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Author Topic: Bsp. Williamson: "Belief in N.O. Eucharistic Miracles Necessary for Holy Oils"  (Read 19642 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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  • Your "explanation" was clearly false.  Here Bishop Williamson explicitly states that he would give him the Holy Oils on the condition that he publicly came out and assented to the legitimacy of "several" NO "Eucharistic miracles".  There are no other conditions laid out.

    Then you are schizophrenic, as you previously acknowledged (in post #47):

    "+Williamson had other reasons for not wanting to help out Father Hewko besides the stated reason of his not accepting NO Eucharistic miracles ... at least according to Sean's reading of it.  If that's the only reason, his stated reason, then I think many of us would have a problem with effectively dogmatizing something like miracles and private revelations."
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • Let's not make it a battle of interpretations.

    I sent +Williamson the following email, and if he responds, I will post his reply:


    Greetings Your Lordship-

    Last week, Fr. Hewko published an email correspondence between him and yourself which contained the following passage:

    “Reverend,

    When you deny the genuinely scientific evidence in favor of miracles taking place at Novus Ordo Masses said by Novus Ordo priests consecrated by Novus Ordo bishops, such as happened in Sokolka, Poland, in 2008, you are not living in the same world or Church as I am.

    Please resort to any bishop who shares your own attitude towards reality. Please do not ask me again for Oils for as long as you are defying reality.”


    Some online commentators are construing Your Lordship’s words as requiring belief in Novus Ordo miracles as a prerequisite for the reception of holy oils, while others are saying this is simply Your Lordship’s way of telling Fr. Hewko to buzz off (not just because of disagreement on this issue, but 10 others over the years as well), by requiring a condition Your Lordship knows he won’t accept.

    In this matter, the Hewkonians have found an ally in the sedevacantists, since both consider Novus Ordo miracles impossible (the sedes, because they allege the Mass is per se invalid; the Hewkonians because they think it would mean God is endorsing the new Mass).

    A second issue of complaint stemming from Your Lordship’s words to Fr. Hewko is that Your Lordship is morally obligated to give oils to him (or any other renegade priest on the planet, regardless of his positions, for the good of their faithful), or it is tantamount to “weaponizing” the sacraments.

    May I request an additional comment from Your Lordship to clarify your thoughts on:

      -Whether belief in Novus Ordo miracles is required in order to receive holy oils;
      -A response to those who say Your Lordship is required to give oils to anyone who requests them

    Semper Idem,
    Sean Johnson



    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Seraphina

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  • From a former Hewkonian:

    22.  As we have been manipulated by Fathers Pfeiffer and  Hewko to think of and label Bishop Williamson and his flock of faithful sheep as the “fake and false Resistance”, the damage has been great to the Catholic Resistance at large.  The terms “fake and false Resistance” were devised in order to control the faithful in a propaganda campaign against the Bishop Williamson enemies of the so called “true Resistance”.  We have been deceived and divided by what can be argued as a personal battle between the leaders of Boston, Kentucky and their adherents with those who follow Bishop Williamson as their leader.  This has been devastating to the Resistance fight for the Catholic Faith. When will Father Hewko do the right thing, and repair the damage that he has caused?”

    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/problems-questions-and-considerations-regarding-fr-hewko/
    Here are the souls being harmed, those who depend upon Fr. Hewko for Sacraments, specifically Extreme Unction and Baptism.  Can these souls be saved without the Holy Oils?  Yes, of course.  Our Lord can save whom He Wills.  Surely He saved the souls of numerous Japanese Catholics during the period of geopolitical persecution and isolation.  
    It’s unfortunate, but there are now people who are more or less trapped so far as “following” Fr. Hewko.  This is why God does not intend Catholics to operate like Protestants!  The adults can swallow their pride and return to the SSPX or other places, but enough time has passed that there are children who’ve grown up knowing no other “church” save the Mass whose priest they “follow.”  
    Should Bp. W. give oils for the sake of these?  I think so, but apparently His Excellency thinks not.  
    The very fact that there are six, going on seven pages of discussion on CI of this matter, a forum whose members are not dependent upon Fr. Hewko for Mass and Sacraments proves that souls are in harm’s way.  
    No, Bp. W. is NOT obliged to give oils to every crazy person who asks. The question here is whether Fr. Hewko is a crazy person.  

    Offline Meg

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  • A second issue of complaint stemming from Your Lordship’s words to Fr. Hewko is that Your Lordship is morally obligated to give oils to him (or any other renegade priest on the planet, regardless of his positions, for the good of their faithful), or it is tantamount to “weaponizing” the sacraments.

    That's the question, IMO. Is +W required to provide holy oils for anyone who asks for them? What does Church teaching say about this?

    Is there really not any other bishop in the whole world who can provide holy oils? How about sedevacantist bishops? It seems to me that some of the forum members who are critical of +W's stance of not providing holy oils to Fr. Hewko can ask their bishops to provide oils. But maybe this is too good an opportunity to bash +W for yet another "outrage" against Tradition and all traditionalists (in their opinion). And of course the Hewkonians are going to milk this for all its worth. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • Here are the souls being harmed, those who depend upon Fr. Hewko for Sacraments, specifically Extreme Unction and Baptism.  Can these souls be saved without the Holy Oils?  Yes, of course.  Our Lord can save whom He Wills.  Surely He saved the souls of numerous Japanese Catholics during the period of geopolitical persecution and isolation. 
    It’s unfortunate, but there are now people who are more or less trapped so far as “following” Fr. Hewko.  This is why God does not intend Catholics to operate like Protestants!  The adults can swallow their pride and return to the SSPX or other places, but enough time has passed that there are children who’ve grown up knowing no other “church” save the Mass whose priest they “follow.” 
    Should Bp. W. give oils for the sake of these?  I think so, but apparently His Excellency thinks not. 
    The very fact that there are six, going on seven pages of discussion on CI of this matter, a forum whose members are not dependent upon Fr. Hewko for Mass and Sacraments proves that souls are in harm’s way. 
    No, Bp. W. is NOT obliged to give oils to every crazy person who asks. The question here is whether Fr. Hewko is a crazy person. 

    Firstly, nobody depends upon Fr. Hewko for sacraments:  

    His “faithful” are perfectly content to go years without any sacraments (in order to be “faithful!”). 

    There are validly ordained priests all around them whom they could approach, but they choose not to.

    As for the length of the thread getting stretched by those not “dependent” upon Hewko for sacraments, I would say firstly that you are deceived regarding the identity of some of this thread’s posters, and secondly that it is their preference for Hewko which is placing them in harm’s way, and not the fact that Williamson won’t facilitate that poisoned ministry:

    Was it not Hewko himself who sold his “faithful” that stupid bill of goods by which they must shun all other clergy but himself (eg., red-lighting SSPX Mass attendance, etc.)?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline rosarytrad

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  • He said what?  When and where?  Maybe he had the wrong Teresa? 
    Here is the sermon, his comment begins at the 11 minute mark: 
    The mercies of the Lord I will sing for ever. - Ps. 88:2a
    St. Anthony of Padua, pray for us.
    St. John of God, pray for us.
    Our Lady of Guadalupe, mystical rose, make intercession for Holy Church.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • Let's not make it a battle of interpretations.

    I sent +Williamson the following email, and if he responds, I will post his reply:


    Greetings Your Lordship-

    Last week, Fr. Hewko published an email correspondence between him and yourself which contained the following passage:

    “Reverend,

    When you deny the genuinely scientific evidence in favor of miracles taking place at Novus Ordo Masses said by Novus Ordo priests consecrated by Novus Ordo bishops, such as happened in Sokolka, Poland, in 2008, you are not living in the same world or Church as I am.

    Please resort to any bishop who shares your own attitude towards reality. Please do not ask me again for Oils for as long as you are defying reality.”


    Some online commentators are construing Your Lordship’s words as requiring belief in Novus Ordo miracles as a prerequisite for the reception of holy oils, while others are saying this is simply Your Lordship’s way of telling Fr. Hewko to buzz off (not just because of disagreement on this issue, but 10 others over the years as well), by requiring a condition Your Lordship knows he won’t accept.

    In this matter, the Hewkonians have found an ally in the sedevacantists, since both consider Novus Ordo miracles impossible (the sedes, because they allege the Mass is per se invalid; the Hewkonians because they think it would mean God is endorsing the new Mass).

    A second issue of complaint stemming from Your Lordship’s words to Fr. Hewko is that Your Lordship is morally obligated to give oils to him (or any other renegade priest on the planet, regardless of his positions, for the good of their faithful), or it is tantamount to “weaponizing” the sacraments.

    May I request an additional comment from Your Lordship to clarify your thoughts on:

      -Whether belief in Novus Ordo miracles is required in order to receive holy oils;
      -A response to those who say Your Lordship is required to give oils to anyone who requests them

    Semper Idem,
    Sean Johnson


    +Williamson responds:


    Dear Sean,

    It is clear and repeated denial of true scientific evidence which renders anyone guilty of one of the unforgivable sins against the Holy Ghost. Let anybody in doubt look them up.

    Common sense says that precious gifts of God should hardly be handed out to people hardly able to appreciate reality.


    God bless, BpW.


    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Deipara

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  • +Williamson responds:


    Dear Sean,

    It is clear and repeated denial of true scientific evidence which renders anyone guilty of one of the unforgivable sins against the Holy Ghost. Let anybody in doubt look them up.

    Common sense says that precious gifts of God should hardly be handed out to people hardly able to appreciate reality.


    God bless, BpW.
    Sounds an awful lot like Fr. Paul Robinson touting the 'scientific evidence' behind the Big Bang.
    In the most recent Kolbe report, highlighting Fr. Robinson emphasizing the "science" over the supernatural (this report was posted here but I can't find it now):


    Presenting what he purports to be scientific data, Fr. Robinson asserts that Reason is not to be ignored and, thus, insists we must reject Genesis as traditionally understood. It is true that “faith and reason can never come into conflict.” But the reasoning must be sound. The theories Fr. Robinson promotes do contradict the text of Genesis, and also the Church Fathers and Doctors. The problem, however, is not with the words of Moses and tradition, but with the theories The Realist Guide promotes.

    Ironically, even the local bishop at Sokółka won't absolutely declare this a true miracle but simple concludes "The case of Sokółka does not contradict the faith of the Church, but rather confirms it.” More Novus Ordo ambiguity.

    Are the phony miracles associated with the canonizations of Paul VI 'scientific' and therefore belief in them grounds for receiving Holy Oils?  Where does one draw the line with Novus Ordo miracles?  It is clear that this is completely arbitrary on Bp. Williamson's part.







    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • Sounds an awful lot like Fr. Paul Robinson touting the 'scientific evidence' behind the Big Bang.
    In the most recent Kolbe report, highlighting Fr. Robinson emphasizing the "science" over the supernatural (this report was posted here but I can't find it now):


    Presenting what he purports to be scientific data, Fr. Robinson asserts that Reason is not to be ignored and, thus, insists we must reject Genesis as traditionally understood. It is true that “faith and reason can never come into conflict.” But the reasoning must be sound. The theories Fr. Robinson promotes do contradict the text of Genesis, and also the Church Fathers and Doctors. The problem, however, is not with the words of Moses and tradition, but with the theories The Realist Guide promotes.

    Ironically, even the local bishop at Sokółka won't absolutely declare this a true miracle but simple concludes "The case of Sokółka does not contradict the faith of the Church, but rather confirms it.” More Novus Ordo ambiguity.

    Are the phony miracles associated with the canonizations of Paul VI 'scientific' and therefore belief in them grounds for receiving Holy Oils?  Where does one draw the line with Novus Ordo miracles?  It is clear that this is completely arbitrary on Bp. Williamson's part.




    https://media.giphy.com/media/3o6YglDndxKdCNw7q8/giphy.gif




    "The Chewbacca Defense is a legal strategy in which a criminal defense lawyer tries to confuse the jury rather than refute the case of the prosecutor. It is an intentional distraction or obfuscation.2 The defense dates back to the 1998 episode of South Park, "Chef Aid," where a parody of legendary lawyer Johnnie Cochran defends his clients by talking about how Chewbacca, an 8-foot-tall Wookie, "lives on the planet Endor." It is a way of "winning" a debate through methods other than logic and reasoned argument."
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Seraphina

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  • Firstly, nobody depends upon Fr. Hewko for sacraments: 

    His “faithful” are perfectly content to go years without any sacraments (in order to be “faithful!”).

    There are validly ordained priests all around them whom they could approach, but they choose not to.

    As for the length of the thread getting stretched by those not “dependent” upon Hewko for sacraments, I would say firstly that you are deceived regarding the identity of some of this thread’s posters, and secondly that it is their preference for Hewko which is placing them in harm’s way, and not the fact that Williamson won’t facilitate that poisoned ministry:

    Was it not Hewko himself who sold his “faithful” that stupid bill of goods by which they must shun all other clergy but himself (eg., red-lighting SSPX Mass attendance, etc.)?
    I guess the situation has deteriorated beyond what I imagined.  I knew Fr. Hewko when he was still with the Society and for a few years afterward, but haven’t attended a Mass or had any personal contact since he was still in Boston, KY.  That situation with the warlock was very bad.  I separated myself from it and everyone who had anything to do with it in 2015.  
    So far as I know, Fr. H. has never issued an apology or official retraction of the years he spent under Fr. Pf. and his warlock sidekick.  
    So the Hewkoites would become home-aloners if something should happen to Fr. Hewko?  Does Fr. Hewko refuse Sacraments to people based upon them attending either his or Fr. Ruiz’s Mass?  Where do they hear Mass if he’s away?  They don’t go?  If so, that’s not good.  What about Confirmation?  Where do Hewkoites go for Confirmation?  What will they do when he finds his property for his “seminary?” Is everyone planning to move?   (Most unwise if there is no bishop!)   
    The entire situation isn’t good at all.  I feel badly for the children and possibly dependent elderly/disabled dragged into it.  These are the souls I’d consider in danger.  If any of these is deprived of the Sacraments, Bp. W. won’t be held responsible, however.  God will primarily charge the heads of the families with the punishments in Purgatory or, God forbid, loss, of souls.  

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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  • +Williamson responds:


    Dear Sean,

    It is clear and repeated denial of true scientific evidence which renders anyone guilty of one of the unforgivable sins against the Holy Ghost. Let anybody in doubt look them up.

    Common sense says that precious gifts of God should hardly be handed out to people hardly able to appreciate reality.


    God bless, BpW.
    I have a feeling that the same people who attack "dogmatic sedevacantists" will defend Bp. Williamson's new dogma and his anathema of all sedevacantists and others who believe God wouldn't approve the Bogus Ordo by miracles.

    I wonder if belief in Garabandal and whatever the other false apparitions Williamson promotes are also required for salvation.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • I have a feeling that the same people who attack "dogmatic sedevacantists" will defend Bp. Williamson's new dogma and his anathema of all sedevacantists and others who believe God wouldn't approve the Bogus Ordo by miracles.

    I wonder if belief in Garabandal and whatever the other false apparitions Williamson promotes are also required for salvation.

    Of course you do.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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  • I have a feeling that the same people who attack "dogmatic sedevacantists" will defend Bp. Williamson's new dogma and his anathema of all sedevacantists and others who believe God wouldn't approve the Bogus Ordo by miracles.

    I wonder if belief in Garabandal and whatever the other false apparitions Williamson promotes are also required for salvation.
    I'd also like to add that it is related in Our Lady of Fatima by W. T. Walsh that most of the priests initially rejected the apparitions. Were they sinning against the Holy Ghost? Who'd dare say such a thing?

    Bp. Williamson's statement is so outrageous I believe he might change his mind.

    Does he even realize how many souls he declared lost?

    Offline Angelus

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    Online gladius_veritatis

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  • "The Chewbacca Defense is a legal strategy in which a criminal defense lawyer tries to confuse the jury rather than refute the case of the prosecutor. It is an intentional distraction or obfuscation.2 The defense dates back to the 1998 episode of South Park, "Chef Aid," where a parody of legendary lawyer Johnnie Cochran defends his clients by talking about how Chewbacca, an 8-foot-tall Wookie, "lives on the planet Endor." It is a way of "winning" a debate through methods other than logic and reasoned argument."

    While humorous and entertaining, one could argue that +Williamson, not those who oppose his stance, is Cochran in this matter.

    Denying unsettled -- i.e., disputed -- "scientific evidence" is a sin against the Holy Ghost?  Sounds eerily similar to the nonsense that was just shoved down the world's throat in connection to Cooties-19.  So be it.  Godspeed to all. 
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."