Are there any reliable statistics on the numbers of children raised in tradition who leave the Faith upon reaching adulthood? Ages 18, 21, moving out of parents’ home, or moving away to an area without ready access to TLM?
From what I’ve observed personally, it seems the large majority lose the faith and become “not religious.”
Are there any reliable statistics on the numbers of children raised in tradition who leave the Faith upon reaching adulthood? Ages 18, 21, moving out of parents’ home, or moving away to an area without ready access to TLM?The SSPX have an article on this subject, along with the various factors that influenced it(devoutness of the father, whether parents stayed together, membership of a religious youth group, etc.). I'll see if I can dig it up.
From what I’ve observed personally, it seems the large majority lose the faith and become “not religious.”
Are there any reliable statistics on the numbers of children raised in tradition who leave the Faith upon reaching adulthood? Ages 18, 21, moving out of parents’ home, or moving away to an area without ready access to TLM?
From what I’ve observed personally, it seems the large majority lose the faith and become “not religious.”
The SSPX have an article on this subject, along with the various factors that influenced it(devoutness of the father, whether parents stayed together, membership of a religious youth group, etc.). I'll see if I can dig it up.I can't find it at all. Anyone else have any idea?
This has happened to my family. The most effective apologists of the Faith left the Church for no religion and no God. The grief my family has expressed reminds me of the sword that pierced the heart of Mary. No one seems safe. It's truly unbelievable.Sts. Peter and Paul were the most effective apologists of the Faith, yet St. John the Baptist is the greatest man that has ever lived (per the words of Christ).
This has happened to my family. The most effective apologists of the Faith left the Church for no religion and no God. The grief my family has expressed reminds me of the sword that pierced the heart of Mary. No one seems safe. It's truly unbelievable.
This has happened to my family. The most effective apologists of the Faith left the Church for no religion and no God. The grief my family has expressed reminds me of the sword that pierced the heart of Mary. No one seems safe. It's truly unbelievable.Yes, it is very sad. Just know that the same afflictions befall the brethren all over the world. 1 Peter 5:9
Regarding females, they're a disgrace.I’ve had the same problem, some people on the forum are somewhat vindictive.
Most of them embarrass me.
Satan has done his job well in this world.
EDIT:
I just noticed my negative votes have risen overnight.
Will the not so mature individual who is doing that get a grip? I've posted nothing controversial lately. Whoever is doing that must be reaching back in time.
I’ve had the same problem, some people on the forum are somewhat vindictive.So I've noticed.
Regarding females, they're a disgrace.Strange to say, I agree. I AM female, but have always preferred to have a discussion with men, so long as it’s clear there is nothing else involved. Most women are catty, vindictive, air-headed, lovers of gossip, backbiters of the worst kind.
Most of them embarrass me.
Satan has done his job well in this world.
EDIT:
I just noticed my negative votes have risen overnight.
Will the not so mature individual who is doing that get a grip? I've posted nothing controversial lately. Whoever is doing that must be reaching back in time.
Strange to say, I agree. I AM female, but have always preferred to have a discussion with men, so long as it’s clear there is nothing else involved. Most women are catty, vindictive, air-headed, lovers of gossip, backbiters of the worst kind.
I don’t much care about what Mrs. So-and-So said to Mrs. Blab Blab about the way her daughter-in-law dresses the kids. I’m not impressed with the price of your new kitchen, your home, car, swimming pool, or wardrobe. If Mrs. Noodle’s husband is cheating on her, it’s sad, but I don’t want to know about it. I certainly don’t want to hear you run down the priest—-or brag on him as if he’s the latest teen heart throb and you’re inviting him to your 13th birthday party next week.
Feminist types are even worse. I do not want to hear about how the men at your office jump when you give orders, or your raise, or hear you run down full-time homemakers, brag about your children’s academic prowess in the pre-school. I don’t want to hear your put-downs about your husband or men simply because they are male.
Sorry, ladies, unless you ARE age 13 or thereabouts!
I’m sure I’ll get lots of down votes from both sexes.
That being said, I’ve still seen few answers regarding the loss of cradle trads to the world. Sure, we can say, “Oh, it’s the state of the world! Too strong for even the best!” I don’t buy that.
There are peoples who pass down their out of step, out of mainstream religions and cultures to most of their offspring. Amish, (those tv shows are fake), Jєωs, Muslims, Sikhs, Indians, to some extent, Russian and Greek rite Catholics. What do they do that we don’t?
Strange to say, I agree. I AM female, but have always preferred to have a discussion with men, so long as it’s clear there is nothing else involved. Most women are catty, vindictive, air-headed, lovers of gossip, backbiters of the worst kind.The Amish live in their own communities completely separated from the rest of the world. If Trad Catholics all moved to the middle of nowhere and founded our own little towns, we'd have the same success. It's not very practical however.
I don’t much care about what Mrs. So-and-So said to Mrs. Blab Blab about the way her daughter-in-law dresses the kids. I’m not impressed with the price of your new kitchen, your home, car, swimming pool, or wardrobe. If Mrs. Noodle’s husband is cheating on her, it’s sad, but I don’t want to know about it. I certainly don’t want to hear you run down the priest—-or brag on him as if he’s the latest teen heart throb and you’re inviting him to your 13th birthday party next week.
Feminist types are even worse. I do not want to hear about how the men at your office jump when you give orders, or your raise, or hear you run down full-time homemakers, brag about your children’s academic prowess in the pre-school. I don’t want to hear your put-downs about your husband or men simply because they are male.
Sorry, ladies, unless you ARE age 13 or thereabouts!
I’m sure I’ll get lots of down votes from both sexes.
That being said, I’ve still seen few answers regarding the loss of cradle trads to the world. Sure, we can say, “Oh, it’s the state of the world! Too strong for even the best!” I don’t buy that.
There are peoples who pass down their out of step, out of mainstream religions and cultures to most of their offspring. Amish, (those tv shows are fake), Jєωs, Muslims, Sikhs, Indians, to some extent, Russian and Greek rite Catholics. What do they do that we don’t?
I came from the world and was caught up in it for well over half my life, I am very familiar with all of the tricks of the world. The only one parents that were totally successful and what I would model my actions from, had 11 children and all grown up and with children of their own, in other words they are grandparents. I who am VERY experienced in the tricks of the world, thank God that he put that family in front of me all of these years, so I had a living example to remind me that I was correct in my actions.
There are many reasons why people fail with the passing on the faith to the children:
#1 - Overall, they do not have set goals as to what they want their children to be, nor do they think of how to accomplish it, nor do they look for examples to emulate and consult.
They entrust it to a school, priest, catechism teachers
They do not live the faith themselves, it is just the "beautiful Latin Mass" on Sundays
They do not pay much attention to the children
They let their girls ALONE to play with boys, flirt with boys, talk to boys, be alone with boys on "dates". Boys, boys, boys becomes their daughters total occupation.
They let the children watch TV, movies, news, internet, all unsupervised
Others can fill in...…………………...
What I do have are MANY real world examples of what parents should NOT do, gathered from the parents I have known all of these years, some made a few mistakes, others swallowed camels!!
... or, they do none of these things and the children still leave (I've seen it). At the end of the day, there's this mysterious thing called free will. Judas could not have received a better formation and a better environment in which to thrive.Judas was only one of twelve. I would call that a success.
Actually, I learned that you cannot keep thumbing up or down beyond a fixed limit. I think it's 1 in 5.
Oops! I've just noticed Matthew has explained it above.
I was talking to a 28-year-old man who grew up attending an SSPX primary school."The world the flesh are strong, and Satan spreads a thousand snares to lead them into wrong".
He was away from the faith for ten years or so, but has recently returned. He said that from his class of twenty-five, he believes he is the only one practicing the Faith today, and he has only just returned.
I know very few people who grew up in Tradition who still practice. An horrendous retention rate. Kyrie eleison.
I was talking to a 28-year-old man who grew up attending an SSPX primary school.That is pretty shocking. I would've thought those figures made sense for a normal school, but to have it be that bad even for an SSPX school means the issue is much worse than I thought.
He was away from the faith for ten years or so, but has recently returned. He said that from his class of twenty-five, he believes he is the only one practicing the Faith today, and he has only just returned.
I know very few people who grew up in Tradition who still practice. An horrendous retention rate. Kyrie eleison.
"The world the flesh are strong, and Satan spreads a thousand snares to lead them into wrong".
That is pretty shocking. I would've thought those figures made sense for a normal school, but to have it be that bad even for an SSPX school means the issue is much worse than I thought.A business with this track record wouldn’t last long! Would you go to a doctor if the majority of his initially healthy patients relapsed and died? Or cross a new bridge designed by an architect whose past bridges collapsed?
I was talking to a 28-year-old man who grew up attending an SSPX primary school.
He was away from the faith for ten years or so, but has recently returned. He said that from his class of twenty-five, he believes he is the only one practicing the Faith today, and he has only just returned.
I know very few people who grew up in Tradition who still practice. An horrendous retention rate. Kyrie eleison.
Moreover that's only 1 school, what about other SSPX schools? There are so many factors, perhaps the factors that influenced that school were not present in other schools.I don't think anyone has reliable statistics so one has to go by what they see and hear. And what I see and hear is that the % of Trads who fall away from their faith after highschool is of epidemic proportions, compared to 20 years ago. Even when listening to Protestant radio, where children were brought up with good, natural law morals, they are shocked and scared at the number of kids who are rejecting religion outright, in their early 20s.
I was talking to a 28-year-old man who grew up attending an SSPX primary school.At least in my experience it has a lot to do with the culture. I've seen a lot of parents that when the kids reach the highschool years, they no longer take care of them because "they are old enough to take care of themselves" when in reality as children start to enter the real world, parents should be closer emotionally speaking to guide them and prepare them for the battle. Many trad kids grow inside a crystal ball and when exposed to the world as adults it's all a surprise and get easily caught in it. Other parents with many kids throw to the older ones the entire responsibilty of taking care of the younger ones, so they are eager to leave home as soon as they're 18. Being a good parent is not only provide for the physical needs of the children. Many parents fail on preparing their children to face the world. Teens are very vulnerable and that's when they need us the most.
He was away from the faith for ten years or so, but has recently returned. He said that from his class of twenty-five, he believes he is the only one practicing the Faith today, and he has only just returned.
I know very few people who grew up in Tradition who still practice. An horrendous retention rate. Kyrie eleison.
That's terrible.From what I am seeing, in my part of the world, it's mainly the girls who fall out the quickest. Among my friends and former fellow parishioners, boys hang on better and are more pius and there is a much smaller attrition rate with them. The girls who have not fallen away (yet) are most probably on their way there, if not already so secretly.
But we should look at reliable statistics before making conclusions. Personal observations or estimations can be misleading.
Moreover that's only 1 school, what about other SSPX schools? There are so many factors, perhaps the factors that influenced that school were not present in other schools.
I don't believe children raised in tradition easily lose their faith, that might be due to other factors.
Maybe you should check out their face book pages or instagrams to learn why they leave the faith. Some have become worldly. Saw Facebook page of one young trad woman where they were hanging out at bar drinking. There are ones young trad girls wearing slacks and pants like the baby boomers with veils and some without veils.^^ This! ^^
I see things that go on that shouldn’t go on my with my own nieces. I can see their Instagram pictures and texts. My parents wont listen. My sister (novus ordo who is living like an atheist) is the problem. I see this. She is her worst enemy. My parents enable.
If the women are home and men working, then it must be mothers that aren’t doing what they should be doing. I was upset when many trad moms wanted Montessori method for homeschool group. I think it is messed up for a woman to stop home schooling to put children in public school during teen years claiming lack of money but has money and time for expensive concerts and girls night out at restaurant bars. Then there moms who are fanatics. They do everything for church while neglecting their husbands and children. Maybe being a show off and attending two hour high Mass or an adult conference is too much for children. Because many children are running around and don’t want to there. They later rebel and reject the faith.
( also, don’t forget the children who have been sɛҳuąƖly abused or harassed and have left the faith. Many of those sɛҳuąƖly abused or harassed in the seminaries have left the faith too.). Sedevacantists are not problem. The “uniting of the clans”should include sedevacantists.
We should spend approximately 1000X as many hours thinking, researching, and discussing this problem than we spend on "becoming experts on the Crisis in the Church", including the Pope question. If everyone followed my advice, there would be a lot less apostate children because parents would spend time learning about the world, parenting, psychology, getting to know their children and spending time with them, educating them about the world, etc. instead of arguing online about the status of the Pope.Spot on, Matthew!
So true, Seraphina.True. The cardinals are more analogous to the president’s cabinet. I hold to my analogy even if flawed. Children and teens, especially want and NEED a cause they perceive worth dying for. If all they’ve seen is a lovely high Mass, heard the Rosary beautifully prayed, gone on a few Catholic summer camps, pilgrimages, and a teen retreat...and the rest of the time spent shielded from reality, well-provided for, never wanting for life’s basic needs, that is the life they’ll live as adults, only they’ll drop the religious part, the part that calls for sacrifice when true sacrifice is mere lip-service.
One thing though is wrong: that bishops are under obedience to a cardinal. A cardinal is merely a bishop who gets to elect the pope. He has no authority over a bishop. Bishop is directly under the pope, as is the cardinal.
Most children who enter religious life are hard-workers. They help out their families. Many didn’t play sports, computers, dance classes, youth groups or go to camp. These young people stayed home with their families to socialize. They took pilgrimages and other trips with their families only. Many of these families read the Bible and prayed the rosary every night after dinner. They went to low Mass and came home.Many of these "Catholic" schools have taken the Cross from the school wall and have replaced it with a clock.
Then came Vatican II..and hippy junk. Free love..and women working outside home. Grand parents moved away from families to retire. Priests molesting children. Catholic families couldn’t afford Catholic school. It seemed Jєωιѕн and rich Protestant children could afford it while Catholic children had to go to CCD.
Nowadays, Moslems go to Catholic schools and have special prayer rooms.
I was seeing traditional Catholics including youth living double lives on face book which is disappointing. I unfriended many and am off of face book temporarily.Wise move, Viva.
At my sspx church you have two types of families, ones who send their children to the school and ones who don't.Ditto at my chapel.
There are around 4 families who don't at the moment, almost all of them have true mary like modesty, the husbands wear suits at mass (except one), and their children are better behaved and seem smarter.
Then there are dozens of families who sends or sent their children to the school and almost zero are modest at all, I have heard their children talk about video games and movies etc. And most of the older parents whose children are out of school only have one or two children at mass... now lets say for example one had 10 kids who are grown, 2 are at the church, one is a priest, where are the other 7? Did they all move to other cities? One family I know well had 4 kids at the school, 1 is no longer catholic, one dresses like a hippy and doesn't go to mass regularly, and one thinks he is gαy and doesn't go to mass. So from what I have seen I could totally see 40-80% of children educated at sspx schools leaving the faith.
The factors I think that cause this is the crises in the church is not taught well at all, the novus ordo church is not taught as evil, but as a little brother in need of help, you have mostly women in their early 20s teaching who are not well educated or smart while the pastor only teaches religion class, the evils of the outside world are not stressed nearly as much as they need to be, the parents send them to the school because they themselves are not super strident catholics 7 days a week and they don't teach there children anything extra because they think the school is wonderful. And at the school it is stressed that they should go to college! So all the bad factors above get flayed out when the go to college and then they become a novus ordo or a agnostic catholic, or confused and depressed.
Then there are dozens of families who sends or sent their children to the school and almost zero are modest at all, I have heard their children talk about video games and movies etc. ….I changed a few things as it applies to my chapel.
The factors I think that cause this is the crises in the church is not taught well at all, the novus ordo church is not taught as evil, but as alittle brother in need of help aplace to avoid, the same as the Resistance, Sedes, and any other competitor for SSPX donations. You have mostly women in their early 20s (dressing the same as the bad students) teaching who are not well educated or smart while the pastor only teaches religion class, the evils of the outside world and how to deal with them arenotnever stressednearly as much, modesty is never mentionedas they need to be .The parents send them to the school because they themselves are not super strident catholics 7 days a week and they don't teach their children anything extra because they think the school is wonderful. And at the school it is stressed that they should be sent away to SSPX schools after 8th grade and later to college! So all the bad factors above get flayed out when the go to college and then they become a novus ordo or a agnostic catholic, or confused and depressed.
The SSPX children are leaving the Faith, losing the Faith, because it is being Novus Ordo'ed out of them like it was in the 1965 when EVERYONE did the Latin Mass and sent their children to Catholic schools. ...
If the above is true, is it equally applicable across the nations in which the SSPX is located? Or just the U.S. (and maybe a few others)? In other words, does this also occur in countries (where the SSPX is located) that are predominantly, or where a majority of the population at least identify as, Catholic?I'm in the USA, so I can only speak for the USA, however, from what I have heard from Americans that have gone to France, the SSPX trads there are much more liberal than their American counterparts. I was told that 50% of the women do not wear a vail to mass, and their daily dress is no different than any other French, tight jeans, mini-skirts, shorts, bikinis etc. That is likely why the French SSPX priest here in the USA never mention modest dressing to Americans, because their standards, the way the French dress, is much worse.
Just curious:
1) How many people posting on this forum have raised multiple children from cradle to ADULTHOOD in the past 20 years?
2). If so, how many kids did you have?
3). Have ALL of them grown to be devout, reverent, faithful Traditional Catholics?
4) If so, are they continuing successfully to transmit the same faith to their children and to what degree, and what would you say was your “secret to success “?
5) If not, please keep your thoughts about how easy you think it is to raise devout traditional Catholic children to yourself. You really have no clue.
The great Doctor of the Church St. Augustine of Hippo spent over 30 years working on his treatise De Trinitate [about the Holy Trinity], endeavoring to conceive an intelligible explanation for the mystery of the Trinity.
The Bishop of Hippo approached him and asked, “My boy, what are you doing?” “I am trying to bring all the sea into this hole,” the boy replied with a sweet smile. “But that is impossible, my dear child, the hole cannot contain all that water” said Augustine. The boy paused in his work, stood up, looked into the eyes of the Saint, and replied, “It is no more impossible than what you are trying to do – comprehend the immensity of the mystery of the Holy Trinity with your small intelligence.” The Saint was absorbed by such a keen response from that child, and turned his eyes from him for a short while. When he glanced down to ask him something else, the boy had vanished. Some say that it was an Angel sent by God to teach Augustine a lesson on pride in learning. Others affirm it was the Christ Child Himself who appeared to the Saint to remind him of the limits of human understanding before the great mysteries of our Faith. Through this story, the sea shell has become a symbol of St. Augustine and the study of theology. |
It is no secret: the grace and mercy of God.
To those who have successfully raised Traditional Catholic children to adulthood, who continue to practice their faith reverently and devoutly, what is the “secret to your success?”
(No need to reply if you do not match this criteria)
Last Trad...What you say is empty, it says nothing, you'll have to quote all of those condemnations, finger pointing, and innuendos.
Much of what is on this thread is not advice but rather condemnation, finger pointing, and innuendos.
To those who have successfully raised Traditional Catholic children to adulthood, who continue to practice their faith reverently and devoutly, what is the “secret to your success?”
It is no secret: the grace and mercy of God.
It is no secret: the grace and mercy of God.God's Grace is actual grace, which everyone in the world receives, and Sanctifying Grace which is only received by Catholics in a state of Grace, no unconfessed sins.
LastTrad, my guess is that you have not successfully raised Traditional Catholic children to adulthood.Like I showed before, God can use a child or a Donkey to teach truth. In the above two quotes what have I written what exactly do you think "is not backed by insightful experience"?. I am in my 60's, and have many years of experience in the matter seeing all of those mistakes and had the privilege of seeing the few successes of others. My learning is mostly hands on, and the books have helped me to confirm my experiences. To use your analogy, like reading the manuals after I repaired the transmission. My talking is hands on, not like books.
You sound like a person quoting a manual on how to take a part and rebuild a dual clutch transmission but have never done it yourself. While such information is true it is not backed by insightful experience.
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DAY 25 - MARY, VESSEL OF HONOR, PRAY THAT WE RECEIVE THE FRUIT OF MODESTY! GOD'S WORD "But the Lord said to Samuel, 'Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.'" (1 Samuel 16:7) HEROES' WORDS "The dress of the body should not discredit the good of the soul." -St. Cyprian "The purpose of clothing is to keep warm in winter and to cover your nakedness, not to serve your vanity." -St. Cyril of Jerusalem MEDITATION Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity. (CCC 2521) PRAY A ROSARY Choose either:
PRAYERS FOR TRADITIONAL 54 DAY NOVENA THE JOYFUL MYSTERIES OF THE HOLY ROSARY Prayer before the recitation: Sign of the cross. Hail Mary. In petition (first 27 days): Hail, Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, my Mother Mary, hail! At thy feet I humbly kneel to offer thee a Crown of Roses, snow white buds to remind thee of thy joys, each bud recalling to thee a holy mystery, each 10 bound together with my petition for a particular grace. O Holy Queen, dispenser of God's graces, and Mother of all who invoke thee, thou canst not look upon my gift and fail to see its binding. As thou receivest my gift, so wilt thou receive my petition; from thy bounty thou wilt give me the favor I so earnestly and trustingly seek. I despair of nothing that I ask of thee. Show thyself my Mother! In thanksgiving (last 27 days): Hail, Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, my Mother Mary, hail! At thy feet I gratefully kneel to offer thee a Crown of Roses snow white buds to remind thee of thy joys each bud recalling to thee a holy mystery; each ten bound together with my petition for a particular grace. O Holy Queen, Dispenser of God's graces. and Mother of all who invoke thee! thou canst not look upon my gift and fail to see its binding. As thou receivest my gift, so wilt thou receive my thanksgiving; from thy bounty thou hast given me the favor I so earnestly and trustingly sought. I despaired not of what I asked of thee, and thou hast truly shown thyself my Mother. Say: The Apostles' Creed, Our Father, 3 Hail Marys, Glory Be. The Annunciation - Our Father, 10 Hail Marys, Glory Be. Concluding Prayer: I bind these snow-white buds with a petition for the virtue of humility and humbly lay this bouquet at thy feet. The Visitation - Our Father, 10 Hail Marys, Glory Be. Concluding Prayer: I bind these snow-white buds with a petition for the virtue of charity and humbly lay this bouquet at thy feet. The Nativity - Our Father, 10 Hail Marys, Glory Be. Concluding Prayer: I bind these snow-white buds with a petition for the virtue of detachment from the world and humbly lay this bouquet at thy feet. The Presentation - Our Father, 10 Hail Marys, Glory Be. Concluding Prayer: I bind these snow-white buds with a petition for the virtue of purity and humbly lay this bouquet at thy feet. Finding the Child Jesus in the Temple - Our Father, 10 Hail Marys, Glory Be. Concluding Prayer: I bind these snow-white buds with a petition for the virtue of obedience to the will of God and humbly lay this bouquet at thy feet. Say: The Hail Holy Queen. In petition (first 27 days): Sweet Mother Mary, I offer thee this spiritual communion to bind my bouquets in a wreath to place upon thy brow. O my Mother! Look with favor upon my gift, and in thy love obtain for me (specify request, see below). Hail Mary ... In thanksgiving (last 27 days): Sweet Mother Mary, I offer thee this Spiritual Communion to bind my bouquets in a wreath to place upon thy brow in thanksgiving for (specify request, see below) which thou in thy love hast obtained for me. Hail, Mary, etc. PETITIONS: Restoration of the faith in the United States. The universal Church as the Amazon Synod approaches. Your personal intentions (name them). The personal intentions of all praying the 54 Day Novena for Our Nation & Our Church. 40 Days for Fr. Donald Calloway's Book on St. Joseph: As Fr. 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Raising children is difficult. It’s easy for people to sit around, point to statistics, and then blame and criticize why the numbers are so low. Honestly, the reason for the low numbers is blatantly obvious...really.I'm sorry Ekim but you speak like a woman, no focus, just venting, wanting people to sympathize with you. It's best that you look for a model family you can see and touch where you live.
The question is, who has beat these odds and how? (Sorry, “the grace of God” is a pretty sophomoric answer).
Last Trad...I like my privacy on the internet.
You said my wife and I are parents to “over five children”. What exactly does that mean? Five and a half? Five and two thirds? Or perhaps six, or seven, or twenty two?
Most parents proudly say “I have six children”. Just seems odd to say “over five”....just sayin’
The point was, and is, that those who have never raised children in these times find it easy to cut, paste, and opine, on how they think it should be done. They have NO CLUE the multitude of variables that affect and effect spiritual development...no matter how much you read a book no one can fully understand unless they have kids of your own.It's a waste of time trying to help you because you are just a complainer, just taking up space. By your attitude, I have to assume that you are of bad will, that some or all of my small list of examples of how to LIVE the faith, go against your current practices:
The bottom line is that the parents must truly LIVE the Faith, and by doing so they will teach their children to LIVE the faith. The problem is that scarcely any Catholics today truly LIVE the faith.
When mothers dress in tight clothes and wear high heels and such, to attract men or to follow the fashions of the young, they are not LIVING the Faith
When parents only go to mass "for the sake of the children", they are not living the Faith
When parents use birth control, they are not living the faith.
When parents leave the religious education of their children to others, they are not living the faith
When parents allow their daughters to go out with boys unsupervised, they are not living the faith.
When parents allow their daughters to dress provocatively to attract boys, (dress in tight clothes, shorts, jeans, high heels, bikinis) they are not LIVING the Faith
When parents send their daughters away to boarding school or college, they are not living the faith.
When parents allow their daughters to talk to their siblings and friends about the "crushes" they have, they are not living the faith.
When parents do anything that goes against the Faith (the list above), because "Father said it was OK" , they are not living the faith.
Tell us about your situation, Ekim.Dear Nadir,
Do you have children and if so, at what stage are they in their development.
As for my answer being sophomoric, I have been there, done that.
My children were raised in the faith of their fathers and they are faithful still today and their children are being raised Catholic.
St Augustine was raised Catholic and turned manichean
St Peter Martyr was raised manichean and rejected it for the true faith from his very infancy.
Explain this to me and I will explain how my children are faithful still. I'll give you a clue. Two words commence with G - sophomoric though you might believe it to be.
Your arrogance is impressive!
Nadir,Based on the little pink gender symbol next to Nadir's name, I suspect that Nadir is a women and thus can truthfully say, as a mother, she both can raise children and not be a father. There is no contradiction there.
Pardon my confusion but you said you raised your children in the first paragraph but in the second you say you are not a father. Again, you don’t have to clarify. It really has nothing to do with my question. The contradiction caught my attention, that’s all.
Last Trad, can you print a little larger and bolder, I still can’t hear you.Your response just shows that you read nothing, that your mind is just in complaint mode. I didn't post that large print.
Honestly, you really don’t need to reply at all because you have nothing to share regarding your own personal anecdotes on raising Traditional Catholic children.There's nothing honest about your position, if you were honest, you would have come forward and defended your position that you disagree with some or all of my recommendations, instead of hiding behind empty complaints. Be a man and admit that:
Last Trad,"Honestly", with your attitude, you are never going to get any answers from anyone. You listen to no one and insult any comments. Every word you write exudes that attitude, this is is just one example, but enough to eliminate the participation of 95% of the people with the experience you pretend to be looking for. If you wonder why only Viva and I respond to you, wonder no more, don't fool yourself, you are a drag.
Honestly, no offense but I wasn’t asking for a laundry list of what someone thinks should be done. What I was asking for were anecdotal stories...stories...of challenges that a Traditional Catholic faced while successfully raising their children and how they overcame those challenges.
Ekim wrote 5) If not, please keep your thoughts about how easy you think it is to raise devout traditional Catholic children to yourself. You really have no clue.Nadir responded to you as one who has raised devout children to adulthood and parents and you insulted and dismissed her on your every response to her.. Do you think anyone is going to respond to you?
Last Trad,Anecdotal stories are millions, what I gave is the bottom line and some examples. The bottom line is that the scarcely anyone is really LIVING the Faith and that is why they fail. I gave some typical “innocent” (as they rationalize them) examples of how they stretch their own idea of what it is to live the faith, focusing on the girls. You never asked for any details or anecdotal stories, you never mentioned any "excuses".
Honestly, no offense but I wasn’t asking for a laundry list of what someone thinks should be done. What I was asking for were anecdotal stories...stories...of challenges that a Traditional Catholic faced while successfully raising their children and how they overcame those challenges.
There's nothing honest about your position, if you were honest, you would have come forward and defended your position that you disagree with some or all of my recommendations, instead of hiding behind empty complaints. Be a man and admit that:Ekim,
That you let your wife dress in tight clothes and wear high heels and such, to attract men or to follow the fashions of the young
You go to mass "for the sake of the children" or your parents
You use birth control (NFP)
You would allow your daughters to dress in tight clothes, shorts, jeans, high heels, one piece bathing suits, bikinis....
You would let daughters to go out with boys unsupervised
You would leave the religious education of your children to others
You would send your daughters away to boarding school or college
You would do any of the list above, "because Father said it was OK"
One more from a very good friend of mine.Parents in the 1960's were caught by something out of nowhere, my parents were too. I can't blame them, it was out of nowhere. In the 1970's things were not as clear as today, but it was becoming obvious and by 1980 they should have realized that they were alone in their ideas. They should have realized what their children were up against. We trads are all alone, we are islands. We need to realize that it is very difficult for the children if they are sent to the world (a Novus Ordo school or public school or even an SSPX school) and we do not talk to them and explain EVERYTHING. We need to sit at the breakfast and dinner table and talk to the children (very few trad families eat together or talk), watch them how they interact with their friends, we need to be their parents but also their closest confidant. My children are me 50% and the wife I married 50%, they are a mix of my two greatest loves, me and my wife. They are mini me's. When I talk to them I see me as a child. Fascinating! It is easy to converse with them because I have been conversing with them all their lives. There is no question that they have that has not been answered and I encourage them to challenge my answers, so they truly understand. Had the parents in your story had good communication with their children, they would have known that the priests and nuns were telling them; "your dad means well but he’s just old fashioned and out of date, that the Scapular was superstitions". Sure he was wrong in sending them to the Novus Ordo, but that was not the main problem. His main problem was that he did not have his ears to the ground.
He was a Traditional Catholic (RIP). He sent his kids to the local Novus Ordo Catholic School. He taught them that when they go to NO Mass that they must kneel during the Consecration, avoid the “hand shake”, kneel for Communion and receiving Communion in the hand was a sacrilege. They did exactly as he instructed. In return the other kids made them feel uncomfortable. He later found out that the Priests and Nuns were telling them “Your dad means well but he’s just old fashioned and out of date”. They even told them the Scapular was superstitious. He didn’t learn this till they were grown and no longer following the faith. He said the biggest mistake he made was sending his kids to a Catholic School. He thought that in the 1970-80’s things were still reasonably safe. Instead their faith was destroyed.
Not exactly sure what to do.... I want HIM to make the decision, resign and be great full for the years he was able to serve or serve whole heartedly and with enthusiasm. Instead, it seems to be the same “I’m on the schedule AGAIN?” type of attitude. He is not on the schedule every Sunday, usually once or twice a month. Any thoughts....?My Catholic education consisted of being baptized as a baby, Sunday school for 1st communion for like 3 months of Saturdays, and same for Confirmation, after that I never went back to church till I was 40. In other words, zero education and I knew nothing. My Mother went to the Novus Ordo mass every Sunday, belonged to the Legion of Mary and did all kinds of things at the church, but she didn't live the faith. My Father just went with her. If I said we had a one wall castle I think I'd be exaggerating. My only younger sister was allowed to go out with anyone, luckily she looked like she was 12 years old till she turned like 21. Since she was 18, she was allowed to go to night clubs till 4am and such. They did send her to the Novus Ordo Catholic school, which looking back now, made things worse, for she learned a false Catholic religion. She thinks she knows the Catholic Faith, but she knows nothing. She has absolutely no fear of God (the ONLY thing I learned at Sunday school). She is the sweetest person in the world, would not betray anyone or hurt a fly. She is smart, very sociable, and noble, but she is Catholic in name only. That is what the Novus Ordo and nominal Catholicism in the house did to her. Now, fortunately for her, she has my family, her nieces and nephews as a real life example. Who knows how she will end. We are all praying for her. A lot of digression in that story, but the bottom line is that the great sinner who learned nothing about the faith but fear of God is now the trad catholic father advising other people. While the girl that went to Catholic school is now as it appears, hopelessly lost.
In the case of your son, if he does not have the inclination, do not force it on him. Not serving mass is not on my list of weak fortifications. However, why he does not want to serve and what he does with his time now, can make my list. If your only complaint is that he does not want to serve anymore, then you are miles ahead of everyone else.Like I said, if I was there I could see the whole picture as you do. One experience I had was that priest was a short tempered grump. First of all, like all grumps, he didn't like himself, and of course didn't like anyone, specially children. A bad example priest cam turn off even the most fervent child. One child complained to his parents of the ill treatment he was getting from the priests and the father didn't believe it, he told him to suck it up, to be a man. After a few months the parents realized their son was not exaggerating.
I dont have children and Im a woman.I was and still am a misfit freak. I went to public school where non-virgins were mocked and rejected. The other girls of course went out with guys, unchaperoned, drank, did drugs, dressed immodestly. I had no desire for those things, so stood out, was mocked, ostracized. I went to class, did my work, and stayed home on weekends, pursuing crafts, skills, hiking, camping, either with my parents or alone. Bullying didn’t remain a problem. If anyone crossed the line, I knew how to defend myself and took care of the matter before adult intervention was needed. If any harm was done, it was not to losing a faith I’d never been taught, but it was towards making me a person who self isolates and doesn’t enjoy a lot of socializing.
I believe sending children to school (catholic NO or public) is exposing them to a lot of danger.
Specially in teen years because of peer pressure. If other girls go out unsupervised with boys you daughter will want to do the same and she will fear to being seen as an alien or being bullied.
Peer pressure, bad NO nuns and priests, watching TV, can make a lot of damage.
Staying 7 or more hours per day with people who arent christian at all when you are a teen is dangerous. They will spend more time with this unchristian people than in home with family.
There are many families living far away from family and friends. That makes things really hard because a young wife doesn’t have a support system. Looking back at my grand parents. Family lived together or had their own homes. They helped out each other. And they had skills. They didn’t have tv or technology. They had each other.That was the Latino family way, and also the Italian family way, then they came to the USA and they slowly lost it, and became like the Americans, like snakes, having offspring and then letting them go and fend for themselves, every family member living in a different city. Their children do not even know there own first cousins.