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Author Topic: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism  (Read 28537 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
« Reply #215 on: July 14, 2024, 09:22:40 PM »
Quote from: Catholic Knight on July 12, 2024, 12:21:34 PM
Laudislaus, you cannot be morally certain, according to Pax Vobis, that they are antipopes.  Only the Church can decide, according to Pax Vobis.

I can be morally certain that he's not Pope, but not dogmatically certain, but in no case can my certainty (regardless of the degree) remove him from office.  That's the entire point of sedeprivationism.
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Offline Catholic Knight

Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
« Reply #216 on: July 16, 2024, 06:55:29 AM »
Quote from: pnw1994 on July 14, 2024, 08:21:52 PM
I think a question of equal merit, to piggyback off of Pax Vobis, would be:

When has Francis, by word or deed, professed a heresy that his conciliar predecessors Benedict XVI and JP2 and Paul VI etc, did NOT also profess? Are you able to provide specific examples?

Professing a heresy is in itself is not sufficient to warrant the public sin of manifest formal heresy.  There must also be pertinacity.  I do not hold that the conciliar popes have been pertinacious, whereas antipope Jorge Bergoglio is pertinacious.
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Offline Catholic Knight

Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
« Reply #217 on: July 16, 2024, 06:58:46 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on July 14, 2024, 09:20:53 PM
So which one is it ...

1) not pope because he wasn't validly elected?
2) not pope because of public heresy?

Those two are mutually exclusive.  If he wasn't validly elected, then he couldn't be ipso facto deposed on account of heresy, since there's nothing for him to be deposed from.  If he was deposed for public heresy, then that presumes he was valid in the first place.

This demonstrates again that you just don't want Jorge to be the pope, but want the pre-Bergoglians to be legitimate, and so you come up with whatever reason you want to throw at the wall to make him a non-pope.

There's no heresy other than that in Amoris Laetitia that his predecessors did not also hold and in fact originated.  Period.

I am not certain that Jorge Bergoglio was a public manifest formal heretic prior to the 2013 conclave.  I know that Archbishop Vigano holds that he was indeed one.  However, I have not looked into this question sufficiently myself.  What I am certain of, however, is that Benedict XVI did not validly renounce his office, so he remained pope until his death on December 31. 2022.
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Offline Catholic Knight

Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
« Reply #218 on: July 16, 2024, 07:02:05 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on July 14, 2024, 09:22:40 PM
I can be morally certain that he's not Pope, but not dogmatically certain, but in no case can my certainty (regardless of the degree) remove him from office.  That's the entire point of sedeprivationism.

Your moral certitude does not remove Jorge Bergoglio from office.  This is true.  However, you have made a judgment based on sufficient evidence, and therefore you reject his authority.  Sedeprivationism holds that Jorge Bergoglio holds some claim to the office.  This is where I disagree.  He holds no claim to the office.  That he has a sign on his door indicating "pope" is purely accidental.
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Offline Catholic Knight

Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
« Reply #219 on: July 16, 2024, 07:04:55 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 12, 2024, 12:02:46 PM
It can only be morally certain, when the Church says so.  Before then, it's just an opinion.

I have been waiting months for your proof that only the Church can attain moral certitude that one has committed the public sin of manifest formal heresy.  All I have heard so far is crickets.
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