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Author Topic: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism  (Read 27240 times)

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Offline Catholic Knight

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So the absurd Bennyvacantist dopes are trying to judge the internal forum, claiming that Jorge meant it but that Ratzinger really didn't.

What you repeatedly fail to understand is that the judgment of the internal forum BASED on the acts presented in the external forum is what constitutes the basis for a human judgment on the formal sin of heresy.

Offline Ladislaus

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What you repeatedly fail to understand is that the judgment of the internal forum BASED on the acts presented in the external forum is what constitutes the basis for a human judgment on the formal sin of heresy.

It's all subjectivist nonsense.  "It's clearly from [magical "indicia"] that Jorge really means it, but Ratzinger didn't."  It can't get more absurd.

This is subjectivist nonsense based on the fact that Jorge is a more flamboyant and open heretic.

But, if anything it's the other way around.  Unlike Jorge, Ratzinger is no dummy.  He knows exactly what he's saying and he knows very well he's contradicting florence, whereas Jorge is an intellectual pygmy by comparison to Ratzinger and could be excused with ignorance or plain stupidity.  Ratzinger knew what he was doing, knew that it contradicted Florence, and repeatedly taught it anway.


Offline Catholic Knight

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It's all subjectivist nonsense.  "It's clearly from [magical "indicia"] that Jorge really means it, but Ratzinger didn't."  It can't get more absurd.

This is subjectivist nonsense based on the fact that Jorge is a more flamboyant and open heretic.

But, if anything it's the other way around.  Unlike Jorge, Ratzinger is no dummy.  He knows exactly what he's saying and he knows very well he's contradicting florence, whereas Jorge is an intellectual pygmy by comparison to Ratzinger and could be excused with ignorance or plain stupidity.  Ratzinger knew what he was doing, knew that it contradicted Florence, and repeatedly taught it anway.

Joseph Ratzinger's hermeneutic of continuity, which defined his pontificate, is strong evidence that he had no intention of breaking with the Church's teachings that must be believed with Divine and Catholic Faith.  Therefore, pertinacity, which constitutes the form of the sin of heresy, is difficult to demonstrate with moral certitude.

Offline Giovanni Berto

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Joseph Ratzinger's hermeneutic of continuity, which defined his pontificate, is strong evidence that he had no intention of breaking with the Church's teachings that must be believed with Divine and Catholic Faith.  Therefore, pertinacity, which constitutes the form of the sin of heresy, is difficult to demonstrate with moral certitude.

Ratzinger/Benedict XVI was a pre-conciliar theologian. This means that the did serious studies. I think that it is highly creative to imagine that he did not know that he was proposing and teaching things that were contrary to the faith.

He was highly intelligent and qualified. He knew very well what he was doing.

When we read the Moral Theology manuals, we see that the requirements for mortal sin are not so high. You don't have to have a deep moral knowledge to commit a mortal sin. Yet, when some people talk about conciliar Popes and heresy, the bar is set so high that it is almost possible to say that Luther was not a heretic.

Possibly excluding John XXIII, all of the conciliar Popes heard repeated warnings that they were going against the Faith, yet, they all continued on their wicked ways. Can they be excused? I honestly don't see how it is possible.

Online Pax Vobis

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Therefore, pertinacity, which constitutes the form of the sin of heresy, is difficult to demonstrate with moral certitude.
:facepalm:  Only the church can decide pertinacity, in regards to formal/sinful heresy.  Even Martin Luther was given a trial by the Church. 

Your arm-chair decisions against Francis, and for Benedict, have no moral certitude what.so.ever. 

The idea that keep pushing, that catholics can decide the heretical status of the pope (or anyone) is protestant-like "interpretation".

p.s.  The openness/flamboyance of Francis vs the quiet/stealth-ness of Benedict are irrelevant to heresy.  (No one was more flamboyant in error than JP2...I assume you're to young to remember).  Crafty/subtle heresy is just as damning as Loud/proud heresy.  John23/Benedict are the former.  Paul6/JP2/Francis are the later.


Offline Ladislaus

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p.s.  The openness/flamboyance of Francis vs the quiet/stealth-ness of Benedict are irrelevant to heresy.  (No one was more flamboyant in error than JP2...I assume you're to young to remember).  Crafty/subtle heresy is just as damning as Loud/proud heresy.  John23/Benedict are the former.  Paul6/JP2/Francis are the later.

I actually hold that craft/subtle hereys is much more dangerous and pernicious.  You're not going to get someone to swallow a spoonful of poison.  But if you diguise it in a spoonful of sugar, it's much easier to get people to swallow it.  Most Catholics of good will can reject the heresies/errors of Bergoglio, but many have bought those of "Saint" John Paul II the Great Wojtyla ... due to his greatness and sanctity.

Offline Catholic Knight

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:facepalm:  Only the church can decide pertinacity, in regards to formal/sinful heresy.

You don't know what you are writing about.  Leaving aside latae sententiae excommunication for heresy, only the Church can judge in a canonical trial that one is guilty of the DELICT of heresy and impose that judgment on the consciences of the faithful.  HOWEVER, that Church judgment must be based on the SIN of heresy.  If there is no sin, there can be no delict.  Whether one has committed the SIN of heresy is determined by his external acts of heresy.  These external acts can be observed AND be judged as a SIN by anyone IF there is sufficient evidence to attain moral certitude.  In this case, it would be a private judgment that cannot be imposed on another under pain of sin.  HOWEVER, if the other becomes convinced of the same, then his own conscience would bind him.

Online Pax Vobis

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You don't know what you are writing about.  Leaving aside latae sententiae excommunication for heresy, only the Church can judge in a canonical trial that one is guilty of the DELICT of heresy and impose that judgment on the consciences of the faithful.  HOWEVER, that Church judgment must be based on the SIN of heresy.  If there is no sin, there can be no delict.
Right, this is where the Church corrects one who espouses error (i.e. material heresy)...if they persist (i.e. are pernicious in error) in error, then they are judged guilty of sin/formal heresy.


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Whether one has committed the SIN of heresy is determined by his external acts of heresy.  These external acts can be observed AND be judged as a SIN by anyone IF there is sufficient evidence to attain moral certitude.
Absolutely not.  One can judge the external forum to decide if a person is wrong/in error (i.e. materially wrong).  For an individual to judge another guilty of sin, one would be judging their internal motives that this isn't allowed, based on charity.  The Church is the only judge of this.

Also, no one but the Church can claim moral certitude.  Because She's the teacher of humanity.  Individuals can only claim moral certitude IF...they follow rules/laws which the Church has laid down.

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In this case, it would be a private judgment that cannot be imposed on another under pain of sin.
And private judgement is worthless, except to warn the individual to avoid person a, b or c (i.e. a person who speaks error/material heresy).  But as to the question of formal heresy, no private person can have 'moral certitude' about that.

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HOWEVER, if the other becomes convinced of the same, then his own conscience would bind him.
But this solves nothing, except creates the protestant problem of "individuality" and "private judgement".  The whole point of Catholicism is to oppose such things and to tell everyone that "if the Church has (or hasn't spoken), then the case is decided."  When the case hasn't been decided, then it's up for debate.


Offline Catholic Knight

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Absolutely not.  One can judge the external forum to decide if a person is wrong/in error (i.e. materially wrong).  For an individual to judge another guilty of sin, one would be judging their internal motives that this isn't allowed, based on charity.  The Church is the only judge of this.

Here you go again stating that only the Church can judge one guilty of sin.  We argued this point on another thread a while ago and you were not able to provide any evidence from Church teaching or moral theology of your assertion.

The Baltimore Catechism of 1891 teaches us the following:

“Question:  What is rash judgement?
“Answer:  Rash judgment is believing a person guilty of sin without a sufficient cause.”

Fr. Dominic M. Prummer, O.P., in his Handbook of Moral Theology, No. 301, teaches us the following:

“Rash judgment is the firm assent of the mind (whether manifested externally or not) to the existence of sin in another without sufficient reason.”

Note that both the Baltimore Catechism and Fr. Prummer place a qualifier that makes one guilty of rash judgment, that is, without a sufficient cause or reason.  However, what if one does have a sufficient cause or reason?  Then he is not guilty of rash judgment.

Fr. Thomas Slater, S.J., in his A Manual of Moral Theology, Page 285, is more direct:

“It is no sin to think that another is wicked or has committed a sin if we know it to be a fact.”

The following is from Fr. Paul Kramer's Volume I of To Deceive the Elect:

“The opinion that only the Church authorities are able to judge in matters of heresy, and that we cannot know if someone is a heretic by the application of human reason without a pronouncement of Church authority, is patently absurd, since it is by the application of human reason to the matters of faith that ecclesiastical judges reach their conclusions in heresy cases and pronounce judgment.”

Pax Vobis, your assertion is of your own invention.

Offline Catholic Knight

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“Jorge Bergoglio is absolutely and most certainly a manifest formal heretic – one who has publicly defected from the Catholic faith. In conscience one has the right to make such a judgment because it is a legitimate matter of conscience, and can be known with certitude. All the canons, and teachings against privately judging superiors and prelates do not refer to judgments of conscience, such as the judgment concerning the manifest heresy of one’s superior, when it can be known with certitude; but rather, they prohibit judgments that require jurisdiction; and explain that private individuals do not possess the requisite jurisdiction for rendering an official judgment, and therefore they may not presume to judge their superiors juridically, and depose them with force of law. However, the right of conscience to judge privately as a matter of conscience in such cases as that of manifest heresy pertains to divine law, since such judgments of conscience are sometimes necessary for salvation;”
Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.

Offline Catholic Knight

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    “If the heresy and its pertinacity are manifest or at least apparent without evidence to the contrary, then private individuals have the right to prudently judge privately and state their private opinions in a prudent manner even in public; but as private individuals they may not presume to judge in any official capacity. It is because the loss of office takes place ex natura hæresis, according to divine law, and therefore takes place independently of any ecclesiastical law or act of jurisdiction, that the individual has the right in conscience to form an opinion even before a judgment is pronounced by Church authority."
    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope. Kindle Edition.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    “The word ‘manifest’ means, ‘clear or obvious to the eye or mind’. If not only the matter of heresy is clearly manifest, but the conscious and wilful profession of ‘a doctrine that immediately, directly, and contradictorily opposes the truths revealed by God and authentically set forth as such by the Church,’ is patently obvious to the mind, then the person who professes it may be judged by others to be a heretic, even without a juridical pronouncement of the Church, since no one needs any official declaration to be made in order to form a judgment of opinion on a matter that by its very nature is already ‘clear or obvious to the eye or mind’. The proposition that one is not a manifest heretic until an ecclesiastical judge pronounces that one is a manifest heretic is absurd on its face, since by the very fact that the heresy is manifest, it is already ‘clear or obvious to the eye or mind’ before any judgment is pronounced; yet this is precisely the silliness that John Salza and Robert Siscoe maintain in their rabid legalism. However, it is clearly the doctrine of the Catholic faith that if a person is a manifest heretic, then it is manifest that heresy has suapte natura severed that one from the body of the Church, and if he is a holder of ecclesiastical office, he has ipso jure automatically lost office and all habitual or ordinary jurisdiction ex natura hæresis, before any sentence is pronounced by the Church. Since the loss of office for public defection from the faith was prescribed in the 1917 Code to take place ipso facto and ‘without any declaration’, and it remains that way in the 1983 Code; it is absurd for anyone to claim that the faithful must wait for a declaration from Church authorities before judging in conscience on an ipso jure loss of office that takes place ‘without any declaration’; and that until a judgment be pronounced by competent authority, they need to and must remain subject to a heretic pope and to a vast portion of the hierarchy who have visibly expelled themselves from the body of the Church; while those pastors who remain faithful, and who are competent to judge, are either too blind or too frightened to speak.”
    Kramer, Paul. To Deceive the Elect: The Catholic Doctrine on the Question of a Heretical Pope (Kindle Locations 11174-11182). Kindle Edition.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Here you go again stating that only the Church can judge one guilty of sin.
    In regards to the sin of heresy, yes, only the Church can judge this, by a formal investigation.  Everyone else can judge that a person is WRONG or in ERROR. 

    Offline Meg

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  • You don't know what you are writing about.  Leaving aside latae sententiae excommunication for heresy, only the Church can judge in a canonical trial that one is guilty of the DELICT of heresy and impose that judgment on the consciences of the faithful.  HOWEVER, that Church judgment must be based on the SIN of heresy.  If there is no sin, there can be no delict.  Whether one has committed the SIN of heresy is determined by his external acts of heresy.  These external acts can be observed AND be judged as a SIN by anyone IF there is sufficient evidence to attain moral certitude.  In this case, it would be a private judgment that cannot be imposed on another under pain of sin.  HOWEVER, if the other becomes convinced of the same, then his own conscience would bind him.

    Yes, the Church judges that one is guilty of the delict (crime) of heresy, as is stated in the Vatican's online "norms regarding delicts reserved to the congregation for the doctrine of the faith."

    This docuмent, in Art 1 and 2, states, "The delicts against the Faith mentioned in art. 1 are for heresy, apostasy, and schism, according to the norms of Cann. 751, 1364, CIC, and cann. 1436 and 1437 CCEO."

    I couldn't find anywhere in this docuмent which states that (as you state above) that "If there is no sin, there is no heresy." Nor could I find where it states that "these external acts can be observed and judged as sin by anyone IF there is sufficient evidence to attain moral certitude," I also couldn't find anything about one's conscience being binding if one is convinced of the same.

    Norms regarding delicts reserved to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (11 October 2021) (vatican.va)

    The above link probably won't work, since I've not been able to copy any Vatican online docuмents, but I provide the link so that the title can be searched for. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline MarcelJude

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