These docuмents are not very supportive of the way Catholics should be looking at these issues. Unfortunately, Archbishop Lefebvre had already allowed into the SSPX snakes who were not in concert with (Catholic) tradition,and they were regularly pressuring the Archbishop to make an agreement and reach some accommodation with the evil powers in Rome.

   Would that the Archbishop  had dismissed these traitors within his midst, but he didn't. So they persisted in advocating for an agreement, even though there was absolutely no indication that Wyjtola could denounce his  own heresies and adopt Catholicism.That Abp. Lefebvre  retracted the agreement was a blessing from God, and allowed the SSPX to live to see another day-- otherwise they would have been absorbed already in 1988.

     The advisors to the Archbishop never should have encouraged him to even sign that docuмent in the first place. There can be no meeting of the minds with modernists and heretics-- with those who had already pledged to tear down the bastions of Catholicism; with those who openly and publicly doubted the existence of Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament; for those who openly taught that Christ did not come to fulfill the Old Law, and that therefore, all men were not bound to accept Him as Christ and as God. Attempting an agreement with people whom you know are committed against the very position they are supposedly agreeing to is sheer folly, and is irresponsible.

    The Romans has already clearly stated that the Vatican Council II was a watershed in the Church, and that, following the council, they had built their new church, a conciliar church-- different and distinct from the Catholic Church of 1,965 years. Everybody in Econe knew, or should have known , that these modernists would use words in any way they wanted, in order to achieve their revolution-- the "fathers ( heretics)" at the Council had even admitted that they had planted "bombs" in the Vatican docuмents that ,when brought to their desired fruition, would explode within the church and tear asunder the faith of Catholics.

    I would sincerely be surprised if, today, Fr. Scott ( the author of this piece form 1988), were he able to speak freely, endorsed his opinions reflected in this 1988 article. I would expect that he, also, would see that agreement as very ill- advised and a black mark upon the Society.

   
These docuмents are not very supportive of the way Catholics should be looking at these issues. Unfortunately, Archbishop Lefebvre had already allowed into the SSPX snakes who were not in concert with (Catholic) tradition, and they were regularly pressuring the Archbishop to make an agreement and reach some accommodation with the evil powers in Rome.

   Would that the Archbishop  had dismissed these traitors within his midst, but he didn't. So they persisted in advocating for an agreement, even though there was absolutely no indication that Wyjtola could denounce his own heresies and adopt Catholicism. That Abp. Lefebvre  retracted the agreement was a blessing from God, and allowed the SSPX to live to see another day-- otherwise they would have been absorbed already in 1988.

     The advisors to the Archbishop never should have encouraged him to even sign that docuмent in the first place. There can be no meeting of the minds with modernists and heretics-- with those who had already pledged to tear down the bastions of Catholicism;  with those who openly and publicly doubted the existence of Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament;  for those who openly taught that Christ did not come to fulfill the Old Law, and that therefore, all men were not bound to accept Him as Christ and as God.  Attempting an agreement with people whom you know are committed against the very position they are supposedly agreeing to is sheer folly, and is irresponsible.

    The Romans has already clearly stated that the Vatican Council II was a watershed in the Church, and that, following the council, they had built their new church, a conciliar church-- different and distinct from the Catholic Church of 1,965 years.  Everybody in Econe knew, or should have known, that these modernists would use words in any way they wanted, in order to achieve their revolution-- the "fathers (heretics)" at the Council had even admitted that they had planted "[time] bombs" in the Vatican docuмents that, when brought to their desired fruition, would explode within the church and tear asunder the faith of Catholics.

    I would sincerely be surprised if, today, Fr. Scott (the author of this piece form 1988), were he able to speak freely, endorsed his opinions reflected in this 1988 article. I would expect that he, also, would see that agreement as very ill-advised, and a black mark upon the Society.

Well said, hugeman!  And likewise, Wessex!

Yes, Fr. Scott is pure R & R which has sent him into exile because of the Society's new direction. His position is exile enough but a lesser infection of R & R has others resisting less and recognising more. In the end merging with the mainstream will be done with a great deal of contrition on the part of the Society. There have been indirect expressions of this just by listening to the leadership and reading their websites. Who can doubt that the grovelling has started?

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Curious how the SSPX and the Conciliar Church are now both so burdened with their inconvenient histories. So they do now have something in common.

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While I agree with you, I'd like you to think about a couple of nuances that are easily overlooked.  These are consequential entities, so care and precision are necessary otherwise mistakes will result.  

Apparently small differences in doctrine can result in great differences in the product down the line.

Quote from: Wessex

Yes, Fr. Scott is pure R & R which has sent him into exile because of the Society's new direction. His position is exile enough but a lesser infection of R & R has others resisting less and recognising more. In the end merging with the mainstream will be done with a great deal of contrition on the part of the Society. There have been indirect expressions of this just by listening to the leadership and reading their websites. Who can doubt that the grovelling has started?

Yes.

I wouldn't say the changes are indirect, though.  Since the conciliar church is judaised, and the "re-branding" and grovelling are actually preparation for reconciliation with the conciliar church, we have a consistent effort to judaise the SSPX from within, before the next talks. "Look dad, we are really just like you, we got rid of that bishop who refused to genuflect to the Jєω mythology;

While it's true about the Jєωs thing, there is more to it.  +W is very clear in his emphasis on the importance of DOCTRINE, while the XSPX has been promoting a watered-down approach where doctrinal compromise is allowable.  There is the greater problem, and the more prominent reason for expelling +W, because he would not stand still for their agenda on doctrinal compromise.  They could not abide by that, so they used the Jєω thing as the SCAPEGOAT, the FALL GUY for their atrocious action.

we have expressed our subordination to the Jєωs in Argentina; and that they are our elder brothers; etc."

Soon they will hold their illicit masses in Hebrew.

Likewise the contrition (retraction, really) has started with Fr Pfulger's recent comments that we should love Rome, and that rejecting Rome is equal to sedevacantism.

Please be careful with this!  It is the rejecting of Newrome, or modernist Rome or Newchurch Rome that's the problem.  If Rome would convert to her longstanding Tradition, then there would be a reason for the SSPX to no longer reject her.

Of course, in that last declaration he is absolutely right, but he doesn't realise how that is right; he is playing up to the fearsome, extremist thing, the straw man, that they have painted sedevacantism to be.  SSPX' contrived double negative, double falsehood, is a positive, a truth.

 

Their characterization of sedevacantism only has merit inasmuch as sedes would reject the TRUE Rom of Tradition -- and hopefully, they DO NOT.  If sedes ONLY reject the FALSE Newrome, that is not schismatic.


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Time To Fight;
 Excellent ! Perhaps those truly seeking knowledge and enlightenment will study these docs. Most do not realize that the powers that be ( both in the conciliar church and in the SSPX, now in the SSPx-MC), have endeavored mightily to frame the arguments so the faithful only come to their ( SSPX')  conclusions. That's what they have been using the retreats for the past forty years-- to ensure that you hear only their arguments, under the veil of silence. Its been quite successful. Even up to the very minute, literally, of the consecrations, priest members were "hoping" and "expecting" an agreement! An agreement with who? An agreement with what church? The Archbishop said those in Rome had placed themselves OUTSIDE the Catholic Church.

    Six Bishops of the Orthodox Ukrainian Rite declared, over two years ago, that Ratzinger, of his own actions, statements, and beliefs, had excommunicated himself from the Catholic Church.

   But the confusion continues. Father Pfeiffer, in his " Candlemas" sermon this past Sunday, states. quite correctly and quite clearly, that" two thousand years ago ( time of Simeon ), the High "Priests" did not recognize Jesus Christ!" ; " The priests did not recognize Christ"; "Just like the Pope (sic) today does not recognize Jesus Christ!" " The bishops(sic) do not recognize Jesus Christ!"
" They say atheists are going to heaven; they say we can't judge (the sin of) ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity";
 "The pope(sic) himself does not think of Christ!"
     Father goes on to say that St Augustine wrote, "there is no peace without Christ"-- this is how Simeon, who recognized Christ, was able to then die in peace. Father says, " The priest MUST know this! The man of God must know there is no peace without Christ!"  He recalls that St Augustine states "that it is the DUTY of the priest to carry Christ, to express Christ, to preach Christ!"
    And we know that Christ, Himself, addressed the heathens and heretics who had taken over the temples, telling them "You do not hear me because you are not of My Father; rather you are of your father, the devil, whose works ye do!"
   It is absolutely incomprehensible that 'bishops'(sic) or 'popes'(sic), who do not know Jesus Christ, and know Him not because their father is the devil, who constantly do the works of the devil, NEVER doing the works of Christ-- it is incomprehensible that anyone could consider them bishops or popes of the Catholic Church.
    Yet-- that is the position which they are trying to  fashion: These people, who do not follow Christ, who do not even know Christ, who do not preach Christ-- these people are our leaders in this church!  It is an unbelievable, unsupportable position. Without realizing it, they are allowing the leaders of Rome , and the leaders of the SSPX , to frame the arguments, to stage the discussions, to set the terms. Following them will lead right into the lap of Rome.
   However, it's a well established principle, that once something is settled, and has been ruled upon-- it is settled! We don't need to keep re-hashing it until the cows come home. The Church has settled the issue a long time ago of who is a heretic, and of who is excommunicated, ipso facto. That's the reason the (the old ) SSPX said the "so-called" excommunications were invalid and non existent. it was a settled matter of many , many years that an episcopal consecration performed without papal mandate because the consecrators believed the church was in a state of emergency and there was no one functioning as a Catholic pope (as Bp. deCastro Meyer and Abp. Lefebvre believed); that this act was not an excommunicable offense. Long settled!
    Its also a settled matter that John XXIII was not Catholic, was a heretic and modernist; that Paul VI, an open communist, was not Catholic; that Wyjtola was not Catholic; that Ratzinger was a heretic; and that this last one is a communistic revolutionary. We don't have to keep going over it. But the resistance wants to stay in the camp of the SSPX, instead of waking up the faithful and letting them be free from the dark ideas of modernism.
     Now, those who have recognized that the persons in Rome have left the Catholic Church, and therefore operate without any concern whatsoever of that conciliar organization, are not , themselves, living the Catholic faith. They have, in many, many, cases, become protestant denominations. They are little islands of worshipers, unconnected in any way to the faithful of Jesus Christ throughout the lands. And they, in many cases, eschew any such connection, keeping a close-knit, tightly wrapped group, isolated from any notion of One, Catholic and Apostolic. And here is the rub:  
     Yes, the SSPX priests, in general, do a better job of bringing people into the SSPX church, which sets them up for going into the conciliar church. They just bring them in with more love or affection for the  latin liturgy, and more shallow obedience to their priests, then most Novus Ordinarians have.
       The people, however, are starving for truth. I'm not talking about Novus Ordo's. I'm talking about the average, run of the mill Mom and Dad, the wage earners, the office workers, the typical person-- they know something big is wrong! They know something serious is wrong! They are moving from "church" to "church", looking for someone who will give them answers; they don't find the answers, and they move on to the next place. Where is the Catholic Church? Why is it hiding? The Novus Ordinarians have no answers because they have no faith--- most of them, as Father Pfeiffer says, do not know Jesus Christ. The "trads", independent from Ecclesia Dei and the SSPX, have bunkered down years ago, stay within themselves, and have accepted almost no mission to "preach the gospel" to all nations.
    And the SSPX-MC?  LIsten to Father Voight's sermon for this past Sunday, Candlemas Day. He read the Gospel of John, Our Lord asleep in the boat "We Perish", Our Lord sleeps. "Why do you fear-- oh you of little faith"--- don't you know God is directing everything-- he will fix everything?" This is like the "Adelaide" sermon Bp. Fellay gave on his " World Explanatory Tour" last year. "Yes, it's bad, its disgusting... all these heresies, all these perversions in the Church, all the presbyters attacking boys, all the sacrileges in the liturgy-- but it's just like Our Lord, beaten and bloody and dead-- taken down from the cross and given to His Mother--this is all in God's plan-- He will take care of it all!"  These are defeatist messages. These are pacifying messages.
    And , look at the latest web site of the resistance group. It's masthead says:"Where we listen to both sides of the story!"  But then the body of the 1 st page says "The Internal politics of the SSPX is strictly the domain of the priests members of that Society...." Therefore, YOU faithful have nothing to say! This is a priest's internal political matter ( and I think, therefore, they have already voted with their feet!). And, with respect to "listening to both sides of the story", they say, however," We try to stay away from open and un-moderated forums. They are frequently overrun with SeVacs (Sede Vacantists) and Feenyites. While they may have a right to express their opinions, We don't support those venues here."
     
   So who preaches the gospel " in season and out of season" to those that are searching, and looking, and questioning, and needing salvation?  The Moonies, The Dalai Lama, The protestant sects, the fundamentalists, the Mormons, the Moslems. This is what fifty years of this stupid, nefarious in-fighting has wrought. And then we just wring our hands at how bad the world is getting!  Woe unto us, friends, who take this faith and just hide it under the rug.  Every single group that compromised with the devil has lost--- Every single one of them. Quite a track record!