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Author Topic: Catechism Class  (Read 10369 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Catechism Class
« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2018, 10:41:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on January 22, 2018, 09:59:33 AM
    Lad said:

    This is nothing more than an application of the Church's disciplinary infallibility and indefectibility.

    I think, in reality, those that say that Francis is certainly the pope merely say it; however. they don't truly believe it.

    I completely agree with this.  If you ask people if they believe with the certainty of faith that Francis is pope, very few would agree that they do.
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    Offline Samuel

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #61 on: January 22, 2018, 12:43:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 22, 2018, 09:51:09 AM
    If the pope is not doubtful, then the rite is not doubtful.
    ...
    If you read what Archbishop Lefebvre actually said and wrote, it's obvious that he considered the V2 Popes to be doubtful.
    ..
    This is nothing more than an application of the Church's disciplinary infallibility and indefectibility.

    I think the Archbishop would disagree with your claims about his position, as well as with your reasoning.

    1984, Archbishop Lefebvre, Spiritual Conference in Econe, Topic: Sedevacantism and Liberalism

    Quote
    Thirdly, we pointed out that, despite the testimony of Tradition which has been alleged, there are also serious reasons, both doctrinal and historical for us, to doubt that universal laws always and necessarily imply the infallibility of the Church.

    I will try and make some time to translate the whole conference.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #62 on: January 22, 2018, 01:31:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Samuel on January 22, 2018, 12:43:09 PM
    I think the Archbishop would disagree with your claims about his position, as well as with your reasoning.

    http://www.fathercekada.com/2012/09/04/pro-sedevacantism-quotes-from-abp-lefebvre/
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #63 on: January 22, 2018, 01:44:00 PM »
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    • Samuel quotes Archbishop Lefebvre as saying:

    "Thirdly, we pointed out that, despite the testimony of Tradition which has been alleged, there are also serious reasons, both doctrinal and historical for us, to doubt that universal laws always and necessarily imply the infallibility of the Church."

    If the Archbishop is correct, then it is not necessarily the case that, "if the pope is not doubtful, then the rite is not doubtful" (as 2Vermont and Ladislaus are contending).
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Samuel

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #64 on: January 22, 2018, 01:49:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 22, 2018, 01:31:15 PM
    http://www.fathercekada.com/2012/09/04/pro-sedevacantism-quotes-from-abp-lefebvre/

    Very impressive.. until you start looking at each of these quotes in their context, then it becomes clear the Archbishop's position from start to finish was : it is possible the pope is no longer the pope, but only the Church can make this judgment. In other words, he was never a sedevacantist himself. Anyone who tries to insinuate the opposite is not being honest.

    But, this is beside the point I made. You misrepresented the Archbishop's position on "the Church's disciplinary infallibility and indefectibility".
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #65 on: January 22, 2018, 01:51:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Samuel on January 22, 2018, 01:49:33 PM
    But, this is beside the point I made. You misrepresented the Archbishop's position on "the Church's disciplinary infallibility and indefectibility".

    I never cited his view about that, only that he had doubts about the legitimacy of the V2 claimants.
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    Offline Samuel

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #66 on: January 22, 2018, 02:06:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 22, 2018, 01:51:50 PM
    I never cited his view about that, only that he had doubts about the legitimacy of the V2 claimants.

    Thanks for clarifying that.

    I think it is important to stress the fact that "doubting the legitimacy of the pope" is not the same as "being open to sedevacantism". There is a subtle but most important difference between the two, i.e. private judgment, and the Archbishop never crossed that line.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #67 on: January 22, 2018, 02:57:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 22, 2018, 01:44:00 PM
    Samuel quotes Archbishop Lefebvre as saying:

    "Thirdly, we pointed out that, despite the testimony of Tradition which has been alleged, there are also serious reasons, both doctrinal and historical for us, to doubt that universal laws always and necessarily imply the infallibility of the Church."

    If the Archbishop is correct, then it is not necessarily the case that, "if the pope is not doubtful, then the rite is not doubtful" (as 2Vermont and Ladislaus are contending).
    Yes, ABL, the leader of the R&R, is supporting the R&R position.  I'm not sure what that proves.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #68 on: January 22, 2018, 02:59:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: Samuel on January 22, 2018, 01:49:33 PM
    Very impressive.. until you start looking at each of these quotes in their context, then it becomes clear the Archbishop's position from start to finish was : it is possible the pope is no longer the pope, but only the Church can make this judgment. In other words, he was never a sedevacantist himself. Anyone who tries to insinuate the opposite is not being honest.

    Actually, most sedevacantists also believe that the Church will have to make a formal declaration to confirm the pseudo papacies in the future.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #69 on: January 22, 2018, 03:02:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Fanny on January 20, 2018, 12:48:26 PM
    .
    Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 20, 2018, 09:52:23 AM
    Quote
    .

    Quote from: Fanny on January 20, 2018, 09:33:31 AM
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    If you want to call "valid minister" #4, which is generally assumed, you also need to have a #5 "recipient must be in the right state"  which is also assumed.


    Except this is about the valid confection of a sacrament, not valid reception.

    .
    That wasn't in your question:

    "The three criteria necessary for a valid sacrament are.."
    .
    .
    Notice: your clarification has been ignored. Interesting.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #70 on: January 22, 2018, 03:04:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Neil Obstat on January 22, 2018, 03:02:01 PM


    Except this is about the valid confection of a sacrament, not valid reception.

    .
    That wasn't in your question:

    "The three criteria necessary for a valid sacrament are.."
    .
    .
    Notice: your clarification has been ignored. Interesting.
    .
    Who are you talking to??
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #71 on: January 22, 2018, 03:12:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Samuel on January 22, 2018, 02:06:48 PM
    Thanks for clarifying that.

    I think it is important to stress the fact that "doubting the legitimacy of the pope" is not the same as "being open to sedevacantism". There is a subtle but most important difference between the two, i.e. private judgment, and the Archbishop never crossed that line.

    But the quotes in the link demonstrate that he WAS open to SVism.  Did he ever publicly embrace it as his own position?  No.  But he often wondered whether or not that could be the case.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #72 on: January 22, 2018, 03:17:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 19, 2018, 08:38:58 PM
    .

    Quote from: Maria Regina on January 19, 2018, 06:26:21 PM
    Quote
    One might have reservations about the validity of the FSSP priest's sacraments if he himself were ordained by a bishop who was consecrated according to the Novus Ordo rite.


    Bravo!
    .
    Just to make sure, are you saying that whenever the Rite of Episcopal Ordination is changed, the new one becomes invalid?
    .
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #73 on: January 22, 2018, 03:20:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 22, 2018, 03:04:45 PM
    Who are you talking to??
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    Does your screen display the CI member whose post was first quoted?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #74 on: January 22, 2018, 03:42:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Neil Obstat on January 22, 2018, 03:20:12 PM
    .
    Does your screen display the CI member whose post was first quoted?
    .
    No, it seems I can only quote the most recent response (have been wondering about that; something changed from the olden days?).
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."
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