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Author Topic: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"  (Read 19831 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
« Reply #105 on: August 10, 2023, 01:50:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 10, 2023, 01:28:40 PM
    Very well written article about these alleged NO miracles, including some citations from "scientists" who disagree with even the scientific conclusion:

    https://catholiccandle.neocities.org/priests/williamson-bad-fruits-miracles
    ... and ...

    It looks like the "Catholic Candle" website is run by a layman, who doesn't provide his name, and that's fine. He says that he attends a mass offered by a Fr. Rafael, from Mexico, but that they don't have a bishop, and that they are the "Real Resistance."

    Does anyone know who this priest is? He isn't sedevacantist, since the website owner warns against sedevacantism as being schismatic. The website owner also has big problems with the Resistance under Bp. Williamson, as well as the SSPX.

    https://catholiccandle.neocities.org/faith/living-in-the-catacombs-for-fifty-plus-years-with-no-end-in-sight
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #106 on: August 10, 2023, 01:58:36 PM »
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #107 on: August 10, 2023, 02:18:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 10, 2023, 10:56:32 AM
    +Williamson responds:


    Dear Sean,

    It is clear and repeated denial of true scientific evidence which renders anyone guilty of one of the unforgivable sins against the Holy Ghost. Let anybody in doubt look them up.

    Common sense says that precious gifts of God should hardly be handed out to people hardly able to appreciate reality.


    God bless, BpW.


    It seems to me that if the good bishop sincerely believes these miraculous fruits come from the Novus Ordo Missae, he should reconcile with the church who authored it. If the NO missae comes from the Church and is thus valid, good and holy (in some cases?), what was the purpose of defending the Tridentine Mass all of these years?
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #108 on: August 10, 2023, 04:07:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on August 10, 2023, 02:18:19 PM

    It seems to me that if the good bishop sincerely believes these miraculous fruits come from the Novus Ordo Missae, he should reconcile with the church who authored it. If the NO missae comes from the Church and is thus valid, good and holy (in some cases?), what was the purpose of defending the Tridentine Mass all of these years?

    That's a good question.

    But I don't think that the conciliar church would be the author of any supposed eucharistic miracle that might take place in it. God would be the author of that, if it were really true. If we believe that the Catholic Church is occupied by a Modernist sect (as a few of us on this forum do) rather than the visible Church in Rome being completely extinct, then it might follow that the Modernist sect that occupies the Church draws its life from the True Church that is being occupied. Bp. Tissier de Mallerias once likened this to a parasite which feeds off of a host. The parasite cannot live, except for what it draws from the lifeblood of its victim; in this case, the victim being the Catholic Church. The Church is still alive, but occupied. Maybe that's what +W is getting at? He doesn't want a schismatic mentality to prevail, perhaps? I don't really know. I do hope that he offers some clarification at some point.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #109 on: August 10, 2023, 04:16:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 10, 2023, 01:50:18 PM
    It looks like the "Catholic Candle" website is run by a layman, who doesn't provide his name, and that's fine. He says that he attends a mass offered by a Fr. Rafael, from Mexico, but that they don't have a bishop, and that they are the "Real Resistance."

    Does anyone know who this priest is? He isn't sedevacantist, since the website owner warns against sedevacantism as being schismatic. The website owner also has big problems with the Resistance under Bp. Williamson, as well as the SSPX.

    https://catholiccandle.neocities.org/faith/living-in-the-catacombs-for-fifty-plus-years-with-no-end-in-sight

    He's a Chicago attorney named John Pfeiffer (alleged distant reletive of Fr. Pfeiffer), former Pfeifferien, then former Hewkonian, then supporter of the confirming priest, Fr. Arrizaga, and (last I heard) current home-aloner.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #110 on: August 10, 2023, 04:18:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on August 10, 2023, 02:18:19 PM

    It seems to me that if the good bishop sincerely believes these miraculous fruits come from the Novus Ordo Missae, he should reconcile with the church who authored it. If the NO missae comes from the Church and is thus valid, good and holy (in some cases?), what was the purpose of defending the Tridentine Mass all of these years?

    Why woud Williamson reconcile with the conciliar church?

    Also: Please provide a quote of Williamson describing the Novus Ordo rite as "good and holy."
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #111 on: August 10, 2023, 04:20:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on August 10, 2023, 11:53:44 AM
    When Williamson dies who will be your next infallible guide?

    You.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #112 on: August 10, 2023, 04:23:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on August 10, 2023, 12:53:10 PM
    I will gladly attack any eccentrics who believe in any dogmas proclaimed after 1950.

    Judging from Bp. Williamson's response posted by Sean Johnson, the good bishop has apparently become much more eccentric than usual lately.

    I have a huge respect for him, but somethings simply cannot be accepted.

    Bogus Marian apparitions, Valtorta, attendance at the Novus Ordo Mass, and now, the "reality" of a "miracle".:facepalm:

    Can you please quote +Williamson stating a dogma was proclaimed after 1950?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #113 on: August 10, 2023, 04:26:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 10, 2023, 01:11:22 PM
    Yeah, scientific "evidence" is regularly being debunked.

    And, if there is one that stands up to scientific scrutiny, there's always the possibility that the devil could have simulated such "miracles".  It would be a very simple matter for the devil to swap out the bread for a piece of heart tissue, with the correct blood type (matching the Shroud, for instance), etc.

    I note you are always emphasizing the possibility the evidence could be tampered with, bunk, diabolic, etc.

    What you never allow is that it is possibly authentic (i.e., even the possibility is a priori unacceptable/impossible).

    That's YOUR error, not Williamson's.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #114 on: August 10, 2023, 04:28:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mr G on August 10, 2023, 01:42:37 PM
    Actually, he said the sin against the Holy Ghost is the "repeated denial of true scientific evidence" and not the "acceptance of NO 'Eucharistic miracles.' " The qualifying condition is that the evidence must be both "scientific" and "true." If the evidence is speculative, falsified, or even disputed, then the condition the bishop states regarding the sinfulness of the denial will not apply.

    Please don't bother them with pesky details like this.  They're busy pumping each other up, for the glory of sedevacantism and the last uncompromised priest on earth (Hewko).
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #115 on: August 10, 2023, 04:44:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 10, 2023, 04:18:24 PM
    Why woud Williamson reconcile with the conciliar church?

    Also: Please provide a quote of Williamson describing the Novus Ordo rite as "good and holy."

    He should reconcile with the conciliar church since he believes that it’s “mass” is not only valid, but actually is to be highly lauded since it produces miracles.

    I have no exact quote, but it’s easily deduced from his staunch opinion that miracles are produced by it. Logically, it must be good and holy since God would never allow miracles to come from something that is not good and unholy.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #116 on: August 10, 2023, 04:58:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on August 10, 2023, 04:44:44 PM
    He should reconcile with the conciliar church since he believes that it’s “mass” is not only valid, but actually is to be highly lauded since it produces miracles.

    I have no exact quote, but it’s easily deduced from his staunch opinion that miracles are produced by it. Logically, it must be good and holy since God would never allow miracles to come from something that is not good and unholy.

    False reasoning:

    1) It is not the rite which (possibly) produces miracles, but God;

    2) It does not follow that because there is (possibly) a miracle, the rite is to be lauded.  

    For example, I give an exactly opposite reason why God would (possibly) perform a Eucharistic miracle at the No us Ordo:

    To instill belief in the real presence, which the Novus Ordo attacks.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #117 on: August 10, 2023, 05:26:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on August 10, 2023, 11:37:57 AM
    I have a feeling that the same people who attack "dogmatic sedevacantists" will defend Bp. Williamson's new dogma and his anathema of all sedevacantists and others who believe God wouldn't approve the Bogus Ordo by miracles.

    I wonder if belief in Garabandal and whatever the other false apparitions Williamson promotes are also required for salvation.
    Right?  Could you imagine if this was Father Cekada or Bishop Sanborn?  :laugh1:

    On a serious note, however....is it possible that there is something seriously wrong with Bishop Williamson (cognitively speaking)? These comments seem totally imbalanced.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #118 on: August 10, 2023, 05:35:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on August 10, 2023, 05:26:17 PM
    Right?  Could you imagine if this was Father Cekada or Bishop Sanborn?  :laugh1:

    On a serious note, however....is it possible that there is something seriously wrong with Bishop Williamson (cognitively speaking)? These comments seem totally imbalanced.


    I agree and actually that is a charitable interpretation.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"
    « Reply #119 on: August 10, 2023, 05:36:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on August 10, 2023, 04:44:44 PM
    He should reconcile with the conciliar church since he believes that it’s “mass” is not only valid, but actually is to be highly lauded since it produces miracles.

    I have no exact quote, but it’s easily deduced from his staunch opinion that miracles are produced by it. Logically, it must be good and holy since God would never allow miracles to come from something that is not good and unholy.

    Well, regarding just the issue validity for a moment, the SSPX and +ABL always maintained that the New Mass is valid. Does that in itself mean that whoever believes in the validity of the New Mass should reconcile with Rome? If that's the case, then maybe the SSPX should have reconciled long ago?

    I'm not sure that God wouldn't allow miracles from something unholy. How about all of the martyrs that suffered torture and death, often put to death by pagans or heretics, who were doing evil in killing Catholics. Yet good came from those martyrs; not only did some of their tormentors and killers convert, miracles were sometimes attributed to the intercession of the martyrs.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29
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