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Author Topic: Catechism Class  (Read 10309 times)

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Offline PG

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Re: Catechism Class
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2018, 11:55:34 AM »
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  • Good Morning PG-

    Can you absolve your mother's sins, or confect the Holy Eucharist?

    Why not?

    You are certainly able to muster proper form, matter, and intent.

    But you are not a valid minister of those sacraments.

    Hence, criteria #4 is lacking, and the sacraments would not be valid

    Many of the manuals speak only of form, matter, and intent because the validity of the minister is presumed.
    I disagree with you here just like I disagree with +Williamson that satanic mass consecrated hosts are "certainly valid".  I cannot muster up proper intent, because the church never intended for laymen to administer those sacraments granted even with proper form and matter, which is also a stretch.  Therefore I cannot muster up proper intent.  Because, the church requires the sacrament of orders.  Valid minister falls under the criteria category of intent.  

    I mention proper form and matter as also being a stretch, because I have been to many novus ordo masses, and I have observed many liberal novus ordo ministers struggle with proper form to a degree that the occurrence is notable and similar.  Many novus ordo ministers seem to have a real problem with getting the form right for what seems to be no apparent reason(other than reading comprehension).  It is not like it is in latin.  They just cannot even say the words in modern english.  It is like cat has got their tongue.

    And, then there are novus ordo priests who can get form correct.  And, there is also an observable difference between those novus ordo priests who can get the form correct and those who cannot get the form correct.  Those who get the form correct try at the very least(sadly in none the less inadequate ways) but in noticeable enough ways to keep with/respect tradition.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline Fanny

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #31 on: January 20, 2018, 12:48:26 PM »
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  • Except this is about the valid confection of a sacrament, not valid reception.
    That wasn't in your question:
    "The three criteria necessary for a valid sacrament are.."


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #32 on: January 20, 2018, 03:14:48 PM »
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  • On the contrary:
    It is the dogmatic fact which compels the presumption.
    Then you shouldn't be questioning the validity of a rite given to the Church by the Pope.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #33 on: January 20, 2018, 03:17:06 PM »
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  • Then you shouldn't be questioning the validity of a rite given to the Church by the Pope.
    Please explain. 
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #34 on: January 20, 2018, 04:14:12 PM »
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  • OK, in the same vein:

    If an FSSP priest was ordained according to the traditional rite, why might one still have reservations about the validity of his sacraments?
    While I completely agree about #4 and have lived that conviction my whole life and I personally believe there are many invalid NO priests and bishops etc. out there, there are two other trains of thought to consider.

    1) The Church, by divine right being the only safeguard, holder and defender of the sacraments in this world, has always and everywhere presumed validity of all the sacraments until or unless proven otherwise. This includes NO consecrations/ordinations, which are of course, the sacrament of Holy Orders.

    To presume invalidity without first proving invalidity, is denying the divine prerogative given to the Church to defend, protect and preserve the sacraments till the end of the world. IOW, presuming automatic invalidity means the Church is not defending, protecting or preserving anything at all, not even thin air.

    2) If we presume validity as does the Church, then the valid NO consecrations / ordinations are exponentially (infinitely?) more sacrilegious and damaging than if they were invalid. It is this fact, in and of itself, which gives us the right, nay the duty, to completely avoid the entire NO. I know some will not grasp this reality, hence won't understand it this way and instead will insist positive invalidity as if such a thing can even be known, but that is not how it works.

    In the grand scheme of things it (validity/invalidity) is actually an academic point because as long as the NO priests and bishops etc. continue in their abominations, we can have no part of it, and this is true whether they are valid or invalid.  



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #35 on: January 20, 2018, 04:53:13 PM »
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  • While I completely agree about #4 and have lived that conviction my whole life and I personally believe there are many invalid NO priests and bishops etc. out there, there are two other trains of thought to consider.

    1) The Church, by divine right being the only safeguard, holder and defender of the sacraments in this world, has always and everywhere presumed validity of all the sacraments until or unless proven otherwise. This includes NO consecrations/ordinations, which are of course, the sacrament of Holy Orders.

    To presume invalidity without first proving invalidity, is denying the divine prerogative given to the Church to defend, protect and preserve the sacraments till the end of the world. IOW, presuming automatic invalidity means the Church is not defending, protecting or preserving anything at all, not even thin air.

    2) If we presume validity as does the Church, then the valid NO consecrations / ordinations are exponentially (infinitely?) more sacrilegious and damaging than if they were invalid. It is this fact, in and of itself, which gives us the right, nay the duty, to completely avoid the entire NO. I know some will not grasp this reality, hence won't understand it this way and instead will insist positive invalidity as if such a thing can even be known, but that is not how it works.

    In the grand scheme of things it (validity/invalidity) is actually an academic point because as long as the NO priests and bishops etc. continue in their abominations, we can have no part of it, and this is true whether they are valid or invalid.  
    Hi Stubborn-

    Good post.

    Just for clarification as regards my own personal position:

    I do not presume invalidity.

    Rather, I have a positive doubt regarding the form (which may or may not be invalidating).

    But that positive doubt compels me to abstain from the conciliar/indult sacraments, except in case of extreme necessity (when you would have nothing to lose by chancing reception of a doubtful sacrament)

    Which is another way of saying: I do not consider them invalid, but doubtful or uncertain.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #36 on: January 20, 2018, 06:03:27 PM »
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  • Hi Stubborn-

    Good post.

    Just for clarification as regards my own personal position:

    I do not presume invalidity.

    Rather, I have a positive doubt regarding the form (which may or may not be invalidating).

    But that positive doubt compels me to abstain from the conciliar/indult sacraments, except in case of extreme necessity (when you would have nothing to lose by chancing reception of a doubtful sacrament)

    Which is another way of saying: I do not consider them invalid, but doubtful or uncertain.
    Sad to say it, but under the current circuмstances, it is as if we should hope for that which prior to this crisis would be blasphemy - namely, to hope that they are all invalid - so that their sacrileges would be less grievous. But personally, I do not believe that to be the case. I think that God endures the innumerable and abominable sacrileges at the hands of valid clergy for a few sincere souls who might somehow benefit from them. Not sure I'm saying that right but I think you get my drift. I do not agree with +Williamson that attending the NOM can be a help for some people - unless if they wake up to see it for what it is and run from it, but that's not what he meant.

    I sometimes think that it is best to consider them all valid so as to have an even greater conviction against the sacrileges they commit, which, being valid clergy, means that the sacrileges and abominations are that much more grievous to Our Lord - and this certainly would fit in this crisis like a glove - and valid clergy scandalizing and sinning all over the place is what would serve the devil best. 
     
    At any rate, I don't know where the idea comes from that the SSPX do not investigate or conditionally ordain any NO priest converts any longer. Over the years I have asked that question to many different SSPX priests, the last one I asked was about a year ago I think - and to a man, they all said the same thing - that all the convert NO priests' ordinations are in fact investigated and the men are trained in the traditional priestly formation, then most (not all) get conditionally ordained. To my knowledge, which is mainly based on asking SSPX priests, this has been the same story since the SSPX began.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline wallflower

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #37 on: January 20, 2018, 06:06:28 PM »
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  • I disagree with you here just like I disagree with +Williamson that satanic mass consecrated hosts are "certainly valid".  I cannot muster up proper intent, because the church never intended for laymen to administer those sacraments granted even with proper form and matter, which is also a stretch.  Therefore I cannot muster up proper intent.  Because, the church requires the sacrament of orders.  Valid minister falls under the criteria category of intent.  

    I was always under the impression that satanic masses are said by validly ordained priests, whether living a double life or fallen away. If a group or individual does not have a priest to consecrate hosts then they steal them. I would bet a validly ordained priest and/or properly consecrated hosts are just about as important to them as they are to us, otherwise their abuses are just meaningless pretend play. They might peddle doubtful priests and sacraments to the rest of us but they aren't going to settle for less than the real thing for themselves. That level of hatred doesn't allow for half measures.


    Offline TJS

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #38 on: January 20, 2018, 06:13:40 PM »
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  • I recently heard an SSPX priest state:

    "The three criteria necessary for a valid sacrament are:

    1) Form

    2) Matter

    3) Intention"

    Question: Can anyone tell me what's wrong with that statement?
    Once again we get more crass “third-rate theology” that only the Johnson can provide.

    Let’s take a look at the Angelic Doctor and Eugenius’ Bull to the Armenians:

    "In each Sacrament there is required a minister, who confers the Sacrament with the intention of doing that which the Church intends. If any one of these three requirements is lacking, the Sacrament is not brought into being, viz., if there is lacking the due form of the words, or if the matter is not present, or if the minister does not intend to confer the Sacrament." De Articulus Fidei (part ii), St. Thomas Aquinas.

    "All Sacraments require three things - the things as matter, the words as form, and the person of the minister to confer the Sacrament with the intention of doing what the Church does."Exsultate Deo, Eugenius IV

    So it is clear that there is an intrinsic link between minister and intent which is why they’re both considered together as one. It is not possible to have a valid intention – of doing what the Church does – without a valid minister; valid intention necessarily indicates a valid minister (the reverse, however, is not true).

    Given that there are readers here who know the Johnson frequents an SSPX Church in St. Paul’s, MN, and there are faithful from that Church who also read CathInfo, and the suggestion in the opening post of a level of ignorance on the part of the priest and his abilities perhaps the Johnson may like to offer an apology for his falsehood and innuendo.

    The Johnson Slayer ™

    Offline Fanny

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #39 on: January 20, 2018, 07:03:40 PM »
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  • At any rate, I don't know where the idea comes from that the SSPX do not investigate or conditionally ordain any NO priest converts any longer. 
    Look up sspx, Krah, guzman, and connect it with fellays desire to be FSSP part 2, and you will understand.
    The SSPX CAN'T conditionally reordain or they will lose their seat at the bargaining table.

    Offline St Ignatius

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #40 on: January 20, 2018, 10:12:19 PM »
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  • The Johnson Slayer
    Another soon to fail "TM"..... Hahahahaha  :jester: 


    Offline Samuel

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #41 on: January 20, 2018, 11:19:40 PM »
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  • Once again we get more crass “third-rate theology” that only the Johnson can provide.

    Let’s take a look at the Angelic Doctor and Eugenius’ Bull to the Armenians:

    "In each Sacrament there is required a minister, who confers the Sacrament with the intention of doing that which the Church intends. If any one of these three requirements is lacking, the Sacrament is not brought into being, viz., if there is lacking the due form of the words, or if the matter is not present, or if the minister does not intend to confer the Sacrament." De Articulus Fidei (part ii), St. Thomas Aquinas.

    "All Sacraments require three things - the things as matter, the words as form, and the person of the minister to confer the Sacrament with the intention of doing what the Church does."Exsultate Deo, Eugenius IV

    So it is clear that there is an intrinsic link between minister and intent which is why they’re both considered together as one. It is not possible to have a valid intention – of doing what the Church does – without a valid minister; valid intention necessarily indicates a valid minister (the reverse, however, is not true).

    Given that there are readers here who know the Johnson frequents an SSPX Church in St. Paul’s, MN, and there are faithful from that Church who also read CathInfo, and the suggestion in the opening post of a level of ignorance on the part of the priest and his abilities perhaps the Johnson may like to offer an apology for his falsehood and innuendo.

    The Johnson Slayer

    In each of these examples it is clearly stated that the third requirement contains two elements: a minister and a proper intention. Whether you take these two together and call them one, or whether you list them separately and call them two is really beside the point, which you obviously missed: either way, the minister has to be part of the list. If he's not, then your list is not complete.

    So, if you want to challenge a man you really ought to do a little better than that. A good place to start is to reveal your own identity so the man knows whether he is fighting another man or a troll.

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #42 on: January 21, 2018, 08:33:57 AM »
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  • Bingo!

    1) Form

    2) Matter

    3) Intention

    4) Valid Minister

    In the conversation in which the SSPX priest mentioned the first three criteria, he was responding to a question as to whether or not the faithful could attend an FSSP Mass, and whether it would be valid.

    Seems like the 4th criteria is no longer in the SSPX' s radar.
    SSPX has always left out #4 because they consider priests in the new rite, especially FSSP, to be valid. 
    This is not new.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #43 on: January 21, 2018, 10:54:15 AM »
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  • In each of these examples it is clearly stated that the third requirement contains two elements: a minister and a proper intention. Whether you take these two together and call them one, or whether you list them separately and call them two is really beside the point, which you obviously missed: either way, the minister has to be part of the list. If he's not, then your list is not complete.

    So, if you want to challenge a man you really ought to do a little better than that. A good place to start is to reveal your own identity so the man knows whether he is fighting another man or a troll.
    Moreover, where did S get the idea that I was speaking about my own priest (i.e., My posts in this thread have been deliberately vague in that respect)?

    Has S made a rash judgment, and dragged my priest into this (for which he now owes him an apology)?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline TJS

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    Re: Catechism Class
    « Reply #44 on: January 21, 2018, 01:54:01 PM »
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  • In each of these examples it is clearly stated that the third requirement contains two elements: a minister and a proper intention. Whether you take these two together and call them one, or whether you list them separately and call them two is really beside the point, which you obviously missed: either way, the minister has to be part of the list. If he's not, then your list is not complete.

    So, if you want to challenge a man you really ought to do a little better than that. A good place to start is to reveal your own identity so the man knows whether he is fighting another man or a troll.

    No, it is the point; each quote states there only three. No theologian lists four – even your own beloved Cardinal Pohle sees fit to quote Eugenius’ definition – by your logic one could claim there are five Marks of the Church since ‘One’ means  not only one Faith but also commune unity, so one can create a list of five if he so wished; the proposition is absurd and you know it.

    Moreover, the Johnson clarified with a comment “All four criteria are distinct, and none of them subsists in any of the others.” Which is patently false, intention is inextricably attached to the minister.

    “… the minister has to be part of the list. If he's not, then your list is not complete.” Wow! This is Johnson logic. Intent does not exist in its own right, unlike the form and matter (e.g. for baptism, scripture and water), the intent can only exist in the intellect of the minister; that’s pretty darn obvious! And the intent is to do what the Church does and this does not include attempting to arrogate to oneself a power of Orders (contrary to Trent s.7. c.10), hence a valid intent necessarily commands a valid minister.

    So, the Johnson’s had another smack down but isn’t humble enough to apologize and admit his error (I know he’s read my post). And then you come here trying to defend his error. Together they both amply highlight why I dislike the Resistance; you’re a band of truth haters. If Johnson was an ‘honourable’ man, as he likes to claim, he would have no problem in admitting his error and, if you were, you’d have now problem with fraternal correction instead of supporting error.
     

    Slayer

    p.s. who do you think wrote “This means that, so long as form, matter, and intention suffice to produce a valid sacrament  … grace is present.” LOL!!!