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Author Topic: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism  (Read 28596 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
« Reply #65 on: June 24, 2024, 10:44:42 AM »
History shows us that there have been multiple papal crisis  over the centuries.  With saints on both sides.  Our time is more extreme but the parallels remain the same.  

R&R has its issues but so do the many flavors of Sedeism.  The new-sspx has given R&R a bad name because they cozy up to new-rome.  But classical R&R (ie ABL and Fr Chazal) makes much sense.  

Dogmatic Sedeism is extreme and dangerous too.  But moderate sede-privationsim makes a lot of sense and has the most theological/doctrinal proofs.  Yet…most Sedes aren’t dogmatic, nor are they privationist.  Somewhere in the middle.  

Moral of the story - even though people like to reduce and over-simplify the fight to 2 camps (a very American/sports thing to do), the reality is that the hypotheses of the Papal crisis are many and varied.  Which makes things much more complex to debate.  

Anyone who says it’s R&R vs Sedeism is just ignoring the many, many details involved.
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Offline Giovanni Berto

Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
« Reply #66 on: June 24, 2024, 10:56:57 AM »
The impression that I have is that after Abp. Lefebvre formally left the SSPX leadership (1984 I think) and specially after the 1988 consecrations, the ruling party (Fr. Schmidberger, Bp. Fellay and company) developed the "dialogue Papacy" theory, along with dogmatic anti-Sedevacantism and blind obedience to the superiors.

This allowed them to keep the group's unity, but at great price.

Abp. Lefebvre was clearly not anti-Sedevacantist, as it can be seen on his commentaries on the 1986 Assisi scandal. His position on the crisis was not the one that the SSPX adopted after his death, and I think that this change happened long before the "2012 shift".
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Offline Meg

Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
« Reply #67 on: June 24, 2024, 02:15:22 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on June 24, 2024, 10:18:18 AM
If you want to say, "I don't know." or "Not sure.", that's fine.  But when you dogmatically continue to assert that the Papacy can wreck the Church, that Catholics are permitted to break communion with the Pope in defiance of his Magisterium, that the Church can promulgate a Protestant "bastard" write of Mass that harms souls and may be invalid ... that's when you've crossed the line.  If you want to compare the ear lobes of Montini 1 and Montini 2, or posit that Montini was drugged or blackmailed for sodomy (not impossible actually), then go for it.  Please just stop promoting these non-Catholic and heretical notions regarding the nature of the Church and of the papacy.

So, you will allow traditional Catholics to say that they don't know, or they're not sure, but you will not allow them to believe that Francis is the Pope. Is that correct? Because, after all, you are the sole arbiter of all that is truly Catholic; given that you are more special, and far more intelligent, than pretty much anyone here. At least that's the impression that's been given. 
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
« Reply #68 on: June 24, 2024, 04:24:44 PM »
Quote from: Meg on June 24, 2024, 02:15:22 PM
So, you will allow traditional Catholics to say that they don't know, or they're not sure, but you will not allow them to believe that Francis is the Pope. Is that correct? Because, after all, you are the sole arbiter of all that is truly Catholic; given that you are more special, and far more intelligent, than pretty much anyone here. At least that's the impression that's been given.

More of your idiotic bullshit.  Obviously what I mean is that I'm not going to "allow" is from an argumentation standpoint.  You can blabber whatever heresies you want.  I have no authority to excommunicate you, as much as you deserve it and I'd love to do so, nor am I the forum moderator, where I can even ban you for heresy, which would be warranted.  So carry on blathering your heresies, knowing full well that you'll be judged by God for them.

If I had the ability to not allow you to spout your nonsense, why is it that you continue to carry on for years with it?
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
« Reply #69 on: June 24, 2024, 04:27:30 PM »
Quote from: Giovanni Berto on June 24, 2024, 10:56:57 AM
The impression that I have is that after Abp. Lefebvre formally left the SSPX leadership (1984 I think) and specially after the 1988 consecrations, the ruling party (Fr. Schmidberger, Bp. Fellay and company) developed the "dialogue Papacy" theory, along with dogmatic anti-Sedevacantism and blind obedience to the superiors.

This allowed them to keep the group's unity, but at great price.

Abp. Lefebvre was clearly not anti-Sedevacantist, as it can be seen on his commentaries on the 1986 Assisi scandal. His position on the crisis was not the one that the SSPX adopted after his death, and I think that this change happened long before the "2012 shift".

This makes sense. No, except for a period of time in the early 1980s, he was not anti-SV.  He just wouldn't commit to it.  He was quite open to it in the 1970s and then from about 1985/6 on, as you pointed out.
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