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Author Topic: Catechism Class  (Read 10333 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Catechism Class
« Reply #75 on: January 22, 2018, 03:46:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 22, 2018, 03:12:06 PM
    But the quotes in the link demonstrate that he WAS open to SVism.  Did he ever publicly embrace it as his own position?  No.  But he often wondered whether or not that could be the case.

    I'm not sure I would agree that "being open to sedevacantism" = "wondering whether sedevacantism could be the case."

    I often wonder if sedevacantism could be the case, but I am definitely not open to it.
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    Offline Samuel

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #76 on: January 22, 2018, 03:47:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 22, 2018, 03:12:06 PM
    But the quotes in the link demonstrate that he WAS open to SVism.  Did he ever publicly embrace it as his own position?  No.  But he often wondered whether or not that could be the case.

    No, and that is exactly the point. The Archbishop was open to the possibility that the Church one day would make such a judgment, but he was not open to people making this judgment for themselves, which is what today's sedevacantism does.

    In other words, he considered it possible that one day "the seat is vacant because the Church has judged the pope to be a heretic".

    But he did not consider it possible that today "the seat is vacant because I judge the pope to be a heretic".


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    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #77 on: January 22, 2018, 04:04:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Samuel on January 22, 2018, 01:49:33 PM
    Very impressive.. until you start looking at each of these quotes in their context, then it becomes clear the Archbishop's position from start to finish was : it is possible the pope is no longer the pope, but only the Church can make this judgment. In other words, he was never a sedevacantist himself. Anyone who tries to insinuate the opposite is not being honest.

    But, this is beside the point I made. You misrepresented the Archbishop's position on "the Church's disciplinary infallibility and indefectibility".


    Even if he was a sedevacantist, it doesnt mean we have to be. We're not the cult of Archbishop Lefebvre, as some french trads seem to think.
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    Offline Samuel

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #78 on: January 22, 2018, 04:31:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: kiwiboy on January 22, 2018, 04:04:18 PM

    Even if he was a sedevacantist, it doesnt mean we have to be. We're not the cult of Archbishop Lefebvre, as some french trads seem to think.

    "He that walketh with the wise, shall be wise: a friend of fools shall become like to them." (Proverbs 13:20)

    I am happy to walk with the Archbishop.
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #79 on: January 22, 2018, 04:37:23 PM »
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    • reading prophecies would be very helpful.  Chapter 12 of Daniel:  the Sacrifice of the Mass will come to an end.  How is this to come about?  Is it not the New Order?  Who put the New Order in place, was it not popes, or those who consider themselves to be pope?  vatican I defines pope, in order to have Infallibility.  

    You will know them by their fruits.  
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #80 on: January 22, 2018, 05:07:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 22, 2018, 03:46:57 PM
    I'm not sure I would agree that "being open to sedevacantism" = "wondering whether sedevacantism could be the case."

    I often wonder if sedevacantism could be the case, but I am definitely not open to it.
    You're not open to something you wonder might be true?
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    Offline Samuel

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #81 on: January 22, 2018, 05:26:15 PM »
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    • Many misunderstandings are based on a lack of proper definition of the terms we use.

    Sedevacantism #1 : The Church has judged the pope to be a heretic, therefore the seat is empty.

    Sedevacantism #2 : I have judged the pope to be a heretic, therefore the seat is empty.

    Both are called sedevacantism, but I am only open to #1 and not to #2.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #82 on: January 22, 2018, 05:26:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: TKGS on January 22, 2018, 05:07:40 PM
    You're not open to something you wonder might be true?

    For the reason Samuel stated a couple posts ago (and also because I know better than to trust my own judgment in such a complex issue):

    "No, and that is exactly the point. The Archbishop was open to the possibility that the Church one day would make such a judgment, but he was not open to people making this judgment for themselves, which is what today's sedevacantism does.

    In other words, he considered it possible that one day "the seat is vacant because the Church has judged the pope to be a heretic

    But he did not consider it possible that today "the seat is vacant because I judge the pope to be a heretic".

    I doubt there are a dozen men on the planet competent to opine on the matter (and among those, they will probably be on opposite sides).
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #83 on: January 22, 2018, 06:02:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 22, 2018, 05:26:37 PM
    For the reason Samuel stated a couple posts ago (and also because I know better than to trust my own judgment in such a complex issue):

    "No, and that is exactly the point. The Archbishop was open to the possibility that the Church one day would make such a judgment, but he was not open to people making this judgment for themselves, which is what today's sedevacantism does.

    In other words, he considered it possible that one day "the seat is vacant because the Church has judged the pope to be a heretic

    But he did not consider it possible that today "the seat is vacant because I judge the pope to be a heretic".

    I doubt there are a dozen men on the planet competent to opine on the matter (and among those, they will probably be on opposite sides).
    "It is not impossible that this hypothesis will one day be confirmed by the Church.”


    Note that ABL said "confirmed" (i.e. establish the truth of something previously believed), not declared.  
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline PG

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #84 on: January 22, 2018, 06:15:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 22, 2018, 05:26:37 PM
    For the reason Samuel stated a couple posts ago (and also because I know better than to trust my own judgment in such a complex issue):

    "No, and that is exactly the point. The Archbishop was open to the possibility that the Church one day would make such a judgment, but he was not open to people making this judgment for themselves, which is what today's sedevacantism does.

    In other words, he considered it possible that one day "the seat is vacant because the Church has judged the pope to be a heretic

    But he did not consider it possible that today "the seat is vacant because I judge the pope to be a heretic".

    I doubt there are a dozen men on the planet competent to opine on the matter (and among those, they will probably be on opposite sides).
    Do you think it is possible that after francis' death, a future pope can declare him a heretic and an anti pope, in turn removing him from any spiritual "una cuм" sense of communion with the church?  And, for physical good measure the future pope digs up his body and casts it in the river.  I think it is possible.  And, I believe francis is the pope.  In fact, for good measure, I will mention that I don't believe that a council(imperfect or perfect) can depose a pope. 
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #85 on: January 22, 2018, 06:17:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 22, 2018, 03:42:01 PM
    No, it seems I can only quote the most recent response (have been wondering about that; something changed from the olden days?).
    .
    I have tried 3 different computers and they all display the same screen for that post, which I copy here, below.
    Maybe you're using your smart phone to view posts or some other device that only shows a portion of the available message.
    .
    A - Quote from: Fanny on January 20, 2018, 10:48:26 AM
    .
    B - Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 20, 2018, 09:52:23 AM
    Quote
    .

    C - Quote from: Fanny on January 20, 2018, 09:33:31 AM
    Quote
    If you want to call "valid minister" #4, which is generally assumed, you also need to have a #5 "recipient must be in the right state"  which is also assumed.



    B - Except this is about the valid confection of a sacrament, not valid reception.


    .
    A - That wasn't in your question:

    (A) - "The three criteria necessary for a valid sacrament are.."  [Fanny is quoting here from the OP on pg. 1]
    .

    .
    (My reply) - Notice: your clarification has been ignored. Interesting.
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    .
    I removed the quote box formatting so you can see only the straight text - A, B and C are labeled as such so you can see who wrote it.
    .
    While it's true that I can only quote the most recent response by the "Quote" button, I took the liberty of ADDING two earlier posts to the body of that reply so that the context could be read without having to click on links. Most readers it seems don't bother to click on linked messages or posts, and I can't blame them. It's a pain in the neck to have to RESEARCH everything someone is saying. This new format/platform is highly deficient in this way IMHO.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #86 on: January 22, 2018, 06:28:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on January 22, 2018, 06:02:43 PM
    "It is not impossible that this hypothesis will one day be confirmed by the Church.”


    Note that ABL said "confirmed" (i.e. establish the truth of something previously believed), not declared.  
    The opposite proposition is also possible: The hypothesis may never be confirmed by the Church.

    Why not wait for the Church to sort itself out, rather than risk being wrong? 

    A wondering Catholic incurs no culpability for staying put while he wonders, nor does he sin if the Church should later confirm the hypothesis.

    On the other hand, if you are wrong, then you are in schism, and will be in a precarious position before the Lord.

    This seems (to me, at least) to be the smarter play...kind of like Pascal's Wager.

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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #87 on: January 22, 2018, 06:30:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: PG on January 22, 2018, 06:15:00 PM
    Do you think it is possible that after francis' death, a future pope can declare him a heretic and an anti pope, in turn removing him from any spiritual "una cuм" sense of communion with the church?  And, for physical good measure the future pope digs up his body and casts it in the river.  I think it is possible.  And, I believe francis is the pope.  In fact, for good measure, I will mention that I don't believe that a council(imperfect or perfect) can depose a pope.
    .
    While it is true that happened in the past, I highly doubt it will happen in the future because there are growing environmental rules and concerns that would make throwing a deceased pope's body into any river some kind of international act of war.
    .
    Of course, never mind that when a jet airliner crashes at sea all hundred or more bodies go down with it. Go figure.
    .
    As of about 15 years ago there were laws in Switzerland put into effect by which the disposal of a WATCH BATTERY in the common trash would be punishable by a fine of something like $5,000 (five thousand dollars American).
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #88 on: January 22, 2018, 06:36:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Samuel on January 22, 2018, 05:26:15 PM
    Many misunderstandings are based on a lack of proper definition of the terms we use.

    Sedevacantism #1 : The Church has judged the pope to be a heretic, therefore the seat is empty.

    Sedevacantism #2 : I have judged the pope to be a heretic, therefore the seat is empty.

    Both are called sedevacantism, but I am only open to #1 and not to #2.
    .
    Sedevacantism #1 should include the sede vacante condition that occurs every time a sitting pope dies, and such condition continues until a successor pope is elected.
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    Unless, that is, you would side with those who say that we Catholics are NOT "all sedevacantists" every time a pope dies.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #89 on: January 22, 2018, 06:39:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: PG on January 22, 2018, 06:15:00 PM
    Do you think it is possible that after francis' death, a future pope can declare him a heretic and an anti pope, in turn removing him from any spiritual "una cuм" sense of communion with the church?  And, for physical good measure the future pope digs up his body and casts it in the river.  I think it is possible.  And, I believe francis is the pope.  In fact, for good measure, I will mention that I don't believe that a council(imperfect or perfect) can depose a pope.

    I might be wrong, but I believe Siscoe/Salza explained that JST/Cajetan did not teach that a council actually deposes the Pope, but rather, that the council would declare the fact of his deposition.

    In other words, the first step is the cardinals announcing to the Church that the Pope has become a heretic.

    But then here is the debate: Is a second step required?

    Bellarmine says no.

    JST/Cajetan say yes.

    The second step is actually convening a council to declare the fact of the deposition.

    If I have this right, they are saying that the pope has deposed himself by becoming a heretic, but retains jurisdiction until the Church announces the deposition to the world from a council.

    Someone might want to double check that, but I think that is the argument.
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