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Author Topic: CI Discussion with Possible Implications for the Resistance  (Read 1231 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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CI Discussion with Possible Implications for the Resistance
« on: October 12, 2018, 09:42:17 AM »
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  • There is a thread in the Flat Earth subforum in which the OP claims that a resistance priest has written an article in support of flat earth.  It reproduces the article which takes the position that St. Thomas did not believe and teach that the earth is a sphere.

    I have no difficulty identifying the severe flaws in the article, but I am curious about the implications for the resistance if there is, in fact, a resistance priest who is a flat earther.  This aspect of the discussion exceeds my knowledge base, but there are many here who could offer informed opinions on the subject.  Since so few people regularly read the Flat Earth subforum, I wanted to ask this as a separate question.  Here is my post in the original thread, seeking input:  https://www.cathinfo.com/the-earth-god-made-flat-earth-geocentrism/flat-earth-priest-responds-to-tradidi-claims-over-st-thomas/msg630165/#msg630165

    I am not sure if Matthew would prefer us to discuss this as a continuation of the original thread or to discuss it here restricting it solely to the question of whether the resistance would be harmed by one of its priests identifying himself as a flat earther.  Perhaps he can offer some instruction.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: CI Discussion with Possible Implications for the Resistance
    « Reply #1 on: October 12, 2018, 10:02:11 AM »
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  • People nowadays are so used to "group think" that if one person in a movement has a differing view, then it clouds the entire group (this is just a communist tactic, based on emotion, which communists use to attack their opponents by pointing out "flaws" which aren't flaws but simply normal human disagreements in an organization.  On the contrary, when such disagreements arise in the communist party, they write it off as "his personal opinion".  Just another example of the double-standard which is inherent in communism and other deceitful movements).  

    This just isn't logical.  If you were in the army and able to be a 'fly on the wall' of some of the high-level tactical meetings, you'd hear all sorts of disagreements and major confrontations.  But once the meeting is done, the General makes the decision and that's what the "rest of the army" hears - the General's decision.  You could also say that's how the Church works (or is supposed to).  Both the military and the Church are effective because of a hierarchy and an efficient structure.

    In the case of the democratic process or a simple organization (especially volunteer ones), you'll never have the same level of hierarchy or obedience because the level of obedience required is lower than that of the military or the Church.  In the case of the Resistance, it's basically a volunteer organization of priests who decide to work together.  And, even if they took a vow to +Williamson, because the organization is in its infancy, the 'rules and regs' are probably minimal and not developed enough to address if or when a priest should comment on the topic of 'flat earth'.

    So, if one priest in the Resistance speaks about 'flat earth', I say "who cares?"  Does this priest speak for the entire Resistance?  No.  Does he mean to speak for the entire Resistance?  No.  Does his opinion change the scope or purpose of the Resistance?  No.

    So why does it matter what he thinks?  Why would the resistance be harmed?


    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: CI Discussion with Possible Implications for the Resistance
    « Reply #2 on: October 12, 2018, 10:10:53 AM »
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  • Yes Jayne is a Communist.

    Get ready for a flat earth Bishop soon everyone...
    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: CI Discussion with Possible Implications for the Resistance
    « Reply #3 on: October 12, 2018, 10:24:42 AM »
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  • Jayne isn't a communist, I'm simply saying we've all been brainwashed by communist logic and the communist media to easily criticize a group based on 1 member who has a differing view than the overall group.  I'm simply pointing out a logic flaw which we've all been conditioned to accept.  Not calling anyone names.

    Offline 1st Mansion Tenant

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    Re: CI Discussion with Possible Implications for the Resistance
    « Reply #4 on: October 12, 2018, 10:57:55 AM »
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  • People nowadays are so used to "group think" that if one person in a movement has a differing view, then it clouds the entire group (this is just a communist tactic, based on emotion, which communists use to attack their opponents by pointing out "flaws" which aren't flaws but simply normal human disagreements in an organization.  On the contrary, when such disagreements arise in the communist party, they write it off as "his personal opinion".  Just another example of the double-standard which is inherent in communism and other deceitful movements).  

    This just isn't logical.  If you were in the army and able to be a 'fly on the wall' of some of the high-level tactical meetings, you'd hear all sorts of disagreements and major confrontations.  But once the meeting is done, the General makes the decision and that's what the "rest of the army" hears - the General's decision.  You could also say that's how the Church works (or is supposed to).  Both the military and the Church are effective because of a hierarchy and an efficient structure.

    In the case of the democratic process or a simple organization (especially volunteer ones), you'll never have the same level of hierarchy or obedience because the level of obedience required is lower than that of the military or the Church.  In the case of the Resistance, it's basically a volunteer organization of priests who decide to work together.  And, even if they took a vow to +Williamson, because the organization is in its infancy, the 'rules and regs' are probably minimal and not developed enough to address if or when a priest should comment on the topic of 'flat earth'.

    So, if one priest in the Resistance speaks about 'flat earth', I say "who cares?"  Does this priest speak for the entire Resistance?  No.  Does he mean to speak for the entire Resistance?  No.  Does his opinion change the scope or purpose of the Resistance?  No.

    So why does it matter what he thinks?  Why would the resistance be harmed?
    Excellent response, Pax. 


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: CI Discussion with Possible Implications for the Resistance
    « Reply #5 on: October 12, 2018, 10:58:21 AM »
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  • So, if one priest in the Resistance speaks about 'flat earth', I say "who cares?"  Does this priest speak for the entire Resistance?  No.  Does he mean to speak for the entire Resistance?  No.  Does his opinion change the scope or purpose of the Resistance?  No.

    So why does it matter what he thinks?  Why would the resistance be harmed?
    I agree with you that, as far as logic goes, it should not matter.  But, as you say, this kind of illogical thinking is rampant.  People often behave in ways other than they should.  

    Based on what I know of human nature, if there is a resistance priest who is a flat earther, it would almost certainly be used in attacks by opponents of the resistance, no matter how illogical it was to do so.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: CI Discussion with Possible Implications for the Resistance
    « Reply #6 on: October 12, 2018, 11:17:38 AM »
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  • I actually had a conversation with a family member where I was chastizing the group, antifa, saying these people are maniacs and terrorists.  My relative argued that there are people who agree with antifa who don't do those things and that I was making a "false generalization".  I told them that I was talking about the people who riot, go to the meetings, and are ACTIVE members of the group.  Their response:  "Well, some people identify with antifa who aren't active members and they aren't extremist, therefore calling antifa an extremist group is wrong."   ...WHAT?!

    This goes to show the trickle-down errors of the gender-identity lies.  People nowadays seem to have bought into the lie that a woman can "identify" as a man, or a white person can "identify" as an african american.  They are so divorced from reality that they think that a person who sits on the couch and watches antifa on the news can "identify" as being a member of antifa, even though they've never visited their website, never been to a meeting and only know about antifa from what they hear/read in the news.  Wow.

    The mental state of our nation is incapacitated.  Only Our Lady can clear the cobwebs from these people's confused minds.  It's really scary.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: CI Discussion with Possible Implications for the Resistance
    « Reply #7 on: October 12, 2018, 11:33:01 AM »
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  • I have no difficulty identifying the severe flaws in the article, but I am curious about the implications for the resistance if there is, in fact, a resistance priest who is a flat earther.

    Well, last time I checked, flat earth hasn't been condemned by the Church as doctrinal error.  Let's say that a certain resistance priest were going around saying that 2+2 = 5.  What are the implications for the Resistance?  Let's assume that he's not insane, and just in error.  Except for possibly "making the resistance look bad", there are no implications.  But SSPX attacked Bishop Williamson precisely for making the Society "look bad" due to his position on the h0Ɩ0h0αx.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: CI Discussion with Possible Implications for the Resistance
    « Reply #8 on: October 12, 2018, 11:36:49 AM »
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  • Based on what I know of human nature, if there is a resistance priest who is a flat earther, it would almost certainly be used in attacks by opponents of the resistance, no matter how illogical it was to do so.

    And if a Resistance priest were going around promoting the notion that husbands could discipline their wives with corporal punishment?  Would that not also subject the Resistance to attacks?  How about if a Resistance priest says that 9/11 was an inside job?  Or that the h0Ɩ0cαųst was a fraud?  That's just such a slippery slope, and same one which led to +Williamson's ouster from the SSPX in the first place.  Unless it's a matter of faith or morals taught by or condemned by the Church, there should be complete freedom.  If you think one or another priest is a little nutty for holding a certain position, then you're free to stop associating with him.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: CI Discussion with Possible Implications for the Resistance
    « Reply #9 on: October 12, 2018, 12:01:18 PM »
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  • Quote
    If you think one or another priest is a little nutty for holding a certain position, then you're free to stop associating with him.
    Right.  But let everyone stop before they make such a decision and remind themselves that the mass is much more important than a priest's opinion on flat earth.  Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water...

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: CI Discussion with Possible Implications for the Resistance
    « Reply #10 on: October 12, 2018, 12:09:26 PM »
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  • Well, last time I checked, flat earth hasn't been condemned by the Church as doctrinal error.  Let's say that a certain resistance priest were going around saying that 2+2 = 5.  What are the implications for the Resistance?  Let's assume that he's not insane, and just in error.  Except for possibly "making the resistance look bad", there are no implications.  But SSPX attacked Bishop Williamson precisely for making the Society "look bad" due to his position on the h0Ɩ0h0αx.
    It is not simply the general "look bad" problem.  There appear to be flat earthers who attempt to portray spherical earth as the Pfeifferite position while flat earth is the position associated with +Williamson supporters.  If a +Williamson supporting priest  were a flat earther, it would give them more ammunition to portray this irrelevant detail as an important difference between the groups.

    If I came across something like that, without being aware of the actual situation, it would strongly prejudice me in favour of Pfeifferites.  I have, in fact, come across videos by Fr. Pfeiffer in which he defends spherical earth.  These left a positive impression on me. If it were not for reading Cathinfo, that would be all I know about him.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: CI Discussion with Possible Implications for the Resistance
    « Reply #11 on: October 12, 2018, 12:54:48 PM »
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  • Yes Jayne is a Communist.
    I am not sure if I actually need to deny such an obvious baseless slur, but for the record:
    I spent some months living in Lithuania in the early 1990s shortly after it gained independence from the USSR.  (My husband is of Lithuanian descent.)  I personally witnessed the material and spiritual devastation left by Soviet rule.  I have had a strong visceral revulsion to Communism ever since then, in addition to the intellectual knowledge of its defects that any well-informed person would have.  It would be difficult to be more opposed to Communism than I am.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: CI Discussion with Possible Implications for the Resistance
    « Reply #12 on: October 12, 2018, 02:33:45 PM »
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  • There appear to be flat earthers who attempt to portray spherical earth as the Pfeifferite position while flat earth is the position associated with +Williamson supporters.
    Oh yeah? Well I think it's all about Coke vs. Pepsi.  Pfeifferites go with Coke, and the rest of the Resistance prefers Pepsi. I think that's what the whole disagreement boils down to.
    (Yes I'm being sarcastic.)
    You can "attempt to portray" anything you want. Being an accurate reflection of reality is another matter.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: CI Discussion with Possible Implications for the Resistance
    « Reply #13 on: October 12, 2018, 02:37:10 PM »
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  • People nowadays are so used to "group think" that if one person in a movement has a differing view, then it clouds the entire group (this is just a communist tactic, based on emotion, which communists use to attack their opponents by pointing out "flaws" which aren't flaws but simply normal human disagreements in an organization.  On the contrary, when such disagreements arise in the communist party, they write it off as "his personal opinion".  Just another example of the double-standard which is inherent in communism and other deceitful movements).  

    This just isn't logical.  If you were in the army and able to be a 'fly on the wall' of some of the high-level tactical meetings, you'd hear all sorts of disagreements and major confrontations.  But once the meeting is done, the General makes the decision and that's what the "rest of the army" hears - the General's decision.  You could also say that's how the Church works (or is supposed to).  Both the military and the Church are effective because of a hierarchy and an efficient structure.

    In the case of the democratic process or a simple organization (especially volunteer ones), you'll never have the same level of hierarchy or obedience because the level of obedience required is lower than that of the military or the Church.  In the case of the Resistance, it's basically a volunteer organization of priests who decide to work together.  And, even if they took a vow to +Williamson, because the organization is in its infancy, the 'rules and regs' are probably minimal and not developed enough to address if or when a priest should comment on the topic of 'flat earth'.

    So, if one priest in the Resistance speaks about 'flat earth', I say "who cares?"  Does this priest speak for the entire Resistance?  No.  Does he mean to speak for the entire Resistance?  No.  Does his opinion change the scope or purpose of the Resistance?  No.

    So why does it matter what he thinks?  Why would the resistance be harmed?
    I'm going to go ahead and let Pax Vobis speak for me here.
    And then I'm going to lock the thread, since there's nothing more really to be said.
    The solid answer is, "No, it wouldn't harm the Resistance as a whole even if he were pro-flat earth"
    Priests each have individual opinions on everything -- everything that is open to opinion, that is. Now if you want to bring forward some actual heresy believed by this or that priest, I'd be happy to steer clear of that priest. Better get the word out.
    But if your only complaint is "free speech! waaah!" then I'm not sympathetic at all. "In dubiis libertas".
    And that category of dubiis (doubtful things) includes every secular topic there is, which the Church hasn't explicitly ruled on.

    The "necessary things", on which we must have "unity", only include dogmas of the Faith and infallible pronouncements from the Popes. Now on debated points of theology, one shouldn't be completely rash (to dismiss a majority opinion, for example) but it still doesn't make one a heretic if you go with the minority opinion.

    As for historical events, scientific matters -- go ahead and form whatever opinion you want. Popular or unpopular, likely or unlikely, you are completely free. It's not the concern of the Church.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: CI Discussion with Possible Implications for the Resistance
    « Reply #14 on: October 12, 2018, 02:37:45 PM »
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  • Beyond that, if you want to discuss Flat Earth, go discuss it in the appointed place.

    I'm locking the thread.
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