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Author Topic: Bp. Zendejas - Chrism Mass 2019 Sermon  (Read 2349 times)

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Offline Stanley N

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Re: Baptism
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2020, 12:32:40 AM »
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  • usually in baptist baptisms (at the least all of the ones i’ve ever seen) the “minister” recites the form, and then dunks the person in the water right after he finishes talking.  is that a potential validity issue since technically the minister isn’t administering water “while” reciting the words?
    I have two reference manuals for sacramental moral theology.

    Since neither even mention what you are asking, I would think a moral union of the water and the words is good for an immersion baptism.

    Offline Venantius0518

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    Re: Bp. Zendejas - Chrism Mass 2019 Sermon
    « Reply #16 on: July 16, 2020, 07:33:35 AM »
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  • But the intent must be to baptise in some understanding of the Christian God.
    The Christian God is not the same as the christian god. 
    The Christian God = the Catholic God = the Triune God who was born of the Virgin Mary
    Most protestants and non-Catholics do not believe in the true God.


    Offline PositaSecuris

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    Re: Bp. Zendejas - Chrism Mass 2019 Sermon
    « Reply #17 on: July 16, 2020, 08:20:32 AM »
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  • But isn't the 'Chrism Mass' itself a Bugnini innovation? In the Missale Romanum published by Pope Pius V after the Sacred Council of Trent, and thereafter until Bugnini, Holy Oils are consecrated during the sole Mass on Maundy Thursday, not at a separate Mass.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Bp. Zendejas - Chrism Mass 2019 Sermon
    « Reply #18 on: July 16, 2020, 11:38:16 AM »
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  • But isn't the 'Chrism Mass' itself a Bugnini innovation? In the Missale Romanum published by Pope Pius V after the Sacred Council of Trent, and thereafter until Bugnini, Holy Oils are consecrated during the sole Mass on Maundy Thursday, not at a separate Mass.
    Do you have a reference to support that assertion?

    Offline PositaSecuris

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    Re: Bp. Zendejas - Chrism Mass 2019 Sermon
    « Reply #19 on: July 16, 2020, 12:07:02 PM »
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  • So sorry, I don't have a reference for the Missale Romanum, but perhaps someone has a copy to check. Someone called Rubricarius made the following comment elsewhere (http://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.com/2020/03/links.html?showComment=1585217767758#c8284231236485297038): Surely 'pre-Bugnini Chrism Masses' per se did not exist. Prior to 1956 in Cathedral churches Pontifical Mass with the Consecration of the Oils were celebrated on Maundy Thursday.


    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Bp. Zendejas - Chrism Mass 2019 Sermon
    « Reply #20 on: July 16, 2020, 02:29:22 PM »
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  • Surely 'pre-Bugnini Chrism Masses' per se did not exist. Prior to 1956 in Cathedral churches Pontifical Mass with the Consecration of the Oils were celebrated on Maundy Thursday.
    I suppose if the last supper mass is in the morning, there wouldn't be much time for another mass.
    The Gelasian sacramentary has separate Chrism and Last Supper masses for holy Thursday.  They must have merged before Trent. 

    Offline PositaSecuris

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    Re: Bp. Zendejas - Chrism Mass 2019 Sermon
    « Reply #21 on: July 16, 2020, 03:04:31 PM »
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  • I suppose if the last supper mass is in the morning, there wouldn't be much time for another mass.
    The Gelasian sacramentary has separate Chrism and Last Supper masses for holy Thursday.  They must have merged before Trent.
    Wow! Thank you for that excellent reference! It's great CathInfo has a liturgical scholar amongst its contributors. Do you know whether His Excellency used the Gelasian sacramentary's Chrism Mass?

    Offline claudel

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    Re: Bp. Zendejas - Chrism Mass 2019 Sermon
    « Reply #22 on: July 16, 2020, 03:35:53 PM »
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  • Taken in toto, the following six links suffice, I believe, to demonstrate persuasively* that before 1956 there was no such thing as a Chrism Mass and that the three kinds of reserved holy oil were consecrated EITHER during the Solemn High Mass on Holy Thursday celebrated by the diocesan ordinary OR in a special ceremony outside of mass on the same day, the performance of which was reserved to a diocesan ordinary or his equivalent (e.g., an abbot).

    Note that the stress placed on the preceding either-or construction is meant to indicate, not a permitted alternative, but an apparent contradiction between what is asserted in the second and third Catholic Encyclopedia articles linked below. My suspicion—as I have no probative or even persuasive evidence, that is all it is—is that the third article has been edited or revised at some time during the past thirty years. If, as I suspect, the second alternative is correct, it is probably also safe to assume that the CE's assertion that the special ceremony was instituted in the fifth century is correct.

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Maundy-Thursday#ref1254399
    http://modernmedievalism.blogspot.com/2018/03/hail-holy-chrism.html
    http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/sacraments-and-sacramentals/sacramentals-blessings/blessing-of-oils-and-consecration-of-chrism.cfm
    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07421b.htm
    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10068a.htm
    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03696b.htm
    _________________________

    *Please note the choice of words. I do not claim that the evidence presented is probative, simply strongly persuasive. Insofar as the pre-1956 ceremony is concerned, the evidence presented also corresponds with my own recollections of what I was taught by nuns and priests at that time, when the changes to the Holy Week liturgy were a very big deal for religious and laymen, old and young alike. (In the year 1956, I completed the sixth grade and started the seventh.)


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bp. Zendejas - Chrism Mass 2019 Sermon
    « Reply #23 on: July 16, 2020, 04:54:15 PM »
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  • From Pius XII’s Maxima Redemptions:

    7. On Holy Thursday, the Mass of the Chrism is celebrated after Terce, but the Mass of the Lord’s Supper must be celebrated in the evening, at the most suitable hour; not, however, before 5 nor after 8p.m.

    https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=11136

    Prior to this, there was no separate chrismal Mass:

    First, that before the Holy Week reforms of 1955 under Pius XII, there was no separate ritual Chrism Mass to speak of! Some of you liturgy enthusiasts out there already know that, in the rules of the Tridentine liturgy before 1955, all the Holy Week liturgies (and all other Masses through the year except for the midnight Mass of Christmas) were celebrated in the morning. The blessing of oils were performed by the bishop at the usual Mass of the Lord's Supper at the cathedral. Since parish priests would be celebrating the same Missa in Cena Domini at their parishes, there was no notion of gathering the whole presbytery together for one Mass, either.

    http://modernmedievalism.blogspot.com/2018/03/hail-holy-chrism.html?m=1
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bp. Zendejas - Chrism Mass 2019 Sermon
    « Reply #24 on: July 16, 2020, 05:10:44 PM »
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  • From Pius XII’s Maxima Redemptions:

    7. On Holy Thursday, the Mass of the Chrism is celebrated after Terce, but the Mass of the Lord’s Supper must be celebrated in the evening, at the most suitable hour; not, however, before 5 nor after 8p.m.

    https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=11136

    Prior to this, there was no separate chrismal Mass:

    First, that before the Holy Week reforms of 1955 under Pius XII, there was no separate ritual Chrism Mass to speak of! Some of you liturgy enthusiasts out there already know that, in the rules of the Tridentine liturgy before 1955, all the Holy Week liturgies (and all other Masses through the year except for the midnight Mass of Christmas) were celebrated in the morning. The blessing of oils were performed by the bishop at the usual Mass of the Lord's Supper at the cathedral. Since parish priests would be celebrating the same Missa in Cena Domini at their parishes, there was no notion of gathering the whole presbytery together for one Mass, either.

    http://modernmedievalism.blogspot.com/2018/03/hail-holy-chrism.html?m=1
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Bp. Zendejas - Chrism Mass 2019 Sermon
    « Reply #25 on: July 16, 2020, 09:28:17 PM »
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  • Do you know whether His Excellency used the Gelasian sacramentary's Chrism Mass?
    He probably used the Pius XII holy week, no?
    The Chrism mass from the Pius XIII holy week, however, probably came mostly from the Gelasian sacramentary.


    Offline For Greater Glory

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    Re: Bp. Zendejas - Chrism Mass 2019 Sermon
    « Reply #26 on: July 19, 2020, 11:51:17 PM »
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  • Regarding Baptism, Fr. Paul Trinchard (May he RIP) told us at a conference in New Orleans that many dioceses in the U. S. were using manuals with the intention that the child is born into the world which is in the state of original sin, not that the child had original sin. The society reconditionally baptized 3 of my children. I wasn't taking any chances, as you can't get into heaven without it.

    Offline Minnesota

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    Re: Bp. Zendejas - Chrism Mass 2019 Sermon
    « Reply #27 on: July 20, 2020, 07:26:35 AM »
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  • Regarding Baptism, Fr. Paul Trinchard (May he RIP) told us at a conference in New Orleans that many dioceses in the U. S. were using manuals with the intention that the child is born into the world which is in the state of original sin, not that the child had original sin. The society reconditionally baptized 3 of my children. I wasn't taking any chances, as you can't get into heaven without it.
    Oh wow. That... is actually pretty scary. 
    Christ is Risen! He is risen indeed