Author Topic: Clerics Need the Pope (Read 1642 times)

Last Tradhican · « **on:** May 28, 2016, 11:28:44 AM »

One can now clearly see what happens to the Church when the pope goes astray, anarchy.

We have witnessed it throughout the Church since the death of Pius XII. Every priest and bishop becomes his own magisterium. We saw the same among traditionalist, even to a greater extent, since priest have gotten themselves (supposedly) consecrated as bishops and now are going around consecrating priest and other bishops.

The discombobulation/diabolical disorientation of Fr. Joseph Pfieffer is the latest, but it is just more of the same.

Now Bp. Fellay wants to do his thing with "his" SSPX.

Bp. Fellay, Bp. Rifan, Fr. Joseph Pfieffer, the nine priest who left the SSPX and started Society of St. Pius V S, all the "Tuck line bishops", ALL of them are the same, self procalimed kings.

Keep the faith, seek valid sacraments, follow truth, forget about going gung-ho for any priestly group or priest until we have a real pope in authority.

qeddeq · « **Reply #1 on:** May 29, 2016, 05:35:51 PM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican

One can now clearly see what happens to the Church when the pope goes astray, anarchy.

We have witnessed it throughout the Church since the death of Pius XII. Every priest and bishop becomes his own magisterium. We saw the same among traditionalist, even to a greater extent, since priest have gotten themselves (supposedly) consecrated as bishops and now are going around consecrating priest and other bishops.

The discombobulation/diabolical disorientation of Fr. Joseph Pfieffer is the latest, but it is just more of the same.

Now Bp. Fellay wants to do his thing with "his" SSPX.

Bp. Fellay, Bp. Rifan, Fr. Joseph Pfieffer, the nine priest who left the SSPX and started Society of St. Pius V S, all the "Tuck line bishops", ALL of them are the same, self procalimed kings.

Keep the faith, seek valid sacraments, follow truth, forget about going gung-ho for any priestly group or priest until we have a real pope in authority.

Do you deny the Thuc line of Bishops? They are not true bishops and therefore the priests ordained by them are not true priests?

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #2 on:** May 29, 2016, 10:33:37 PM »

Quote from: qeddeq

Do you deny the Thuc line of Bishops? They are not true bishops and therefore the priests ordained by them are not true priests?

If priests turned green when they were validly ordained, then I would have no doubts about whether the Novus Ordo or Thuc line ordained were priest or not. Whether someone denies and another believes is of no matter, it definitively answers nothing.

I go where I have no doubts about the validity of the priest, I go to SSPX ordained priests. As long as I can find one, I do not have to confront the question of the validity of the Novus Ordo priests or the Thuc line and all the other sede lines. In the 1990's I had four different priests all ordained before 1965. Now I only have SSPX ordained.

curioustrad · « **Reply #3 on:** May 29, 2016, 11:06:43 PM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican

Quote from: qeddeq

Do you deny the Thuc line of Bishops? They are not true bishops and therefore the priests ordained by them are not true priests?

If priests turned green when they were validly ordained, then I would have no doubts about whether the Novus Ordo or Thuc line ordained were priest or not. Whether someone denies and another believes is of no matter, it definitively answers nothing.

I go where I have no doubts about the validity of the priest, I go to SSPX ordained priests. As long as I can find one, I do not have to confront the question of the validity of the Novus Ordo priests or the Thuc line and all the other sede lines. In the 1990's I had four different priests all ordained before 1965. Now I only have SSPX ordained.

Try starting with the pope needs the Faith and God does not abandon His Church the rest follows, but where the laity supplant the Pope's authority to judge these matters all Hell breaks loose and the Faith is in tatters.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #4 on:** May 30, 2016, 09:08:42 AM »

Quote from: curioustrad

Quote from: Last Tradhican
Quote from: qeddeq

Do you deny the Thuc line of Bishops? They are not true bishops and therefore the priests ordained by them are not true priests?

If priests turned green when they were validly ordained, then I would have no doubts about whether the Novus Ordo or Thuc line ordained were priest or not. Whether someone denies and another believes is of no matter, it definitively answers nothing.

I go where I have no doubts about the validity of the priest, I go to SSPX ordained priests. As long as I can find one, I do not have to confront the question of the validity of the Novus Ordo priests or the Thuc line and all the other sede lines. In the 1990's I had four different priests all ordained before 1965. Now I only have SSPX ordained.

Try starting with the pope needs the Faith and God does not abandon His Church the rest follows, but where the laity supplant the Pope's authority to judge these matters all Hell breaks loose and the Faith is in tatters.

You'll have to explain to me in more detail how that your recomendation ties into my respoonse to the question of the validity Novus Ordo and Thuc line ordinations.

Ferdinand · « **Reply #5 on:** May 30, 2016, 09:24:57 AM »

If the Liénart/Lefebvre ordinations are valid, the Thuc ordinations are most assuredly valid.

Regarding the NO rite... it is as invalid as the Anglican (see vindication of the bull).

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #6 on:** May 30, 2016, 03:06:56 PM »

Quote from: Ferdinand

If the Liénart/Lefebvre ordinations are valid, the Thuc ordinations are most assuredly valid.

Regarding the NO rite... it is as invalid as the Anglican (see vindication of the bull).

I was not familiar with the Liénart/Lefebvre ordinations issue. When you mentioned it, I looked it up here in a Google search: http://friarsminor.blogspot.com/2010/02/doubtful-validity-of-holy-orders.html

It appears that both Liénart/Lefebvre and Thuc ordinations are both in the same boat, there is reason for doubt in both, therefore, we are left with nowhere to go that is certain.

songbird · « **Reply #7 on:** May 30, 2016, 06:31:11 PM »

There are 2 separate Thuc lines. Bishop Guerard des Lauriers and Bishop Moises Carmona. Bishop Guerard des Lauriers had priests made in secret. Rome was immediately aware of them and intervened. This intervention on the part of Rome provided these consecrations with the notoriety which they formerly lacked.

Consecrations under Bishop Moises Carmona were different. Bishop Carmona publicly declared that the Holy See lacked a formaliter pope. Two fortunate things followed from this recognition of the absence of any authority. It allowed both consecrator and those consecrated to invoke the principle of epikeia. As a result the consecrations conferred were not only valid, but also licit.

curioustrad · « **Reply #8 on:** May 30, 2016, 09:06:00 PM »

Quote from: songbird

There are 2 separate Thuc lines. Bishop Guerard des Lauriers and Bishop Moises Carmona. Bishop Guerard des Lauriers had priests made in secret. Rome was immediately aware of them and intervened. This intervention on the part of Rome provided these consecrations with the notoriety which they formerly lacked.

Consecrations under Bishop Moises Carmona were different. Bishop Carmona publicly declared that the Holy See lacked a formaliter pope. Two fortunate things followed from this recognition of the absence of any authority. It allowed both consecrator and those consecrated to invoke the principle of epikeia. As a result the consecrations conferred were not only valid, but also licit.

I like the argument that because Rome pronounced excommunications this somehow lends credence to the validity of these orders. That's like saying a cleric who attempts matrimony is validly married because he is excommunicated - a canonical red herring believe you me !

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #9 on:** May 30, 2016, 09:24:25 PM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican

Quote from: curioustrad
Quote from: Last Tradhican
Quote from: qeddeq

Do you deny the Thuc line of Bishops? They are not true bishops and therefore the priests ordained by them are not true priests?

If priests turned green when they were validly ordained, then I would have no doubts about whether the Novus Ordo or Thuc line ordained were priest or not. Whether someone denies and another believes is of no matter, it definitively answers nothing.

I go where I have no doubts about the validity of the priest, I go to SSPX ordained priests. As long as I can find one, I do not have to confront the question of the validity of the Novus Ordo priests or the Thuc line and all the other sede lines. In the 1990's I had four different priests all ordained before 1965. Now I only have SSPX ordained.

Try starting with the pope needs the Faith and God does not abandon His Church the rest follows, but where the laity supplant the Pope's authority to judge these matters all Hell breaks loose and the Faith is in tatters.

You'll have to explain to me in more detail how that your recomendation ties into my response to the question of the validity Novus Ordo and Thuc line ordinations.

curioustrad????

Stubborn · « **Reply #10 on:** May 31, 2016, 07:40:57 AM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican

Quote from: Ferdinand
If the Liénart/Lefebvre ordinations are valid, the Thuc ordinations are most assuredly valid.

Regarding the NO rite... it is as invalid as the Anglican (see vindication of the bull).

I was not familiar with the Liénart/Lefebvre ordinations issue. When you mentioned it, I looked it up here in a Google search: http://friarsminor.blogspot.com/2010/02/doubtful-validity-of-holy-orders.html

It appears that both Liénart/Lefebvre and Thuc ordinations are both in the same boat, there is reason for doubt in both, therefore, we are left with nowhere to go that is certain.

+ABL was validly ordained and consecrated. Give +ABL a little credit here because if there was any doubt, +ABL himself would have been the very first to correct the situation by doing whatever needed to be done, even if it meant being conditionally or re-ordained/consecrated.

For what it's worth, here is a link from the SSPX on the matter.

qeddeq · « **Reply #11 on:** May 31, 2016, 09:25:57 PM »

Quote from: Ferdinand

If the Liénart/Lefebvre ordinations are valid, the Thuc ordinations are most assuredly valid.

Regarding the NO rite... it is as invalid as the Anglican (see vindication of the bull).

I concur.