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Offline Matthew

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  • Communique of the General House on the Meeting between Cardinal Ladaria and Father Pagliarani, November 22, 2018

    Nov 23

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    Communiqué of the General House of the Fraternity of Saint Pius X on the meeting between Cardinal Ladaria and Father Pagliarani, 22 November 2018
    On Thursday, November 22, 2018, Father Davide Pagliarani, Superior General of the Fraternity of Saint Pius X, visited Rome at the invitation of Cardinal Luis Ladaria Ferrer, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. He was accompanied by Father Emmanuel du Chalard. Cardinal Ladaria was assisted by Mgr Guido Pozzo, Secretary of the Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei”.
    The interview took place in the offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, from 4:30 p.m. to 6:30 p.m. Its purpose was to allow Cardinal Ladaria and Father Pagliarani to meet for the first time and to review together the relations between the Holy See and the Fraternity of Saint Pius X, since the election of his new Superior General last July.
    During the meeting with the Roman authorities, it was recalled that the fundamental problem is indeed doctrinal, and neither the Fraternity nor Rome can avoid it. It is because of this irreducible doctrinal divergence that any attempt to elaborate a draft doctrinal declaration acceptable to both parties has not been successful for seven years. This is why the doctrinal question remains absolutely essential.
    The Holy See does not say anything else when it solemnly affirms that the establishment of a legal status for the Fraternity can only be done after the signature of a document of a doctrinal nature.
    Everything therefore pushes the Fraternity to resume the theological discussion, well aware that the Good Lord does not necessarily ask it to convince its interlocutors, but to bring before the Church the unconditional witness of the faith.
    The future of the Fraternity is in the hands of Providence and the Most Blessed Virgin Mary, as shown by its entire history, from its foundation to the present day.
    The members of the Fraternity want nothing more than to serve the Church and cooperate effectively in its regeneration, even to the point of giving their lives for its triumph, if necessary. But they cannot choose the way, the terms or the moment of what belongs to God alone.
    Menzingen, 23 November 2018





    Brief Commentary:
    • The communique recalls that the differences between Menzingen and Rome are indeed doctrinal, and because of this “doctrinal divergence” (not so deep as in previous years!), attempts to reach an acceptable doctrinal declaration (in advance of a juridical “regularization”) have been unsuccessful.
    But then comes the non-sequitur (i.e., A conclusion or statement which does not logically follow from the previous statement):
    “Everything therefore pushes the Fraternity to resume the theological discussion.”
    No.
    In fact, it is precisely the opposite which is the case:
    Everything indicates the pointless nature of resumed doctrinal discussions if in fact the “doctrinal divergence” remains intact.
    Consequently, we are left to conclude that either Menzingen is willing to blur its own doctrinal positions (Something it has been doing already since at least 2009, with the scandalous statements of Bishop Fellay in his CNS interview accepting in principle religious liberty, in addition to his placing the Second Vatican Council within the Church’s Tradition), or, Rome is converting to Tradition.
    It is obvious which of the two has transpired.
    • After the non-sequitur follows this amazing statement: “…the Good Lord does not necessarily ask it to convince its interlocutors, but to bring before the Church the unconditional witness of the faith.”
    This is the official announcement of the abandonment of any requirement of conversion on the part of Rome back to Tradition as a prerequisite for a juridical “regularization.” As such, it reverses the official position of the SSPX in effect from 1988 - 2012 (but as recounted elsewhere, had been undermined within the SSPX at least since GREC in 1997, and according to Bishop Williamson in a recent conference 1, was already being undermined during the Archbishop’s lifetime).
    Moreover, the quotation carries within itself an internal contradiction:
    The Good Lord, apparently, does not require of the SSPX to try to convert Rome, but only to bear witness to the Faith. But, if the SSPX is not interested in converting Rome back to the Faith, in what way is it bringing the Church an unconditional witness of the faith?
    And more to the point, what is the purpose of these discussions, from the perspective of Tradition, if not to convince Rome of its errors and bring it to conversion?
    With Archbishop Lefebvre, the purpose of discussions was very clear:
    Quote
    “We have been at cross purposes in these conversations. On our side, we are expecting the return of Tradition to Rome. On their side, they do not budge.”
    http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/To_the_Four_Bishops_Elect_June_13_1988.htm
    But from the level of common sense, a branded SSPX which fears to upset Rome with any criticism of Vatican II and the post-conciliar reform is in no position to enter into doctrinal discussions with Rome, much less pretend it is bringing “the Church an unconditional witness of the faith.”
    Far from it!
    I woud be less critical of Menzingen if it would just come out and say, “After 10 years of branding and refusing to condemn the conciliar errors, we believe we have successfully prepared minds (clerical and lay) for the acceptance of an accord with unconverted Rome, and consequently we believe the time is right for us to resume the charade of doctrinal discussions, in order to announce a doctrinal agreement.”
    • “The future of the Fraternity is in the hands of Providence and the Most Blessed Virgin Mary, as shown by its entire history, from its foundation to the present day.”
    In other words, the gratuitous and manifestly false idea that God wants a deal, and backs the ralliement!
    How then was Bishop Tissier de Mallerais telling us in 2012 that the same Blessed Virgin Mary had protected the SSPX by blocking Bishop Fellay’s treasonous deal?
    Note also the reference to “as shown by its entire history…” An attempt to smooth over the abrupt reorientation in 2012 by asserting a fictitious continuity of position with regard to Rome. Nothing could be further from the truth: It is this abrupt reorientation which was the genesis of the Resistance in the first place (If there were truly continuity over the entire history of the SSPX, what reason would we have had to organize in a contrary direction?).
    But just as with the Rosary Crusades, the neo-SSPX does not hesitate to lay claim to the sponsorship of Heaven to endorse its worldly aspirations:
    God wants the betrayal of Tradition, and the death of any substantial opposition to the conciliar errors which have caused the apostasy and damnation of millions.
    It takes ones breath away even to think such a thought, but still they use the technique.
    • “The members of the Fraternity want nothing more than to serve the Church and cooperate effectively in its regeneration, even to the point of giving their lives for its triumph, if necessary. But they cannot choose the way, the terms or the moment of what belongs to God alone.”
    More of the same: God is commanding them to have doctrinal discussions to get a deal from unconverted Rome, and who are they to refuse the manifest will of God?
    More to the point: The organization of the apostolate as it existed in the SSPX from 1988-2011 is no longer “the way.”
    God commands the changes in the SSPX, and what can we do but follow His will?
    At bottom of that idea is one undeniable conclusion: “The way” of Archbishop Lefebvre was wrong. He was wrong, for example, to have said:
    Quote
    “The day when the Vatican will be delivered from this occupation by Modernists and will come back to the path followed by the Church down to Vatican II, our new bishops will put themselves entirely in the hands of our Sovereign Pontiff, to the point of desisting if he so wishes from the exercise of their episcopal functions.”
    https://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/The-Episocopal-Consecrations.htm
    They will say he was right for his time, but we can’t be 1988ers anymore (Fr. Simoulin), and this Pope is giving us everything we could ask for. But it is clear that Francis (as with BXVI and JPII before him) is overtly modernist and hostile to Tradition, and the criterion which Archbishop Lefebvre laid out above (which did not have a shelf-life) has not been met.
    What can neo-Menzingen do but prattle on about how “Its not a trap,” and “there have been no compromises?”

    1


    EMAIL SENT TODAY, NOV. 22, 2018, BY FR. GIROUARD TO HIS PARISHIONERS.
    Dear parishioners from Aldergrove and Post Falls,
    The new General Superior of the Neo-SSPX, Fr. Pagliarani, has been received today in Rome by the President of the Ecclesia Dei Commission (Abp. Pozzo). He had asked for such a meeting after his election of July. You can see more details in the link below.

    SSPX Wants "Round 2" of Doctrinal Discussions! The Crisis
    Quote
    https://www.riposte-catholique.fr/ Deepl.com translation (improved): The superior of the FSSPX received at Ecclesia Dei November 22, 2018 Davide Pagliarani had asked Archbishop Guido Pozzo, Secretary of the Ecclesia Dei Commission, to meet him at the time of his election as Superior General of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X. It is possible that he was received informally for the first time. On 9 November, to the deans of the District of France meeting in Saint-Nicolas du Chardonnet, …
    Let me just say this:
    1-How could any true lover and soldier of Christ the King want to meet with members of an organization (the Conciliar Church) that, as Abp Lefebvre wrote, has uncrowned Him? How can somebody with a clear vision of the Catholic Faith, and of the pure worship due to God Almighty, ever engage in discussions and negotiations with God’s unrepentant ennemies? How can we pretend to work for the salvation of souls, when we “discuss” with those unrepentantly responsible for the loss of millions of souls (many of them our own relatives)?
    2-The Society already had two years of such discussions (2009-2011). The official results were that they have exposed irreconciliable doctrinal differences between the Conciliar Church and the Society. But we know that Rome has not changed since 2011, except in worse. We also know that they are not about to change for the better and reject Vatican II and its “reforms”. Therefore, such new doctrinal discussions, if they have to have any purpose at all, must try to achieve a different conclusion to those of 2009-2011, and this could only happen if the Society is ready to change its own doctrinal views. (In practice, the abandonment in 2012 of the 2006 Declaration was already a change in doctrine, an official shift towards liberalism).
    3-Despite this “disappointing” conclusion of the 2009-2011 discussions, Rome proposed, on September 14th 2011, a “Preamble” for an agreement. It was studied and rejected at a special meeting of SSPX Major Superiors in Albano in October 2011. The fact that this “Preamble” was even studied and discussed by the Society leadership, despite the failure of the 2009-2011 doctrinal discussions, and the fact that Bishop Williamson had been excluded from attending, because of his refusal to stop his Eleison Comments blog, denouncing these tractations with Rome, show us that the desire for a “normalization” was already strong in many hearts…
    4-Despite this October 2011 refusal of the Roman “Preamble”, the Society’s General Superior at the time (Bp. Fellay) maintained contacts with Rome, and proposed to Rome his own version of the Preamble on April 15 2012. This “Declaration” to Rome was only slightly different from the Roman Preamble of 2011. Bishop Fellay then received assurances from his Roman insider “friends” that his Declaration was accepted by the Pope, and that he would be summoned to Rome in June to sign the final agreement. Bishop Fellay and his collaborators then embarked on a worldwide tour of conferences and sermons and TV interviews to promote the idea of a Roman “recognition”.
    5-The only thing that prevented a formal agreement between Rome and the Society at the time was the leakage, on May 10 2012, of the letters exchanged in April 7 and 14 of that year between Bishop Fellay and the three other SSPX bishops, who were opposed to his Declaration (which he had submitted to them before sending it to Rome on April 15). This leakage, and the “promotion” tour of Bp Fellay and his friends, having created a strong public reaction from many SSPX priests, Rome declared, on May 16th 2012, that the cases of Bishop Fellay and of the 3 dissenting bishops would have to be dealt with separately by Rome. This was a way of saying that, because of the internal dissensions at the highest level in the Society, a general agreement between Conciliar Rome and the Society was not possible at the time. In other words: Before Rome could “normalize” the Society, the Society would have to clean up its own mess and come back with a united front.
    6-Then Rome, as promised, summoned Bp Fellay to Rome. He quickly complied, and was there on June 13. But there he was given to sign a new version of his April 15 Declaration that had an added paragraph asking for full acceptance of Vatican II. Thus Rome allowed Bp Fellay to save face within the Society, by giving him an official reason to refuse Rome’s latest proposition, and thus to appear “traditional” again. Bishop Fellay then declared that all contacts with Rome were stopped and that the Society was “back to square one” (June 13, 2012).
    7-Despite this “valiant” refusal of Rome’s June proposition by Bp. Fellay, the subsequent General Chapter (July 2012) made a 180 degrees change in Society policy, and officially declared that the Declaration of the 2006 General Chapter (“no practical agreement without a doctrinal agreement” i.e. no agreement with non-converted Rome) was henceforth null and void, and that a recognition from non-converted Rome could now be accepted, provided Rome fulfilled three “necessary conditions” to protect the Society’s “identity” and “mission”. (More later about this).
    8-Moreover, the 2012 General Chapter, thanks to the intervention of Fr. Pagliarani (yes, the new General Superior!), did not condemn Bp Fellay for his April 15 proposition to Rome. Moreover, it issued a final Declaration of unity, expressively saying that the Society, after some difficult times, had recovered its unity. The General Superior and his Assistants later on proceeded to officially expel, or to move away to the “boonies”, all those who expressed publicly their opposition to the abandonment of the 2006 policy, it is to say Bp Williamson and a few priests (your humble servant being one of them). Thus, only a few months after Rome had sent the message that the SSPX Superiors needed to “clean up the Society’s mess” and present a “united front”, it has seen its wishes being granted!
    9-This led to more meetings with Roman officials, and even with Pope Francis, and to the September 2014 adoption by Abp Pozzo and Bp Fellay of a resolution to “regularize” the SSPX situation, and to bring it to “full communion” in a “step-by-step” manner. They also declared that a “regularization” could come before all points of divergence were cleared-up, and that these “difficult questions” could be dealt with, in an atmosphere of “fraternal charity”, after the “normalization”.
    10-This was followed by “concessions” from Rome that “regularized” the Society’s administration of the sacraments of: Penance (on a provisional basis in 2014, and then permanently in 2015); Holy Orders (2016); and Matrimony (2017). These “concessions” brought the Society, at least for the administration of these three sacraments, under the rule of the Code of Canon Law of 1983 (which, as J-P II said in its Preface, puts into laws the teachings of Vatican II). These “concessions” were all gratefully and officially accepted by the Society’s General Council (Bp Fellay and his two Assistants).
    All that precedes is to show that the doctrinal discussions of 2009-2011 have led to a point where, had it not been for the May 2012 leakage of the letters exchanged by the four bishops, the Society would have been “recognized” by non-converted Rome in the spring of 2012, and given a statute of Personal Prelature.
    And even if this plan was not achieved in June of 2012, it nevertheless led to radical changes in the Society’s orientations and membership, just a few months later!
    (A quick side note about the 2012 General Chapter “necessary conditions” to an agreement with the Conciliar Church: These Neo-SSPX “conditions” are reminiscent of the language used in all the agreements signed by other traditional Congregations with the Conciliar Church! Indeed, all these agreements proclaim that Rome promises to protect the “special grace and charisma” of the Institute! Now, just think a little bit, and you will see how such language is very revealing! Indeed, if Rome declares that being Catholic is a “special grace and charisma” of a religious Institute that needs a special approval and protection from Rome, it implies that Rome doesn’t consider being Catholic as being “mainstream” and “normal” in the Conciliar Church! And that is because the Conciliar Church is officially ecumenical since the end of the Council (1965). In other words, when the Conciliar Church “recognizes” a Traditional Institute, it: 1-Declares implicitely that the Conciliar Church itself is different from the Catholic Church; 2-It accepts Tradition in the spirit of ecumenism, it is to say that of “Unity in Diversity”).
    Back to November 22, 2018: Now, what can we reasonably expect from Fr. Pagliarani’s request of a re-opening of “doctrinal discussions” with Rome?
    Obviously, nothing good!
    Indeed, during the 2009-2011 doctrinal discussions, the Society was still officially guided by the Declaration of the 2006 General Chapter mentioned above (#7). Moreover, during these discussions, the Society had 3 out of 4 bishops who were opposed to a “practical” agreement with non-converted Rome. The Society also could then count in its bosom a good number of staunchly anti-liberal priests who were not afraid to publicly “bark at the wolves in sheep clothing”.
    But, in 2018, the Society will start a new round of doctrinal discussions with Conciliar Rome on a much weaker basis! Because, since 2012, the Society has changed deeply!
    Indeed, since 2012, the Society: 1- Has accepted the principle of an agreement with a Conciliar Church that would remain Conciliar; 2- It has expelled all its members that were vocally anti-liberals, and Bishops Galarreta and Tissier have changed their minds and joined Bisop Fellay; 3-By accepting the three Roman “concessions” of 2015, 2016, and 2017, it has already placed itself under the jurisdiction of the Modernist Code of Canon Law of 1983 and of Modernist authorities. 4- The 2018 General Chapter has failed, once again, to condemn Bishop Fellay’s Declaration of April 15 2012, which had the initial approval of Pope Benedict XVI. 5-The same 2018 General Chapter has elected at its head five Major Superiors who have been actively seeking a “regularization” from the Conciliar Church. 6-It has also adopted an ambiguous turn of phrase that could be interpreted as giving the new General Superior full and absolute authority to unilaterally sign an agreement with the Conciliar Church, i.e. without the need of an approval by a new General Chapter. (Obviously, such ambiguity in the Society’s own official documents does not bode well for the clarity of the upcoming discussions with Rome!).
    Therefore, if the 2009-2011 discussions led a strong Society to the brink of a formal agreement with the Conciliar Church, we have reason to fear that the 2018 discussions will bring a weak Society to formally agree to make “full” what has been so far a “partial” regularization, in other words, to go from a partial to a full “Communion”. This could only bring a disaster in this world and in the hereafter.
    The Superiors, members, and faithful of the Neo-Society should remember the warning given by Our Lord in the Book of the Apocalypse: "Go out from her (i.e. the Great Babylon sitting on the seven hills = Prostituted Rome), my people: that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues." (Apoc 18:4).
    God have mercy on His Church!
    Fr. Girouard

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    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: Communique of General House on the Meeting between Cardinal Ladaria
    « Reply #1 on: November 23, 2018, 10:02:37 PM »
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  • Communique of the General House on the Meeting between Cardinal Ladaria and Father Pagliarani, November 22, 2018

    Nov 23

    Link 1
    Communiqué of the General House of the Fraternity of Saint Pius X on the meeting between Cardinal Ladaria and Father Pagliarani, 22 November 2018
    The members of the Fraternity want nothing more than to serve the Church and cooperate effectively in its regeneration





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    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: Communique of General House on the Meeting between Cardinal Ladaria
    « Reply #2 on: November 25, 2018, 06:51:29 PM »
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  • Quote
    The Holy See does not say anything else when it solemnly affirms that the establishment of a legal status for the Fraternity can only be done after the signature of a document of a doctrinal nature.


    Ambiguity continues under Fr. Pagliarani. The "document of a doctrinal nature" is no other than the two part "doctrinal preamble" +Fellay was so secretive about in Albano ( the "Ratzinger Profession of Faith"  and the "Oath of Fidelity" to the Pope). The same one ABL rejected and has been and remains the NON NEGOTIABLE part of the deal. Bishop Fellay said in Albano he would have no problem signing it and most likely has already done it. Will Fr. Pagliarani follow ABL or +Fellay? We'll know soon enough.
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline verilyCatholic

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    Re: Communique of General House on the Meeting between Cardinal Ladaria
    « Reply #3 on: March 03, 2019, 09:43:14 PM »
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  • I have some hopes in Fr. Pagliarani. So far, he has spoken well, for instance in his assertion that it is IMPOSSIBLE that the Catholic Church was wrong for the better part of two thousand years. That is good. The Moderns in the Novus Ordo undoubtedly find it incomprehensible. But to me, it speaks to the first issue: how can a complete change to the Church be right if in the time before the change it was virtually perfect? No way!
    I want to hear him speak. Maybe he will have a little more backbone than the weak Vatican lovers who have been running the SSPX. I'm not saying Bishop Fellay was not Catholic. He was pretty good, but there were times when I wondered which side he was on.
    I don't think Fr. Pagliarani speaks English, though he seems to speak pretty good French.
    It is my hope that he is a conservative Catholic and is presently battling behind the scenes with the entrenched Liberals in the Society to bring it to a better place.



    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Communique of General House on the Meeting between Cardinal Ladaria
    « Reply #4 on: March 03, 2019, 11:18:15 PM »
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  • :facepalm:
    Oh, what does it all mean?

    ??

    :sleep:
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline chrstnoel1

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    Offline King Wenceslas

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    Re: Communique of General House on the Meeting between Cardinal Ladaria
    « Reply #6 on: March 05, 2019, 01:20:20 PM »
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  • No matter how far Rome leaves the faith SSPX seems drawn to it like a moth to a flame. Just like FSSP who has now been captured and is hoping beyond hope that Francis is just an aberration. Hate to tell them Francis is not an aberration. He is the true face of Vatican II. When Francis is gone even worse is coming.

    Offline verilyCatholic

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    Re: Communique of General House on the Meeting between Cardinal Ladaria
    « Reply #7 on: March 05, 2019, 04:19:37 PM »
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  • It does rather seem like the SSPX leadership is drawn like a moth to a flame. Back in 1976, Archbishop Lefebvre had a private meeting with Paul VI. After that meeting, he was deflated. He apparently was unwilling to challenge Paul VI directly. In later years, he stated that Paul VI and his Modernist successors might not be popes, but that he chose not to take a position on it. I find no real problem with Society priests today following that line: refusing to choose to say Francis is not a pope.
    I do feel rather nauseated, though, when I hear a Society priest expressing fondness for a man who is quite certainly a heretic in every sense of the word. Nevertheless, if the heretic Francis is the pope, it would be obligatory to try to join him without, of course, compromising one iota of the Faith. As any Catholic can see, there is little or no chance of this event, and I question why any person in the SSPX leadership would express fondness for Francis and his henchmen. They (Francis, etc.) are enemies of the Faith.




     

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