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Author Topic: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"  (Read 19836 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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  • False reasoning:

    1) It is not the rite which (possibly) produces miracles, but God;

    2) It does not follow that because there is (possibly) a miracle, the rite is to be lauded. 

    For example, I give an exactly opposite reason why God would (possibly) perform a Eucharistic miracle at the No us Ordo:

    To instill belief in the real presence, which the Novus Ordo attacks.


    1) You are arguing over semantics since God is supposedly using that “rite” as a vehicle to display his miraculous powers. 

    2) I disagree. There is no precedent for God using a false rite to perform miracles and why would He confirm the truth of the real presence by using that abomination?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Ladislaus

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  • I note you are always emphasizing the possibility the evidence could be tampered with, bunk, diabolic, etc.

    What you never allow is that it is possibly authentic (i.e., even the possibility is a priori unacceptable/impossible).

    That's YOUR error, not Williamson's.

    You're changing the subject, Johnson.  Burden of Proof here +Williamson, since has declared it a requirement to be in "his Church" and to avoid sinning against the Holy Spirit.  You're entitled to your opinion, even though you're wrong.  But the problem here is that of +Williamson effectively dogmatizing the issue.


    Online Ladislaus

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  • 1) You are arguing over semantics since God is supposedly using that “rite” as a vehicle to display his miraculous powers.

    2) I disagree. There is no precedent for God using a false rite to perform miracles and why would He confirm the truth of the real presence by using that abomination?

    Don't get sucked in here by Johnson, who's deliberately changing the subject.  We've debated about whether God WOULD work miracles through the NOM.  Since we're not God, it's purely speculative on both sides.  I think Johnson is wrong, but that's NOT the issue here.  What's at issue is +Williamson's dogmatizing the NO "Eucharistic miracles", characterizing them as a requirement to be in "his Church", to receive Holy Oils, and to avoid sinning against the Holy Ghost.

    Sean needs to defend that assertion from +Williamson and not the possibility that the NO "Eucharistic miracles" might be legit.  He's been sidestepping that by distraction, arguing about the NO "miracles" instead.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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  • Quote
    2) It does not follow that because there is (possibly) a miracle, the rite is to be lauded. 
    :facepalm:

    Christ tells us, emphatically, that bad trees (i.e. new mass) cannot bear good fruit (miracles).  He also begins this lesson by telling us to "beware of false prophets".  It really can't get any clearer.

    15Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.  (Matthew ch 7)


    Quote
    For example, I give an exactly opposite reason why God would (possibly) perform a Eucharistic miracle at the No us Ordo:

    To instill belief in the real presence, which the Novus Ordo attacks.
    6Give not that which is holy to dogs; neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you.  (Matt 7)


    Quote
    I disagree. There is no precedent for God using a false rite to perform miracles and why would He confirm the truth of the real presence by using that abomination?
    Agree, God has told us He would not act in this way.  Not even those that work miracles, are 100% from God.

    21Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.  (Matt 7)

    “For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive, if possible, even the elect.” Matthew 24:24.


    Offline Motorede

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  • This fighting between two traditional men with Holy Orders is probably the saddest thing I've seen on this forum. Can't one of them take the high road? Is the counsel of Our Lord in the Sermon on the Mount just theoretical and not practical? "Blessed are the peacemakers..." We are supposed to be the Cream of the Crop among Catholics. No one ever said that the virtue of Charity is easy. What's happened to us? "...if you have anything against your neighbor, make amends before you bring your gift to the altar"....."Lord, how many times must I forgive my neighbor, seven times? "No, Peter, seventy times seven." I've lost tons of respect for both of them. And I do hope that +Zendejas doesn't figure in to Fr. Hewko's having to beg for Oils from His Grace. Why would FrH have to appeal to +Williamson way across the sea when he could receive them locally? Unless....


    Online Ladislaus

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  • This fighting between two traditional men with Holy Orders is probably the saddest thing I've seen on this forum. Can't one of them take the high road? Is the counsel of Our Lord in the Sermon on the Mount just theoretical and not practical? "Blessed are the peacemakers..." We are supposed to be the Cream of the Crop among Catholics. No one ever said that the virtue of Charity is easy. What's happened to us? "...if you have anything against your neighbor, make amends before you bring your gift to the altar"....."Lord, how many times must I forgive my neighbor, seven times? "No, Peter, seventy times seven." I've lost tons of respect for both of them. And I do hope that +Zendejas doesn't figure in to Fr. Hewko's having to beg for Oils from His Grace. Why would FrH have to appeal to +Williamson way across the sea when he could receive them locally? Unless....

    It's petty and childish, with little regard paid to the good of souls.  They're not even bickering about anything of serious import to the Catholic faith here.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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  • This thread has little to do with Eucharistic miracles and everything to do with a defiant priest very publicly and energetically attacking the sole faithful bishop of the SSPX, to the point of "Fake Resistance", and then expecting his support.

    Why the attack on Bishop Williamson by this priest, Fr David Hewko? For holding opinions that are not forbidden by the Catholic Faith.

    This is not at all about Eucharisitc miracles - Bishop Williamson is as good as saying to Fr Hewko that he will come to his succour the moment he publicly apologises for his outrageous attacks and publicly reconciles with the bishop he should never have separated from. As the Bishop says, he needs to choose.

    Publishing this correspondence of his with the good Bishop is the latest of the miserable attempts of Fr Hewko at self-justification. Nothing could give BW clearer proof of his unrepentance.

    The idea that BW ought to accede to the requests of this priest without his publicly reconciling with him are utterly outrageous and neither for the glory of God nor the salvation of souls. Fr Hewko has led faithful all around the world down a dead end of no priests, no sacraments, no Church... there are faithful of his that are already effectively at this point, so isolated are they from this "one faithful priest" (!) that they will never receive another sacrament before they die.

    Only one thing must happen: this delinquent priest must fall on his knees and ask Bishop Williamson forgiveness and get back to work with the other good priests advancing the Kingdom of God on Earth.

    Let us pray that he does that.




    Offline Seraphina

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  • Right?  Could you imagine if this was Father Cekada or Bishop Sanborn?  :laugh1:

    On a serious note, however....is it possible that there is something seriously wrong with Bishop Williamson (cognitively speaking)? These comments seem totally imbalanced.
    Well, +Bp. W. HAS noticeably aged the last couple of years.  His speech has slowed down and he no longer thunders as before.  Sometimes he forgets and pauses to search for words.   This isn’t a personal criticism or finding of fault, simply an observation of reality.  
    I hope Fr. Hewko acknowledges this reality. His Excellency has spoken his mind.  He’s not giving out Holy Oils.  Time to move on.  
    If Fr. Hewko can find absolutely nobody to give him oils, no bishop, no fellow priest, (is that even allowed?), then I think he needs to seriously consider why.  Yes, a priest can say Mass and perform some Sacraments without them, but who would want such a priest to baptize their children (or adults) or come to your loved one’s death bed?  
    If he is literally the ONLY priest available, fine, but if not, it makes no sense.  


    Online Ladislaus

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  • This thread has little to do with Eucharistic miracles and everything to do with a defiant priest very publicly and energetically attacking the sole faithful bishop of the SSPX, to the point of "Fake Resistance", and then expecting his support.

    Why the attack on Bishop Williamson by this priest, Fr David Hewko? For holding opinions that are not forbidden by the Catholic Faith.

    This is not at all about Eucharisitc miracles - Bishop Williamson is as good as saying to Fr Hewko that he will come to his succour the moment he publicly apologises for his outrageous attacks and publicly reconciles with the bishop he should never have separated from. As the Bishop says, he needs to choose.

    So you're saying that Bishop Williamson is a liar?  He stated very concretely that it is "all about Eucharistic miracles" (as you put it) in terms of whether he'd give Father Hewko the Holy Oils, that denying the NO "miracles" means that he's not in the "same Church" that he's in and that it's tantamount to a sin against the Holy Ghost.

    Offline Seraphina

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  • This thread has little to do with Eucharistic miracles and everything to do with a defiant priest very publicly and energetically attacking the sole faithful bishop of the SSPX, to the point of "Fake Resistance", and then expecting his support.

    Why the attack on Bishop Williamson by this priest, Fr David Hewko? For holding opinions that are not forbidden by the Catholic Faith.

    This is not at all about Eucharisitc miracles - Bishop Williamson is as good as saying to Fr Hewko that he will come to his succour the moment he publicly apologises for his outrageous attacks and publicly reconciles with the bishop he should never have separated from. As the Bishop says, he needs to choose.

    Publishing this correspondence of his with the good Bishop is the latest of the miserable attempts of Fr Hewko at self-justification. Nothing could give BW clearer proof of his unrepentance.

    The idea that BW ought to accede to the requests of this priest without his publicly reconciling with him are utterly outrageous and neither for the glory of God nor the salvation of souls. Fr Hewko has led faithful all around the world down a dead end of no priests, no sacraments, no Church... there are faithful of his that are already effectively at this point, so isolated are they from this "one faithful priest" (!) that they will never receive another sacrament before they die.

    Only one thing must happen: this delinquent priest must fall on his knees and ask Bishop Williamson forgiveness and get back to work with the other good priests advancing the Kingdom of God on Earth.

    Let us pray that he does that.
    Preach it, Pardner!  :cowboy:   

    Online Ladislaus

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  • Preach it, Pardner!  :cowboy: 

    Too bad he's a liar and completely distorted what Bishop Williamson said.


    Offline trento

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  • Right?  Could you imagine if this was Father Cekada or Bishop Sanborn?  :laugh1:

    On a serious note, however....is it possible that there is something seriously wrong with Bishop Williamson (cognitively speaking)? These comments seem totally imbalanced.

    My personal observation is that Bishop Williamson is going down the Thuc way. I fear that his love of dwelling on matters not related to the Faith he insists must be taken as the absolute truth is going to confuse souls even further. It's sad.

    Offline Always

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  • As an aside, has His Excellency stated his views one way or the other regarding the Flat Earth/Globe Earth debate?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • 1) You are arguing over semantics since God is supposedly using that “rite” as a vehicle to display his miraculous powers.

    2) I disagree. There is no precedent for God using a false rite to perform miracles and why would He confirm the truth of the real presence by using that abomination?

    Au contraire:

    1) God woud be combating that rite by performing a miracle in opposition to what that rite implies;

    2) God is not "using a false rite" to perform a miracle: He is (posssibly) using his own power to perform the miracle.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • You're changing the subject, Johnson.  Burden of Proof here +Williamson, since has declared it a requirement to be in "his Church" and to avoid sinning against the Holy Spirit.  You're entitled to your opinion, even though you're wrong.  But the problem here is that of +Williamson effectively dogmatizing the issue.

    Au contraire: 

    You're entitled to your opinion, even though you're wrong (and conceded my opinion was a posssibility earlier earlier in the thread).

    WIlliamson has dogmatized nothing, and that you pretend he has shows your own animus.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."