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Author Topic: Calling Out Pete Vere:  (Read 23573 times)

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Offline Centroamerica

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Calling Out Pete Vere:
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2014, 08:09:53 AM »
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  • Quote from: Pete Vere
    ....... when I became a traditionalist 25 years ago.



    And he's a comedian too.  :roll-laugh2:
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline soulguard

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    Calling Out Pete Vere:
    « Reply #46 on: May 29, 2014, 08:20:56 AM »
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  • Quote from: Centroamerica
    Quote from: Pete Vere
    ....... when I became a traditionalist 25 years ago.



    And he's a comedian too.  :roll-laugh2:


    There are traditional Catholics who go to the Indult. That is how I converted. It is probably how crossbro converted also. It is not a situation where outside the SSPX there is no salvation, nor is it the case that outside the SSPX there is no traditional Catholics or latin masses.

    The only reason I would hesitate to go to the indult is because of the questionable ordination rite of the new priests. That is the one and only advantage of the SSPX as far as I can see. Challenging vatican 2 is not necessary to live as a Catholic, and the mass is the same in indult as in sspx.


    Offline JPaul

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    Calling Out Pete Vere:
    « Reply #47 on: May 29, 2014, 08:44:20 AM »
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  • As an aside,

    Sean,
    Quote
    In other words, many more issues to be solved before a modern day sede will accept the pope.


    Many of these issues, it seems, will never be solved due to the fact that over the last four decades, many of the SV's contentions have been vindicated by real facts.

    It is indeed a conundrum, and comes down to one question, Is the Conciliar church, the Church of the New Advent, the Catholic Church?

    One has to stand on one side of this issue or the other, there is no third position as related to it. The answer determines one's orientation and actions.




    Offline JPaul

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    Calling Out Pete Vere:
    « Reply #48 on: May 29, 2014, 08:47:45 AM »
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  • soulguard,
    Quote
    The only reason I would hesitate to go to the indult is because of the questionable ordination rite of the new priests.


    But, there is the rub... a very serious matter when receiving the Sacraments

    Offline Pete Vere

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    Calling Out Pete Vere:
    « Reply #49 on: May 29, 2014, 11:49:06 AM »
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  • Quote from: J.Paul
    It is indeed a conundrum, and comes down to one question, Is the Conciliar church, the Church of the New Advent, the Catholic Church?

    One has to stand on one side of this issue or the other, there is no third position as related to it. The answer determines one's orientation and actions.


    Well observed, and spoken.

    As much as Mgr Williamson has tried to reduce traditional Catholicism to alleged international political cօռspιʀαcιҽs, questionable apparitions, and women boycotting trousers, at the core of traditionalist debate are questions concerning ecclesiology.

    Indult trads get this.

    Sedes get this.

    Which is why most of our hardcore theological debate has come down to Vatican II's understanding of Religious Liberty.

    There may be other issues that divide us, but they are minor compared to this one.  


    Offline Pete Vere

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    Calling Out Pete Vere:
    « Reply #50 on: May 29, 2014, 11:56:28 AM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    If sedes have to consider Thuc consecrations as invalid, what other sede bishops from non-Thuc lineage are left?


    That's the thing, Sean. Other than the SSPV, who are sede-agnostic (or as some posters here refer to it, sede-doubtist), the majority of sedes do not consider Thuc-line bishops and priests to be invalidly ordained/consecrated.

    So most sedes don't consider it an issue.

    Offline Nishant

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    Calling Out Pete Vere:
    « Reply #51 on: May 29, 2014, 12:47:04 PM »
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  • Sedevacantism is an old error, and the SSPX has refuted it many times, with very solid doctrinal and theological reasons, which it is unnecessary to go into here. Let's come to religious liberty, because the heresy of indifferentism it has led to in practice (as the Popes of old with remarkable prescience forewarned) still afflicts countless millions of souls in the Church.

    I know there've been attempts to show the text of Dignitatis Humanae is only ambiguous, and ultimately reconciliable with Tradition, though even some of these condede its practical application has been flawed. But there have been other very exhaustive studies showing otherwise.

    Pope Gregory XVI in Mirari Vos, Pope Pius IX in Quanta Cura, Pope Leo XIII in Libertas and also in Immortale Dei] and finally Pope Pius XI in Quas Primas and Pius XII in Ci Riesce express the traditional teaching. This last sums up two important principles, relating to why tolerance can sometimes be allowed, but never liberty as was traditionally defined.

    Quote from: Ci Riesce
    First: that which does not correspond to truth or to the norm of morality objectively has no right to exist, to be spread or to be activated. Secondly: failure to impede this with civil laws and coercive measures can nevertheless be justified in the interests of a higher and more general good.


    A false religion is not a good to which liberty is owed as a matter of justice, but on the contrary is an evil even the toleration of which requires a proportionate cause, and can only be permitted in the interests of a greater general good, as Pius XII goes on to say.

    The major, though not only, heresy widely held in Conciliar circles relating to this matter is that religious liberty includes a natural right to error, a right to choose a false religion. This heterodox understanding was pan-universal in the newChurch.

    +ABL had asked long ago, "Could it, please, be explained to us how man can have a natural right to error?"But now, after almost 50 years of giving an impression otherwise, the Roman authorities themselves concede in the doctrinal talks with the Society that yes, in reality, there is no right to error. +BF said, "In our talks with Rome, they clearly said that to mean that there would be a right to error, or right to choose each one his religion is false. "

    Whether DH actually says there is or is not a natural right to error is another question, but the undeniable fact is that almost everybody thought it did - and they were wrong, as even Rome now(though not yet as openly and as firmly as the Society would like) admits. This is another proof of the possibility and necessity of resistance to many of the private and non-infallible acts of the Pope.

    And the failure to resist would have had everyone thinking there really is a natural right to error. I can show you, dear Pete, several apologists who before this had publicly stated that error had rights, contrary to the traditional teaching of the Church, and rebuked traditional Catholics for saying that that was impossible and heterodox.

    Offline Graham

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    Calling Out Pete Vere:
    « Reply #52 on: May 29, 2014, 12:48:27 PM »
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  • Pete Vere, does Fr. Valuet Basile conclude in his book that a statement like the one Ambrose quoted are in conformity with Catholic tradition? For reference:

    Quote from: Francis
    Religious freedom is in fact a fundamental human right and I cannot fail to express my hope that it will be upheld throughout the Middle East and the entire world. The right to religious freedom “includes on the individual and collective levels the freedom to follow one’s conscience in religious matters and, at the same time, freedom of worship… [it also includes] the freedom to choose the religion which one judges to be true and to manifest one’s beliefs in public


    Or would he conclude that such a statement is manifestly heretical, and not even in conformity with the teaching of Vatican II?


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Calling Out Pete Vere:
    « Reply #53 on: May 29, 2014, 01:37:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: soulguard
    Quote from: Centroamerica
    Quote from: Pete Vere
    ....... when I became a traditionalist 25 years ago.



    And he's a comedian too.  :roll-laugh2:


    There are traditional Catholics who go to the Indult. That is how I converted. It is probably how crossbro converted also. It is not a situation where outside the SSPX there is no salvation, nor is it the case that outside the SSPX there is no traditional Catholics or latin masses.

    The only reason I would hesitate to go to the indult is because of the questionable ordination rite of the new priests. That is the one and only advantage of the SSPX as far as I can see. Challenging vatican 2 is not necessary to live as a Catholic, and the mass is the same in indult as in sspx.



    The Mass is important, but I never said there were not Catholics that attended the Novus Ordo. No one considered the question of Indult/SSPX/whatever an issue and it wasn't brought up.

    It is obvious that for Pete's liberal stance on Vatican 2 and religious liberty + the deception that he coauthored that he is not a Catholic.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Calling Out Pete Vere:
    « Reply #54 on: May 29, 2014, 02:26:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Sean Johnson

    Rome recognizes the validity of these episcopal consecrations as illicit (and therefore valid), but does not recognize the validity of Thuc bishops' priestly ordinations?


    Those would be very bad news for the CMRI, indeed.


    If the CMRI is correct about Rome, why would this be bad news?

    If the CMRI is incorrect about Rome, then they should be concerned with received the Sacrament of Penance.

    Other arguments come from a position of vanity.

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Calling Out Pete Vere:
    « Reply #55 on: May 29, 2014, 02:30:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ferdinand
    Matthew, is it time to boot the Neo-Feeneyite Novus Ordoist trolls?



    This may actually deserve a thread all to itself.  Feeneyite novus ordites!  

    How, in the name of Our Lord, does one reconcile the novus ordo with EENS?  The two are mutually exclusive.  If Feeneyites are novus ordites because Fr. Feeney sought after and received penance in 1978, then they don't follow an idea they follow a man.  




    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Calling Out Pete Vere:
    « Reply #56 on: May 29, 2014, 02:33:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: Pete Vere


    Every high profile sede that came over to the Indult position, of who I am aware, did so after being convinced that Vatican II's understanding of religious liberty is reconcilable with Catholic Tradition.



    Can you sum up that argument in a couple of paragraphs?  Or perhaps in a 500 - 800 word essay?  It would be great if it was a separate thread, though.  

    Or cut and paste the principal points from some other author who you feel makes an excellent case.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Calling Out Pete Vere:
    « Reply #57 on: May 29, 2014, 03:13:52 PM »
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  • Quote from: Charlemagne
    Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Charlemagne

    Oh, step off, Cantarella. If you honestly think those clowns who occupy the Vatican represent Eternal Rome, you're an absolute fool. I honestly don't give a damn what Bergoglio thinks. And it's quite appropriate that you use the "facepalm" icon, because you can't see what's right in front of you.


    AND

    Quote from: Righteousness


    Most sede camps are severely undereducated! In fact CMRI consults "Novus Ordo" theologians on issues!


    This is right. The above comment is a clear example of the type of response one usually gets from the vast majority of sedevacantists here when trying to deal with serious matters. Never a theological response to serious questions, but a repetition of biased -copied and pasted- propaganda combined with vulgar words and personal attacks.


    What serious question? What personal attack? Oh, when you called my comment "juvenile?" To say that Bergoglio is an usurper and a clown requires no theological response. Let me make this as clear as I can for you: We sedes do not recognize Francis' supposed authority; therefore, we don't care what he or his minions think. You seem to spend a lot of time here. Do you ever cook or clean?


    Don't forget the "any true Catholic" comment.....

    Cantarella is a hypocrite.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Calling Out Pete Vere:
    « Reply #58 on: May 29, 2014, 03:30:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: Pope Francis

    Religious freedom is in fact a fundamental human right and I cannot fail to express my hope that it will be upheld throughout the Middle East and the entire world. The right to religious freedom “includes on the individual and collective levels the freedom to follow one’s conscience in religious matters and, at the same time, freedom of worship… [it also includes] the freedom to choose the religion which one judges to be true and to manifest one’s beliefs in public.


    However,

    Quote from: Leo XIII

    Justice therefore forbids and reason itself forbids, the State to be godless; or to adopt a line of action which would end in godlessness, namely, to treat the various religions (as they call them) alike, and to bestow upon them promiscuously equal rights and privileges. Since then, the profession of one religion is necessary in the State, that religion must be professed which alone is true, and which can be recognized without difficulty, especially in Catholic States, because the marks of the truth are, as it were, engraved upon it.
     

    Quote from: Pius XI

    By degrees the religion of Christ was put on the same level with false religions and placed ignominiously in the same category with them.


    Quote from: Leo XIII

    The Church deems it unlawful to place the various forms of divine worship on the same footing as the true religion, but does not on that account, condemn those rulers, who for the sake of securing some great good of hindering some great evil, patiently allow custom or usage to be a kind of sanction for each kind of religion having its place in the State. And in  fact, the Church is wont to take earnest heed that no once shall be forced to embrace the Catholic Faith against his will.


    It seems that there is great disparity between the approach of the conciliar popes with that of those before.

    How can Religious Liberty be ever reconciled with Church dogma and Tradition?.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Calling Out Pete Vere:
    « Reply #59 on: May 29, 2014, 03:45:29 PM »
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  • I always thought the ecuмenism piece was the bigger issue, but perhaps that's wrapped up with religious liberty.