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Author Topic: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"  (Read 19822 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
« Reply #180 on: August 11, 2023, 09:25:41 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on August 11, 2023, 07:40:03 AM

    I agree with this…☝️☝️☝️

    Frankly, he lost me when he endorsed Valtorta.

    Before that it was Garabandal and Akita (but mostly Garabandal).
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #181 on: August 11, 2023, 09:27:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 11, 2023, 09:23:34 AM
    I wonder if Fr. Hewko gave a recent (or maybe not so recent) talk or sermon about New Mass miracles. There must be something that set off +W in this regard, to cause +W to require this stipulation about believing in New Mass miracles. I'm fine with believing that miracles could happen in a New Mass, as Sean's catechetical refutation points out that every time that transubstantiation occurs in the New Mass (when it does occur), a miracle takes place. That makes sense. There must be a further reason why +W is taking this stance of needing this requirement for holy oils being provided to the very uncharitable Fr. Hewko.

    The illusion Lad is trying to create bursts once one considers that, were Williamson talking to anyone besides Hewko, no such "condition" would be erected.

    That in turn is proof that Williamson does not really believe that belief in NOM miracles is a dogma of the faith.

    A little common sense would have suggested that to anyone without an agenda.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #182 on: August 11, 2023, 09:43:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 11, 2023, 09:27:56 AM
    That in turn is proof that Williamson does not really believe that belief in NOM miracles is a dogma of the faith.

    So you're calling him a liar.  He doesn't "really" believe it.  He's said it several times now, in different ways, and doubled down on the claim when you wrote him.

    I don't think he's lying.  You are, deliberately distorting what he actually said in the interests of your shilling.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #183 on: August 11, 2023, 09:48:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 11, 2023, 09:43:47 AM
    So you're calling him a liar.  He doesn't "really" believe it.  He's said it several times now, in different ways, and doubled down on the claim when you wrote him.

    I don't think he's lying.  You are, deliberately distorting what he actually said in the interests of your shilling.

    No. I'm calling YOU a liar.

    Williamson never counted on Cathinfo morons reading a private "buzz-off" email to Hewko, and thinking (contriving, actually) he was erecting a new dogma.

    And of course, your incessant shilling results in more of the above projection.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #184 on: August 11, 2023, 10:00:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 11, 2023, 09:27:56 AM
    The illusion Lad is trying to create bursts once one considers that, were Williamson talking to anyone besides Hewko, no such "condition" would be erected.

    That in turn is proof that Williamson does not really believe that belief in NOM miracles is a dogma of the faith.

    A little common sense would have suggested that to anyone without an agenda.

    Agreed. Who else has +W required this condition from? No one that we know of, or have heard of. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Crayolcold

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #185 on: August 11, 2023, 10:53:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 10, 2023, 08:14:22 AM

    I sent +Williamson the following email, and if he responds, I will post his reply:


    Greetings Your Lordship-

    ...

    Some online commentators are construing Your Lordship’s words as requiring belief in Novus Ordo miracles as a prerequisite for the reception of holy oils, while others are saying this is simply Your Lordship’s way of telling Fr. Hewko to buzz off (not just because of disagreement on this issue, but 10 others over the years as well), by requiring a condition Your Lordship knows he won’t accept.

    ...

    You sent +W an email containing the section above where you are obviously trying to lead him to a response which makes him qualify his previous statement about "belief in NO miracles being required for Holy Oils". You say that it is obvious that he is not dogmatizing this issue and that there are "10 other reasons over the years" for why he would deny Fr. Hewko Holy Oils. Interestingly, the bishop completely ignores your leading statement in his response:

    Quote
    +Williamson responds:


    Dear Sean,

    It is clear and repeated denial of true scientific evidence which renders anyone guilty of one of the unforgivable sins against the Holy Ghost. Let anybody in doubt look them up.

    Common sense says that precious gifts of God should hardly be handed out to people hardly able to appreciate reality.


    God bless, BpW.


    No where does he reference other issues with Fr. Hewko, even though you desperately tried to make him qualify his position to include not just the NO miracle issue but also past issues he has had with Fr. Hewko. These emails do not look good for +W, even though I have great respect for him. And it seems that others who also have great respect for the Bishop are troubled by this. All except for you, who seem to be coping pretty hard.

    I am sure +W is letting his personal feelings toward Fr. Hewko get in the way and he may have other reasons for not giving Holy Oils, but the fact he is not mentioning them (even after you tried to lead him in that direction in his response) and dying on this NO hill is cause for concern and makes it seem like he is in fact dogmatizing private revelation.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #186 on: August 11, 2023, 11:01:20 AM »
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    • Quote
    Williamson never counted on Cathinfo morons reading a private "buzz-off" email to Hewko, and thinking (contriving, actually) he was erecting a new dogma.
    +W said what he said.  Now you're spinning what he said, to mean something else.  CNN would be proud, Sean.

    So +W wants a de-centralized resistance, but he still wants authority enough to play passive-aggressive mind games with priests he disagrees with?  Look, Fr Hewko created his own mess and if I were +W, I wouldn't deal with him either.  I'm not faulting +W for brushing off Fr Hewko.  But what I am faulting +W for, is the lack of directness, the lack of principled decision-making, and the lack of clarity, by inserting some odd-ball "stipulations", instead of just being direct, plain and to the point.  +W's passive aggressive approach is a disaster.

    Now, instead of just confusing Fr Hewko, +W has added confusion throughout all of the resistance.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #187 on: August 11, 2023, 11:10:41 AM »
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    • Bp. Williamson wrote:

    "Common sense says that precious gifts of God [presumably, he is referring to holy oils] should hardly be handed out to people hardly able to appreciate reality."

    IMO, this all has to do with holy oils, and not providing them to someone who cannot appreciate reality. Reality, in this case, being miracles in the New Mass. I'm perplexed by this situation, but not alarmed, as some here are. If folks here want to be upset by this, that's their choice. It's not like any of us here are going to be asking for holy oils.

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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #188 on: August 11, 2023, 11:52:29 AM »
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    • Meg, +W's comments go far beyond just holy oils.  You don't think +W made sure that all the Bishops he consecrated agreed with N.O. "miracles"?  Based on his previous comments regarding the "maybe, possibly, sometimes it's ok to attend the new mass" then this push for acceptance of miracles, shows that +W is not being led 100% by principles but also by emotion.  In matters of doctrine/theology, this is dangerous.  

    And such thinking probably permeates all of the Resistance.  Which leads to a further question:  What is the major difference between the Resistance (i.e. accepts the new mass as ok, in theory) and the new-sspx (i.e. same views on the new mass)?  Seems to me the only difference is the resistance rejects an agreement with new-rome (similar to +ABL), while the new-sspx wants an agreement.  But the underlying principles for both organizations are indult-ish. 

    +ABL was indult-ish in attitude until 1988, when he finally said 'no!' to new-rome and consecrated bishops.  Then +Fellay took over and slowly morphed the sspx back towards the indult mentality.  Surprising that the Resistance (i.e. +W's leadership) is also morphing back to the indult mentality.  

    Did +W not learn anything from +Fellay's maneuverings and manipulations?
    Or has +Vigano pulled on +W's heart-strings by his anti-rome writings?
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    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #189 on: August 11, 2023, 11:55:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 11, 2023, 09:27:56 AM
    The illusion Lad is trying to create bursts once one considers that, were Williamson talking to anyone besides Hewko, no such "condition" would be erected.

    That in turn is proof that Williamson does not really believe that belief in NOM miracles is a dogma of the faith.

    A little common sense would have suggested that to anyone without an agenda.
    Knowing +Bp. W., this is likely correct.  He’s giving Fr. a dose of his own medicine.  Try to imagine the bishop intoning the words! 
    And yes, there’s a lot more unspoken than spoken on the part of both men.  
    I hope they either part ways and get on with it, or settle it in private.  
    :fryingpan::fryingpan:
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #190 on: August 11, 2023, 12:06:25 PM »
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    • Quote
    were Williamson talking to anyone besides Hewko, no such "condition" would be erected.
    I don't believe this and there's no evidence to suggest it.  +W's push for acceptance of NO miracles is perfectly consistent with his over-emphasis on other apparitions, and how such affects his theology.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #191 on: August 11, 2023, 12:16:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Seraphina on August 11, 2023, 11:55:57 AM
    Knowing +Bp. W., this is likely correct.  He’s giving Fr. a dose of his own medicine.  Try to imagine the bishop intoning the words!

    If he's playing some childish mind-games (and, yes, they come across as very childish), then it's highly irresponsible, since a lot of the faithful are influenced by things he says.  But, as Pax points out, there's no evidence to suggest it.  Not only did he double down, but he even stipulated the exact things Father Hewko would have to do in order to get the Holy Oils.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #192 on: August 11, 2023, 12:56:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 11, 2023, 11:52:29 AM
    Meg, +W's comments go far beyond just holy oils.  You don't think +W made sure that all the Bishops he consecrated agreed with N.O. "miracles"?  Based on his previous comments regarding the "maybe, possibly, sometimes it's ok to attend the new mass" then this push for acceptance of miracles, shows that +W is not being led 100% by principles but also by emotion.  In matters of doctrine/theology, this is dangerous. 

    And such thinking probably permeates all of the Resistance.  Which leads to a further question:  What is the major difference between the Resistance (i.e. accepts the new mass as ok, in theory) and the new-sspx (i.e. same views on the new mass)?  Seems to me the only difference is the resistance rejects an agreement with new-rome (similar to +ABL), while the new-sspx wants an agreement.  But the underlying principles for both organizations are indult-ish. 

    +ABL was indult-ish in attitude until 1988, when he finally said 'no!' to new-rome and consecrated bishops.  Then +Fellay took over and slowly morphed the sspx back towards the indult mentality.  Surprising that the Resistance (i.e. +W's leadership) is also morphing back to the indult mentality. 

    Did +W not learn anything from +Fellay's maneuverings and manipulations?
    Or has +Vigano pulled on +W's heart-strings by his anti-rome writings?


    Good post!
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #193 on: August 11, 2023, 12:57:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 11, 2023, 12:16:51 PM
    If he's playing some childish mind-games (and, yes, they come across as very childish), then it's highly irresponsible, since a lot of the faithful are influenced by things he says.  But, as Pax points out, there's no evidence to suggest it.  Not only did he double down, but he even stipulated the exact things Father Hewko would have to do in order to get the Holy Oils.


    Also a good post.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Bellato

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #194 on: August 11, 2023, 05:36:10 PM »
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    • Since this was private correspondence, did Bishop Williamson authorize Fr. Hewko to make it public?
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