Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Chrismal Mass  (Read 3752 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Matthew

  • Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 31176
  • Reputation: +27093/-494
  • Gender: Male
Chrismal Mass
« on: March 02, 2017, 11:23:46 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Does anyone have expertise on this Mass?

    It takes place on Holy Thursday morning sometime after 9:00 AM (Terce), and is quite rare because it requires a bishop. During this Mass, the bishop consecrates the holy oils, including Holy Chrism and the Oil of the Catechumens.

    I will be helping with the Gregorian Chant for this Mass in 5 weeks. The Celebrant will be Bishop Williamson. The locale is "Stella Maris Chapel" outside Houston, TX.

    I haven't attended a Chrismal Mass since I was at the seminary, and the latest year for that was 2003 -- so it's hard to remember all the fine details.

    I remember singing "Crux Fidelis/Pange Lingua Gloriosi" or some similar beautiful chant melody during the procession. However, there is nothing about the music used during the procession in the Liber Usualis. The Liber only has the propers for that Mass, and suggests Kyrie IV.

    And I definitely remember the veneration of the Chrism, where each priest intones "Ave Sanctum Chrisma" (which is done by each priest in attendance  -- and on this note, the more the merrier).

    But the words "Ave Sanctum Chrisma" don't even appear in the Liber Usualis. Therefore, I am concluding that the whole ceremony is not in the Liber. Perhaps it's in the Holy Week ritual or something.

    Besides the Liber Usualis, I also have access to a 1962 Missale Romanum.

    Any help?

    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com


    Offline StonewallCatho

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 79
    • Reputation: +256/-8
    • Gender: Male
    Chrismal Mass
    « Reply #1 on: March 02, 2017, 11:48:23 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Dear Matthew,

    if you google "Pontifical Chrismal Mass traditional' you will find many websites with lots of information.


    Offline AMDGJMJ

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2692
    • Reputation: +1544/-64
    • Gender: Female
    Chrismal Mass
    « Reply #2 on: March 03, 2017, 08:22:21 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Matthew
    Does anyone have expertise on this Mass?

    It takes place on Holy Thursday morning sometime after 9:00 AM (Terce), and is quite rare because it requires a bishop. During this Mass, the bishop consecrates the holy oils, including Holy Chrism and the Oil of the Catechumens.

    I will be helping with the Gregorian Chant for this Mass in 5 weeks. The Celebrant will be Bishop Williamson. The locale is "Stella Maris Chapel" outside Houston, TX.

    I haven't attended a Chrismal Mass since I was at the seminary, and the latest year for that was 2003 -- so it's hard to remember all the fine details.

    I remember singing "Crux Fidelis/Pange Lingua Gloriosi" or some similar beautiful chant melody during the procession. However, there is nothing about the music used during the procession in the Liber Usualis. The Liber only has the propers for that Mass, and suggests Kyrie IV.

    And I definitely remember the veneration of the Chrism, where each priest intones "Ave Sanctum Chrisma" (which is done by each priest in attendance  -- and on this note, the more the merrier).

    But the words "Ave Sanctum Chrisma" don't even appear in the Liber Usualis. Therefore, I am concluding that the whole ceremony is not in the Liber. Perhaps it's in the Holy Week ritual or something.

    Besides the Liber Usualis, I also have access to a 1962 Missale Romanum.

    Any help?



    Are you having a bishop do this ceremony at your chapel?

    It is possible that this was abolished with the Old Holy Week Services...

    A good person to ask would be a traditional Catholic priest who still uses the Pre-58 Missals.  :-)

    I am grateful to have been able to go to the Old Holy Week Services for the past 3 years...

    Some of the priests whom I know by name who use the older Missal are:

    Father Ringrose
    Father McMahon
    Father Joseph Collins
    Father Ahern

    Hope this helps!
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/

    Offline AndrewRivera

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 1
    • Reputation: +12/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Chrismal Mass
    « Reply #3 on: March 03, 2017, 05:47:09 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • The ritual of Oils and Chrism is not in the OHS (which was incorporated wholesale into the 1960 Missale anyhow), but in the Pontificale.  Though an older version (1845) is cited below, the rite hasn't changed much at all in recent centuries, besides its being bundled within a "Mass of the Holy Chrism" as part of the Pius XII reforms.  In any case, the below is a good start for research, since it includes Chant (though after the Typical Vatican manner, Solesmes-esque ictal markings are not present).

    Take a look at page 45 and onwards (numbered as pp.605ff.): https://books.google.ca/books/reader?id=Q9YHAAAAQAAJ

    Pax

    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1218/-4688
    • Gender: Male
    Chrismal Mass
    « Reply #4 on: March 06, 2017, 02:19:03 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • I recommend that if worse comes to worse you do what Mgr. Willimason tells you to do since he is the celebrant.
    Remember "Obedience before sacrifice."


    Offline AlligatorDicax

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 908
    • Reputation: +372/-173
    • Gender: Male
    Chrismal Mass
    « Reply #5 on: March 07, 2017, 02:16:11 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Owner Matthew (Mar 2, 2017, 12:23 pm)
    [SSPX Resistance News] Chrismal Mass

    Does anyone have expertise on this Mass?   It takes place on Holy Thursday morning sometime after 9:00 AM (Terce), and is quite rare because it requires a bishop.  During this Mass, the bishop consecrates the holy oils, including Holy Chrism and the Oil of the Catechumens.  I will be helping with the Gregorian Chant for this Mass in 5 weeks. The Celebrant will be Bishop Williamson. The locale is "Stella Maris Chapel" outside Houston, TX. [....]  Perhaps it's in the Holy Week ritual or something.

    Quote from: AndrewRivera (posting 1 of 1: Mar 3, 2017, 6:47 pm)
    The ritual of Oils and Chrism is not in the OHS (which was incorporated wholesale into the 1960 Missale [Romanum] anyhow),

    Officium Hebdomadae Sacrae  or somesuch?

    Quote from: AndrewRivera (posting 1 of 1: Mar 3, 2017, 6:47 pm)
    [...]  but in the Pontificale [Romanum].  Though an older version (1845) is cited below, the rite hasn't changed much at all in recent centuries, besides its being bundled within a "Mass of the Holy Chrism" as part of the Pius XII reforms.

    Thanks; I hope it helps.  Indeed, I do see:

    Quote from: Pontificale Romanum (1845) via Oxford U.
    DE OFFICIO IN FERIA QUINTA COENÆ
    • [/color] DOMINI[/b]
      cuм BENEDICITUR OLEUM CATECHUMENORUM, ET INFIRMORUM, ET CONFICITUR CHRISMA.[/i]
    Quote from: AlligatorDicax (own translation)
    ON THE OFFICE ON THURSDAY OF THE DINNER
    • [/color] OF THE LORD
      (AT A TIME) WHEN THE OIL OF THE CATECHUMENS, AND OF THE SICK, IS BLESSED, AND THE CHRISM IS MADE UP.
    I have no idea how many pages the subject section spans, because <books.google.*/books/reader> is typically overly effective at kicking the responsiveness of  my Internet-access PC into the weeds.

    I confess having no useful knowledge to contribute on chant or choral music (altho' I might avoid being the most off-key person present if I dare to add my voice to "Pange Lingua").

    Quote from: poche (Mar 6, 2017, 3:19 am)
    I recommend that if worse comes to worse[sic] you do what Mgr. Willimason[sic] tells you to do since he is the celebrant.  Remember "Obedience before sacrifice."

    Ah, yes.  A CathInfo topic that arguably wouldn't be complete without a platitude posted by poche, further bloating his postings-count
    • .


    But from my involvement, a few years ago, with a different ritual that requires a bishop, I'm assuming that Matthew's goal is to assemble or produce docuмents for the more-or-less local participants in that Chrismal Mass, for practical purposes, before they can rely on having Bp. Williamson present to provide detailed guidance.  Docuмents, e.g.:
    · for participants, to conduct whatever rehearsal(s) might be appropriate;
    · for its congregation, to follow the "quite rare" Mass; and
    · for an evaluation of whether, after distributing the assembled docuмents, various clerical & lay leaders of the Resistance ought to allow them to be kept as gifts by honored participants and members of the congregation, or retrieved to assemble a printed archive for "quite rare" Masses, rituals, or ceremonies, to make them available as needed by clerical & lay leaders of the Resistance.

    -------
    Note *: Classical Latin "c&#275;na, -ae" (f.), meaning the main meal of the Romans, eaten in midafternoon[**].  But in the Vulgate, the noun appears twice in Jn. 13 (:2&4)<!-- http://drbo.org/drl/chapter/50013.htm --> as "coena" (unquantified but certainly ablative).  A dictionary of ecclesiastical or medi&aelig;val Latin might reveal more about the nonclassical inserted "o".  Perhaps being from the classical verb "co&#235;o, -&#299;re", applying its compatible meaning "to come together or assemble", but consult your local formally trained classicist.  The on-line Lewis&Short insists "c&#275;na--not coena, caena; old form caesna"[**].

    Note **: &#60;http://logeion.uchicago.edu/index.html#cena&#62; vs. &#60;http://logeion.uchicago.edu/index.html#coena&#62;.

    Note #: Having reached 10,769 postings in C.I. to date, poche has more than 1/2 as&#160;many as the forum's owner-moderator-webmaster (20,080).  Or more than 22&#160;times as many as I&#160;do, despite my having created my account 5&#160;days earlier than the platitudinous Novus Ordo&#239;te arrived, both back in mid 2012.

    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1218/-4688
    • Gender: Male
    Chrismal Mass
    « Reply #6 on: March 08, 2017, 12:11:54 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • But from my involvement, a few years ago, with a different ritual that requires a bishop, I'm assuming that Matthew's goal is to assemble or produce docuмents for the more-or-less local participants in that Chrismal Mass, for practical purposes, before they can rely on having Bp. Williamson present to provide detailed guidance.  Docuмents, e.g.:
    · for participants, to conduct whatever rehearsal(s) might be appropriate;
    · for its congregation, to follow the "quite rare" Mass; and
    · for an evaluation of whether, after distributing the assembled docuмents, various clerical & lay leaders of the Resistance ought to allow them to be kept as gifts by honored participants and members of the congregation, or retrieved to assemble a printed archive for "quite rare" Masses, rituals, or ceremonies, to make them available as needed by clerical & lay leaders of the Resistance.

    One of the purposes of the Chrismal mass is the the blessing of the holy oils to be used during the year when there is a need for the priest to give extreme unction. This is not just "gifts" to be kept by just anybody. It is for the priests to be used baptisms, confirmations, and the last rites.

    Offline AlligatorDicax

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 908
    • Reputation: +372/-173
    • Gender: Male
    Chrismal Mass
    « Reply #7 on: March 08, 2017, 02:30:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: poche (Mar 08, 2017, 1:11 am, failing to quote AlligatorDicax) appeared to have
    But from my involvement, a few years ago, with a different ritual that requires a bishop, I'm assuming that Matthew's&#160;goal is to assemble or produce docuмents for the more-or-less local participants in that Chrismal Mass, for practical purposes, before they can rely on having Bp.&#160;Williamson present to provide detailed guidance.

    The words that I quoted above are not actually words originally written by poche, contrary to what a reasonable reader might assume on returning to CathInfo after days of absence, and seeing them without quoting in the immediately previous posting by poche.  Instead, they are the words of AlligatorDicax from his previous posting in this same topic (Mar 07, 2017, 3:16 pm), so the first-person pronouns refer to A.D.

    There's no just excuse for a person with more than 10,000 postings on C.I. to fail to use the C.I. quoting feature whenever any 1&#160;member (e.g., poche) posts words written by any other member (e.g., AlligatorDicax), whether for criticism, praise, or ridicule.

    Now back to the topic:

    Quote from: poche (Mar 08, 2017, 1:11 am, failing to quote AlligatorDicax) appeared to have
    But&#160; Docuмents, e.g.:&#160; [....] &#183;&#160;for an evaluation of whether, after distributing the assembled docuмents, various clerical & lay leaders of the Resistance ought to allow them to be kept as gifts by honored participants and members of the congregation, or [to be] retrieved to assemble a printed archive for "quite rare" Masses, rituals, or ceremonies, to make them available as needed by clerical & lay leaders of the Resistance.

    I had not considered a bulleted list too advanced a form of presentation for C.I. readers, but it obviously confused poche.  So immediately above, I&#160;edited out the first&#160;2 bullets, leaving only&#160;1, producing a single sentence&#16;
    • .
    Quote from: poche (Mar 08, 2017, 1:11 am) himself
    One of the purposes of the Chrismal [sic]mass is the the blessing of the holy oils to be used during the year when there is a need for the priest to give extreme unction.

    Of course, that's "one"--but not all--of the Church's uses for those oils.  I'm well aware of, and thus not debating, the purpose of that Mass.  Plus the readers who were not aware of the oils' purposes when they loaded this topic would already have been educated by Matthew's summary in his original posting:

    Quote from: Owner Matthew (Mar 2, 2017, 12:23 pm)
    [....] this [Chrismal] Mass?&#160; It takes place on Holy Thursday [....]&#160; and is quite rare [....]&#160; During this Mass, the bishop consecrates the holy oils, including Holy Chrism and the Oil of the Catechumens.

    In completing his final paragraph, poche shows that, despite presumably having native literacy in English, he needs to give additional attention in C.I. to his reading comprehension (even if that additional attention reduces the daily rate at which he inflates his C.I. postings count):

    Quote from: poche (Mar 08, 2017, 1:11 am) himself
    This is not just "gifts" to be kept by just anybody.&#160; It is for the priests to be used [in] baptisms, confirmations, and the last rites.

    Readers should now realize, from my quote as I&#160;edited it in blue above, that my 2&#160;uses of the pronoun them refer to "Docuмents"--not "holy oils"--as what might be allowed to be "kept as gifts".

    As Matthew wrote when creating this topic, the Mass is "quite rare",&#160; so consider (here's some practice with a bulleted list for extra credit):
    &#183;&#160;the stature of Bp.&#160;Williamson as the senior bishop providing sacraments to the Resistance;
    &#183;&#160;his advancing age; and
    &#183;&#160;the possibility that such a Mass won't soon return to that Resistance site (e.g., being celebrated instead at different Resistance sites over several years, in recognition of financial support, &c.).

    Then consider that the docuмents specific to that Mass might have at least sentimental appeal as gifts or mementos of that occasion for Bp.&#160;Williamson's visit.  However, depending on the costs of printing, a frugal clerical or lay leader in the Resistance might sensibly decide that they cost too much to produce to allow most of them to be used only once, then taken home as mementos by the congregation.

    -------
    Note #: A sentence admittedly complicated by opening with a gerund phrase and containing clauses combined via co&#246;rdinating conjunctions, but some of my blood is German.


    Offline Introibo

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 4
    • Reputation: +10/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Chrismal Mass
    « Reply #8 on: April 11, 2017, 12:29:19 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0


  • Are you having a bishop do this ceremony at your chapel?

    It is possible that this was abolished with the Old Holy Week Services...

    A good person to ask would be a traditional Catholic priest who still uses the Pre-58 Missals.  :-)

    I am grateful to have been able to go to the Old Holy Week Services for the past 3 years...

    Some of the priests whom I know by name who use the older Missal are:

    Father Ringrose
    Father McMahon
    Father Joseph Collins
    Father Ahern

    Hope this helps!
    It is not true that the Mass of the Chrism was abolished by the "Reform of the Holy Week" under Pope Pius XII, which resulted in the "Restored Ordo for Holy Week" published in November 1955 and taking effect from March 25, 1956. "The Blessing of the Holy Oils" can be found under Maundy Thursday in my 1945 (St. Andrews) and 1962 (Angelus Press; Baronius Press) daily missals. Even the the Novus Ordo retains the Chrism Mass.

    As AndrewRivera has mentioned the full ceremonial of the blessing of the holy oils is in the Pontificale Romanum.

    Offline Introibo

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 4
    • Reputation: +10/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Chrismal Mass
    « Reply #9 on: April 11, 2017, 12:50:47 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Does anyone have expertise on this Mass?
    Matthew,

    You may want to contact Louis Tofari of the Romanitas Press. I am sure he will be able to offer some help.
    http://www.romanitaspress.com/contact

    Online Kazimierz

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7386
    • Reputation: +3485/-87
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Chrismal Mass
    « Reply #10 on: April 12, 2017, 12:56:19 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This Mass is in the Liber Usualis version 801 post perfidious edition. Thus says my Liber Pro app. Also it exists in the perfidious GF version, which is my hardcover text.
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster


    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 31176
    • Reputation: +27093/-494
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Chrismal Mass
    « Reply #11 on: April 18, 2017, 07:07:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Here is the ceremony:


    Sermon from the Chrismal Mass:


    More video from the Chrismal Mass at Stella Maris Chapel, 4/13/17:







    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com