Church’s present devastation. How much are they the one, how much the other? God alone knows. But if a good Pope was appointed, and protected by God, to sift the Church officials, clean out the bad ones and promote the good ones, he would appoint a tribunal or inquisition – yes, inquisition – to force each official to choose openly between Truth or mush. Would it be an easy task? No, because mush-merchants have no difficulty in pretending that they love truth, and they can easily believe themselves that they deal only in truth. They can fit their minds to anything, and to the opposite of anything. Then what can be done? A Chastisement, to clean out the Augean stables.

    Kyrie eleison.


    Offline Adolphus

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    CONCILIAR POPES III
    « Reply #1 on: July 04, 2015, 09:28:10 AM »
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  • I would like to know what exactly His Excellency means by wholly innocent and wholly guilty.

    When one sins, is that person wholly guilty?

    When one apostates, is that person wholly guilty?

    When one denies a dogma, is that person wholly guilty?

    Does one need to be wholly guilty when denying a dogma to be considered heretic?


    Offline JPaul

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    CONCILIAR POPES III
    « Reply #2 on: July 04, 2015, 03:41:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: Adolphus
    I would like to know what exactly His Excellency means by wholly innocent and wholly guilty.

    When one sins, is that person wholly guilty?

    When one apostates, is that person wholly guilty?

    When one denies a dogma, is that person wholly guilty?

    Does one need to be wholly guilty when denying a dogma to be considered heretic?


    It would depend upon whether or not such a one is sincere, or half guilty............... :shocked:

    Offline JPaul

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    CONCILIAR POPES III
    « Reply #3 on: July 04, 2015, 09:46:16 PM »
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  • Conciliar Mush III

    They are receiving from God grace sufficient to run the Church well,
    And yet they still continue to drag good souls to Hell.......


    Quote
    “If then the Conciliar Popes, Cardinals and Bishops are all truly appointed Church officials, as they appear to be and as few deny who are not sedevacantists, then they are receiving from God grace sufficient to run the Church well.”


    Two points, perhaps there are too few besides the sedevacantists, who would deny them legitimacy for their heresies and apostasy, and perhaps if such impediments  exist, they are actually receiving no grace and thus they act as minions of the Devil and destroyers of Christ's Church, unimpeded by Catholic considerations.

    Quote
    “They may not be to blame for the mushy world around them, but God’s grace would ultimately lead their minds out of the mush, if they wanted”

     Thus they are guilty.

    Quote
    “They do not want, because then they would have to confront that mushy world. “


    What they want is of no matter or importance. It is what they are obligated and required to do that is at issue. And may we say, that they participate in, and promulgate the mushy world that they are in, thus, they are guilty.

    Quote
    “The Pope listened to the bishop’s testimony, but within a short time he was back to promoting exactly that ecuмenism which the bishop had just denounced. When confronted with the Catholic reality, the Pope preferred his Conciliar dream. How could he be completely innocent? “


    Of course he is not. He is guilty for having the truth placed before him and the by his own free will rejecting it in favor of what suited him. Non Serviam.

    The Church's ancient teaching, The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Satan.
    A man is in one or he is to be found in the other. There is no way to be half in or out. A man's subjective desires cannot buy him a permission to  straddle the two.

    The Catholic Pope Leo XIII teaches thus on the perils of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, which after all is the foundation of the conciliar revolution,

    Quote
    The race of man, after its miserable fall from God, the Creator and the Giver of heavenly gifts, "through the envy of the devil," separated into two diverse and opposite parts, of which the one steadfastly contends for truth and virtue, the other of those things which are contrary to virtue and to truth. The one is the kingdom of God on earth, namely, the true Church of Jesus Christ; and those who desire from their heart to be united with it, so as to gain salvation, must of necessity serve God and His only-begotten Son with their whole mind and with an entire will. The other is the kingdom of Satan, in whose possession and control are all whosoever follow the fatal example of their leader and of our first parents, those who refuse to obey the divine and eternal law, and who have many aims of their own in contempt of God, and many aims also against God.

     This twofold kingdom St. Augustine keenly discerned and described after the manner of two cities, contrary in their laws because striving for contrary objects; and with a subtle brevity he expressed the efficient cause of each in these words: "Two loves formed two cities: the love of self, reaching even to contempt of God, an earthly city; and the love of God, reaching to contempt of self, a heavenly one."


    Where then must we place the conciliar popes, bishops and officials?



    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #4 on: August 22, 2015, 12:14:15 PM »
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  • .

    These are good questions:

    Quote from: Adolphus

    I would like to know what exactly His Excellency means by wholly innocent and wholly guilty.

    When one sins, is that person wholly guilty?

    When one apostates [apostatizes], is that person wholly guilty?

    When one denies a dogma, is that person wholly guilty?

    Does one need to be wholly guilty when denying a dogma to be considered heretic?



    It comes down to objective vs. subjective reality.

    One is wholly innocent when either he did not do the bad thing, or else he was entirely unaware of his actions and/or his involvement in the action/s.  E.g., an utter lunatic, being insane, cannot be held responsible for committing a crime.

    Wholly guilty means the perpetrator was conscious of his actions and aware of his taking part in the bad thing that happened, even if he may not have been cognizant of how bad it was.  

    When one sins, that person is wholly guilty, and he is responsible to confess his sin to a priest under the seal of confession, to do penance and to amend his life so as to firmly resolve to never sin that way again (because to SAY that he has so resolved while in fact harboring the intention to forget all about this resolution to amend his life in the future is a lie which invalidates the confession, and if the matter is serious, it is a MORTAL sin to thus lie).

    Apostasy is an objective reality.  One might apostatize being fully cognizant of what he is doing, or he might apostatize while being under some delusion that makes him think he is finally seeing the truth, or whatever.  Regardless of his subjective state of confusion or clear thinking, the objective reality of his falling away from the true faith is a thing in itself, and as such, he cannot be his own judge, because his point of view might corrupt any accurate observation of that real thing.

    Regarding denial of dogma, we are all responsible to learn what the Church teaches and to foster a love for the truth.  Fr. Nicholas Gruner (R.I.P.) was very astute in his last years, summarizing the state of the world by saying it is characterized by the vast majority of people worldwide no longer having any love for the truth.  If dogma is anything, it is truth.  Our Lord said "I am the truth."  So if we would love God, we therefore would also love dogma.  But to deny that which we love would be impossible, for it would prove that we don't really love it at all.  We might SAY that we love God, but if we deny that which He has revealed through the authority of His Church, we would make ourselves liars.  Now, if we are sane, and we are aware of our lie, we are wholly responsible and wholly guilty.  However, even if we are insane, the objective reality of our denial is a thing in itself;  i.e., it could scandalize children (for which it would be better for us to have a millstone tied about our neck and thrown into the depth of the sea).  

    Finally, "Does one need to be wholly guilty when denying a dogma to be considered [a] heretic?"  

    This is a great question.  Traditionally, the Church brings a suspected heretic before a tribunal and explains the heresy he has professed, to be sure that he comprehends what the Church teaches and how it is different from what he has been saying in public (you are not called to a tribunal for errors you keep to yourself).  An example would be the tribunal of Galileo Galilei, 400 years ago.  The subject is given the opportunity to abjure his error and repent of the harm it has done to the faith of any others.  If he does so, he is forgiven, but there might be something he has to do to make up for the damage, such as make a public announcement or make several public appearances in certain places, or whatever.  On the other hand, if he refuses to admit being wrong and continues to persist in his error, he eventually would be judged a heretic, that is, obstinate in his error.  In this case, yes, he is wholly guilty of denying a dogma and consequently deemed a heretic.

    In the process of this tribunal it might become evident that the subject, the man on trial, is somehow incompetent or not mentally intact, or perhaps utterly bonkers.  Or, it could be discovered that he is demonically possessed.  In these cases (and more), there may be several possible proceedings, but in any case, the damage done to others by his professing his error is an objective reality, whether or not the subject is responsible for that damage.  In this kind of case, the subject might still be considered a heretic, depending on the particulars of the case, or, perhaps he would not be considered a heretic, but if not, there would have to be good reasons for such leniency.

    On a personal level, I know a man who was baptized Catholic and raised in a mixed marriage home where his mother was Catholic but his father was Presbyterian.  They are both long deceased, and he has entirely fallen away from the faith, only hanging on to a few trappings of Christianity and continuing to attend his local protestant community meetings on Sundays.  He openly denies the Immaculate Conception and claims that Our Lady had other children.  He raised two daughters scandalizing them with these lies, among others.  When I tried to correct his errors, he fully understood me and wantonly persisted in his error with all the more false zeal and misdirected energy.  Is he a heretic?  

    It seems to me that he apostatized from the faith of his baptism in defiance of his mother's teaching and that of the Church, and as such, he would be a heretic.  But just try and get the local diocese to agree with that!  They're all about making "peace" with false religions, and so they don't want to make waves.  

    If I tell him he's a heretic, he takes that as a personal insult (regardless of whether it is objectively true or not) and then goes and looks for some way of returning the 'favor' in some unrelated way, to get even.  As Andrew Carnegie would say, that's no way to make friends and influence people.

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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #5 on: August 22, 2015, 01:40:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: J.Paul

    Where then must we place the conciliar popes, bishops and officials?



    While it might be fun to pigeon-hole popes, bishops and officials, by passing judgment on their actions, the effects of same, and even upon their intentions, is it really our place to do so?  As the good bishop says, God only knows.  

    Quote from: Actually, here's what He

    It would follow that these Popes are neither wholly innocent nor wholly guilty of the Church’s present devastation. How much are they the one, how much the other? God alone knows.


    While it is human nature to attempt to settle the question and find a resolution that answers all the doubts and brings all the chickens home to roost, in the end, it is the place of Holy Mother Church to do this, and the irony of our present state is, we don't really have a fully functional Church at the present time, and She is especially wanting in the category of passing judgment on the malfeasance of Her own human officials at this time.  

    In fact, what we have going on is quite the opposite.  I have seen in my own diocese, and perhaps you have seen this in yours as well, that in the past 40 years when good Catholics are shocked and disgusted with the bad example of some particular Church official whether cleric or layman, and finding no sympathy at the local level resort to writing complaint letters to Rome, one of two things happens:  

    1)  They get no reply from Rome whatsoever, or,

    2)  They do get a reply, but it is in the form they LEAST suspected, namely, the offending official about whom the complaint was lodged gets PROMOTED to higher and more consequential responsibilities so as to FURTHER spread his shocking, disgusting behavior far and wide.  

    The case +W notes in this EC is par for the course:  A good bishop complains to JPII in PUBLIC, before thousands of witnesses.  They all see the Pope listen intently, then they see him calmly proceed to ignore the complaint and CONTINUE to promote the very same shocking, disgusting behavior -- the mercy regarding which to him the good bishop had just appealed.  

    But there is no such mercy to be found in the Church of this Great Apostasy.          

    This abuse and corruption of the PRINCIPLE of MERCY officially began on October 11th (Feast of the Maternity of Our Lady), A.D. 1962, with John XXIII's Opening Speech of Vatican Council II (quote:  "medicine of mercy" - even while mercy is not medicine..  penance is medicine, but mercy is not medicine).

    Is that why they so-called canonized him a "saint?"

    The only 'mercy' JPII was willing to dispense was his singular step toward the topic of indulgences, when in A.D. 2000 he proclaimed a year of graces, a free-for-all of plenary indulgences, for anyone who would confess to a priest and ask for this grace.  But he never did proclaim any NEW ONGOING indulgences (other than that one-year deal), nor did he (or any other post-conciliar pope) ever renew existing indulgences as has been the continuous tradition in the real Catholic Church from time immemorial (Cf. The Raccolta).

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    Offline JPaul

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    « Reply #6 on: August 22, 2015, 05:20:18 PM »
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  • Neil O
    Quote
    J.Paul said:

    Where then must we place the conciliar popes, bishops and officials?



    While it might be fun to pigeon-hole popes, bishops and officials, by passing judgment on their actions, the effects of same, and even upon their intentions, is it really our place to do so?  As the good bishop says, God only knows.


    This is not an exercise in fun having, for me at least. I presented a relevant teaching by Pope Leo. A fully Catholic pontiff and it is he that presents to us this objective truth calling upon the mind of Saint Augustine as well.
    And so by an objective observation of the activities, teaching, an aberrant behavior of the aforementioned popes and bishops and by then applying this teaching to these, it is quite reasonable to ponder into which Kingdom they fall.

    And as the Bishop is fond of saying, "by their fruits, you will know them"

    Neil O
    Quote
    Actually, here's what He said:

    It would follow that these Popes are neither wholly innocent nor wholly guilty of the Church’s present devastation. How much are they the one, how much the other? God alone knows.


    God alone knows, but by careful application of Catholic Truth and principal, we have a pretty good idea.  These men have full access to the truth and are under the obligation placed upon them by God and their Baptismal vows, to diligently find it and adhere to it.

    It is a tragedy that they choose to instead cling to false truths, but ever the more so that they influence so many Catholic souls follow them into that same Kingdom of Darkness.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #7 on: August 22, 2015, 06:15:04 PM »
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    Thanks for the reply, J.Paul.

    BTW, are you using a cell phone to post?  
    If so, does the QUOTE button not work?
    (The QUOTE button is on the top right of the topic post you're replying to.)
    If not, then you must be unable to use the EDIT button that appears next to it after you submit a post, and you can't PREVIEW a post before you submit it, and you might not even be able to re-check the "Format MbCode?" box when the quote - unquote codes don't correspond by accident and previewed.

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