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Offline Matthew

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Can a Downs Syndrome sufferer attend the Novus Ordo Mass
« on: March 23, 2016, 12:17:23 PM »
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  • The Novus Ordo Mass is held (by the old SSPX, +Lefebvre, +Williamson, etc.) to be "illicit but often valid, depending on the intention of the priest".

    So let's take a typical Novus Ordo Mass, which is said by a valid priest reverently (no clowns, women in leotards, Barney costumes, Wonder bread, or any of those radical abuses).

    We shouldn't attend because of the protestant elements that are contained, and because the liturgy is deficient. Over time, belief in things like purgatory, the Blessed Mother, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, etc. is destroyed because of the SINS OF OMISSION in the Novus Ordo.

    But the Novus Ordo and the Conciliar Religion must have some Catholicism left, otherwise we wouldn't treat "converts" from that religion as already Catholic. But we do! When someone comes to Tradition from the Novus Ordo, there is no formal abjuration required (as there is with protestant converts), nor do they have to go through RCIA as catechumens before they can receive the Sacraments.

    Now picture a young man, 18, with Downs Syndrome. He is a sweet guy, not too bright, but he wants to serve God. He believes that "going to Mass" is pleasing to God. Unfortunately, he was raised in the Novus Ordo.

    Now this man isn't capable of understanding the Crisis. You can't talk theology to him. His heart is certainly in the right place, and if the Novus Ordo he attends is valid, then it could nourish his faith, right?

    My point: there's not a whole lot of difference between a man with Downs Syndrome, a moron (a man with an IQ of 51 to 70), and an emotional, uneducated old lady. (Like the one in Mahopac, NY). In terms of ability to reason clearly, they are all equivalent!

    So it's not that surprising that +Williamson would have one advice for THIS kind of people (who don't really have the use of reason), and a whole different set of advice for the rest of us, who do have the use of reason.
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    Offline TKGS

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    Can a Downs Syndrome sufferer attend the Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #1 on: March 23, 2016, 01:10:36 PM »
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  • Of course I would not condemn a person with Downs Syndrome or other mental retardation for attending the Novus Ordo if he attends it freely and on his own.

    On the other hand, I would not think highly of any person who took him to such services or kept him away from the True Mass.


    Offline Incredulous

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    Can a Downs Syndrome sufferer attend the Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #2 on: March 23, 2016, 01:12:27 PM »
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  • The answer would be...

    "No, for what grace would come from it?"




    And this poor guy shouldn't attend the Novus ordo missae too.

    I suppose this is going to role into a Baptism discussion next?  :wink:
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Matthew

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    Can a Downs Syndrome sufferer attend the Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #3 on: March 23, 2016, 01:27:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    Of course I would not condemn a person with Downs Syndrome or other mental retardation for attending the Novus Ordo if he attends it freely and on his own.

    On the other hand, I would not think highly of any person who took him to such services or kept him away from the True Mass.


    I thought of that. The Downs Syndrome sufferer's "guardians" would be the ones you'd have to talk to, about taking him to the Tridentine Mass.
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    Offline cebu

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    Can a Downs Syndrome sufferer attend the Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #4 on: March 23, 2016, 04:28:16 PM »
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  • But the little old lady in Mahopac doesn't have carers or guardians to talk to, even though she is an emotional, uneducated elderly woman. So no-one to tell.

    What you say Matthew makes perfect sense.


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Can a Downs Syndrome sufferer attend the Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #5 on: March 23, 2016, 05:11:40 PM »
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  • Not sure if this would clear anything discussed here, but I just read this a few days ago about the "use of reason" and found what the history of the Church says on the "use of reason" interesting.

     It is not too very long, and a good read.  

    QUAM SINGULARI

    August 8, 1910

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10quam.htm

    Offline McCork

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    Can a Downs Syndrome sufferer attend the Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #6 on: March 23, 2016, 05:20:37 PM »
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  • If something is intrinsically evil, it would be a sin to even be silent when faced with the ability to warn someone away from it.

    Offline clare

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    Can a Downs Syndrome sufferer attend the Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #7 on: March 24, 2016, 03:13:59 AM »
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  • A validly baptised, mentally handicapped person is guaranteed Heaven, even if he attends a Protestant church, surely?


    Offline NatusAdMaiora

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    Can a Downs Syndrome sufferer attend the Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #8 on: March 24, 2016, 09:49:06 AM »
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  • I would like to start by saying that I believe, the Mass of the ages (The Holy Tridentine Mass) is what God has given us and we should strive to preserve and pray for it’s complete restoration.

    The analogy that comes to mind is that of our daily nutrition:

    We are aware that GMO foods are ‘intrinsically bad and harmful’ to our body and in some cases has led to severe adverse health conditions, cancer and even death. Yet, most of us consume these foods to sustain and rely on it for our nourishment as these GMO foods also contain some nutritional value. Most of us would love to switch to Non GMO/Organic foods, however many do not have ‘access’ to good healthy natural organic food products. Most of us who are ‘aware’ of the dangers of GMO foods, strive to eat healthy organic food products as it is the preferred choice for our nourishment.


    My point here is many of the 1.2 Billion Catholics do not know any better and are not informed, many, especially the younger generation have not even heard of the Holy Traditional Mass and many do not have any ‘access’ to it. Those of us who have ‘access’ to the Holy Tridentine Mass, we will always attend it as there is no other substitute!

    I do agree the Novus Ordo Missae was forced upon the faithful against their will…however in his infinite Mercy, God would never abandon his Novus Ordo faithful who are genuinely seeking his graces in His Holy sacraments. The Novus Ordo and the Conciliar Religion must have some Catholicism left….. that gives many Novus Ordo missionaries and faithful the strength to stand up for our Catholic teachings? Do we realize that many Catholic are persecuted and die for their Catholic faith in many parts of the world….. Aren’t most, if not all of them Novus Ordo, who have received Our Lord in the Eucharist?  

    I believe those of us who have been given the grace to ‘understand’ , are duty bound to assist in the restoration of the Traditional Latin Mass, witness and spread the truth to our Novus Ordo Bishops, priests and faithful. Lest we forget, we need to proclaim our faith and doctrine with our non-Catholic neighbors too.  This is often accomplished with a humble and charitable disposition towards our Novus Ordo and Non-Catholic brethren.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Can a Downs Syndrome sufferer attend the Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #9 on: March 24, 2016, 10:24:47 AM »
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  • As did Bishop Williamson, Matthew, so you too completely blur the objective and the subjective.  What's at issue isn't subjective culpability, but OBJECTIVE RIGHT AND WRONG.  What part of the Vatican II lessons regarding subjectivism did not sink in?

    And a sufferer of Down Syndrome would also be less culpable if he were to fornicate, but that doesn't mean someone should tell him that it might be OK for him to fornicate because he'd be less culpable in doing so.

    For crying out loud!

     :facepalm:

    Offline Tiffany

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    Can a Downs Syndrome sufferer attend the Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #10 on: March 24, 2016, 10:35:44 AM »
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  • Many Muslims are persecuted too.
    Having access to Mass is not a guarantee by The Lord.


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Can a Downs Syndrome sufferer attend the Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #11 on: March 24, 2016, 10:36:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: NatusAdMaiora

    My point here is many of the 1.2 Billion Catholics do not know any better and are not informed, many, especially the younger generation have not even heard of the Holy Traditional Mass and many do not have any ‘access’ to it. Those of us who have ‘access’ to the Holy Tridentine Mass, we will always attend it as there is no other substitute!

    I do agree the Novus Ordo Missae was forced upon the faithful against their will…however in his infinite Mercy, God would never abandon his Novus Ordo faithful who are genuinely seeking his graces in His Holy sacraments. The Novus Ordo and the Conciliar Religion must have some Catholicism left….. that gives many Novus Ordo missionaries and faithful the strength to stand up for our Catholic teachings? Do we realize that many Catholic are persecuted and die for their Catholic faith in many parts of the world….. Aren’t most, if not all of them Novus Ordo, who have received Our Lord in the Eucharist?  

    I believe those of us who have been given the grace to ‘understand’ , are duty bound to assist in the restoration of the Traditional Latin Mass, witness and spread the truth to our Novus Ordo Bishops, priests and faithful. Lest we forget, we need to proclaim our faith and doctrine with our non-Catholic neighbors too.  This is often accomplished with a humble and charitable disposition towards our Novus Ordo and Non-Catholic brethren.  



    Have you ever wondered why Our Lady said, "someday the rosary and scapular will save the world" why do you suppose she didn't say, someday the Mass and Sacraments will save the world, could it be she knew only a pale light would shine from them and this pale light wouldn't come from the new church known as the novus ordo. (The New Order)

    Even Our Lord mentioned when He returns will He find Faith upon the world.  

    Yes, He will always be with us but not in the abomination of desolation.    

    Offline NatusAdMaiora

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    Can a Downs Syndrome sufferer attend the Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #12 on: March 25, 2016, 07:40:56 AM »
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  • Tiffany, I do not imply that 'having access to Holy mass IS a guarantee' and most traditional Catholics can sustain without Holy Mass if they have no 'access' to a Holy Tridentine Mass.

    MyrnaM, I cannot agree with you more…and yes ‘someday Our Blessed Mother’s rosary and scapular will save the world’.

    The topic being discussed here is whether there is any Catholicism left in the Novus Ordo and the Conciliar Religion and the Novus Order Missae. As mentioned in my post,’ I do agree the Novus Ordo Missae was forced upon the faithful against their will…however in his infinite Mercy, God would never abandon his Novus Ordo faithful who are genuinely seeking his graces in His Holy sacraments’….. And to your very valid point, I would like to add that Our Blessed Mother will not abandon those who reverently recite the Holy Rosary and always wear the Scapular. As you may be aware, many Clergy and faithful in the Novus Ordo too have great devotion to Our Blessed Mother and the Holy Rosary and wear the scapular, Our Lady will not abandon her children!

    In fact, + Williamson and our Bishops / priests, remind us that at the end there will be very few priests and we will not have ‘access’ to the Holy Mass and the Holy Mass is NOT a guarantee…. We must always have utmost devotion to Our Blessed Mother, fully knowing that she will save the world. Our Bishops and priests also request the faithful to observe the devotion of the First Saturdays, as requested by Our Lady of Fatima, as it carries with it the assurance of salvation.

     

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